Who's talking here?
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I think God is talking here.
Did you read Progod's article? -
No, because nobody linked it for me. Why should I pm someone for an article when it can just be linked or posted here.
If God is talking, then I find it quite odd that he refers to himself not as I or we as Allah always does, but instead refers to himself by a title (Lord of the...), much as one would do if they were referring to someone else and not themselves. Also, what's pretty odd is that Allah swears by himself. Put in plain language, it would mean "I swear by myself". Nobody says that, and I don't think the Quran is saying that. So far, to me, it looks like "we" in that sentence is not referring to Allah through the majestic plural in this particular odd case, but is instead referring to Muhammad and Allah. In this case, the "we" appears to be literal and not majestic plural, based on the context of the sentence as a whole..
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God swears by the great things, and since He is the greatest ever, I see no problem in that verse. You do not swear by yourself because you are just as normal human being as anybody else in this world. There is nothing like God however.
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God swears by the great things, and since He is the greatest ever, I see no problem in that verse.
Where does Allah swear by himself?
You do not swear by yourself because you are just as normal human being as anybody else in this world. There is nothing like God however.
Doesn't matter. Allah continually swears by things in nature that we can see, but never swears by himself because that would be an awkward statement.
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Where does Allah swear by himself?
In this verse that we are talking about?
Doesn't matter. Allah continually swears by things in nature that we can see, but never swears by himself because that would be an awkward statement.
Yes it does. God can swear by anything He deems great.
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Just this one time? Hmmmm.....pardon me while I'm a bit skeptical.
Why be skeptical? I believe God swears with many things in the Quran just one time. I am not sure if He swears by Himself in other verses. Again I see no problems here.
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Why be skeptical? I believe God swears with many things in the Quran just one time. I am not sure if He swears by Himself in other verses. Again I see no problems here.
He doesn't swear by himself anywhere else. He swears by the stars, waters or whatever, but never by himself because swearing by one's self is an awkward statement. So i don't think he's swearing by himself even in this verse. And look at the first part. It doesn't say "I" or "We" like it normally does when Allah refers to himself, it instead refers to a title (Lord of the...) as one would reference when speaking of someone else and not referring to themselves.
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He doesn't swear by himself anywhere else.
Irrelevant, if true in the first place.
He swears by the stars, waters or whatever
He often swears by them just once.
but never by himself because swearing by one's self is an awkward statement.
No, it is not, and I explained above why.
So i don't think he's swearing by himself even in this verse.
He definitely is.
And look at the first part. It doesn't say "I" or "We" like it normally does when Allah refers to himself, it instead refers to a title (Lord of the...) as one would reference when speaking of someone else and not referring to themselves.
God refers to Himself by the "Lord of..." in many other verses. Check 17102, 1965, 2386, 7122 etc...
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Irrelevant, if true in the first place.
Totally relevant. What, do you just call something you don't like irrelevant and suddenly, by default, it's irrelevant? I don't think so.
He often swears by them just once.No, it is not, and I explained above why.He definitely is.God refers to Himself by the "Lord of..." in many other verses. Check 17102,
017.102
YUSUFALI Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!"So here, it's Moses talking, referring to God as the Lord of the Heavens. So i don't know why you mentioned this verse.
1965,
019.064
YUSUFALI (The angels say) "We descend not but by command of thy Lord to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between and thy Lord never doth forget,019.065
YUSUFALI "Lord of the heavens and of the earth, and of all that is between them; so worship Him, and be constant and patient in His worship knowest thou of any who is worthy of the same Name as He?"So here, it is the angels talking
2386,
023.086
YUSUFALI Say "Who is the Lord of the seven heavens, and the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme?"And this is Muhammad talking because it uses the infamous "say"
7122 etc...
007.120
YUSUFALI But the sorcerers fell down prostrate in adoration.007.121
YUSUFALI Saying "We believe in the Lord of the Worlds,-007.122
YUSUFALI "The Lord of Moses and Aaron."And here, we have the sorcerers speaking. so i still have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. it just simply isn't there.
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019.064
YUSUFALI (The angels say "We descend not but by command of thy Lord to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between and thy Lord never doth forget,019.065
YUSUFALI "Lord of the heavens and of the earth, and of all that is between them; so worship Him, and be constant and patient in His worship knowest thou of any who is worthy of the same Name as He?"So here, it is the angels talking
Please post the original Arabic and highlight where you got "the angels" from. Such deception...
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We descend not but by command of thy Lord
Who is "thy" lord? Why is it used? Because YusufAli correctly translated that it was the angels talking
1964 (The angels say) "We descend not but by command of thy Lord to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between and thy Lord never doth forget,- - English
Topics discussed in this Verse
Wama natanazzalu illa biamri rabbika lahu ma bayna aydeena wama khalfana wama bayna thalika wama kana rabbuka nasiyyan
019064
019064 Khan And we (angels) descend not except by the Command of your Lord (O Muhammad SAW). To Him belongs what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between those two, and your Lord is never forgetful,
019064 Maulana And we descend not but by the command of thy Lord. To Him belongs what is before us and what is behind us and what is between these, and thy Lord is never forgetful.
019064 Pickthal We (angels) come not down save by commandment of thy Lord. Unto Him belongeth all that is before us and all that is behind us and all that is between those two, and thy Lord was never forgetful -
019064 Rashad We do not come down except by the command of your Lord. To Him belongs our past, our future, and everything between them. Your Lord is never forgetful.
019064 Sarwar (Muhammad), we (the angels) do not come to you without being commanded by your Lord to do so. To Him belongs all that is before us, behind us, and in between. Your Lord is not forgetful.
019064 Shakir And we do not descend but by the command of your Lord; to Him belongs whatever is before us and whatever is behind us and whatever is between these, and your Lord is not forgetful.
019064 Sherali And the angels will say to them, `We do not come down save by the command of thy Lord. To HIM belongs all that is before us and all that is behind us and all that is between; and thy Lord is not forgetful;'
019064 Yusufali (The angels say) "We descend not but by command of thy Lord to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between and thy Lord never doth forget,-
019065
019065 Khan Lord of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, so worship Him (Alone) and be constant and patient in His worship. Do you know of any who is similar to Him? (of course none is similar or coequal or comparable to Him, and He has none as partner with Him). .
019065 Maulana Lord of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, so serve Him and be patient in His service. Knowest thou any one equal to Him?
019065 Pickthal Lord of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them! Therefor, worship thou Him and be thou steadfast in His service. Knowest thou one that can be named along with Him?
019065 Rashad The Lord of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them; you shall worship Him and steadfastly persevere in worshipping Him. Do you know of anyone who equals Him?
019065 Sarwar He is the Lord of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. Worship Him and be steadfast in your worship of Him; none is equal to Him.
019065 Shakir The Lord of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, so serve Him and be patient in His service. Do you know any one equal to Him?
019065 Sherali HE is the Lord of the heavens and the earth and all that is between the two. Serve HIM, therefore, and be steadfast in HIS service. Dost thou know anyone equal to HIM?
019065 Yusufali "Lord of the heavens and of the earth, and of all that is between them; so worship Him, and be constant and patient in His worship knowest thou of any who is worthy of the same Name as He??
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I want the "angels" part of the Arabic text highlighted. Either I am blind, or it isn't there.
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I don't know arabic so I can't tell you, but it certainly can't be God speaking because of this
"We descend not but by command of thy Lord" God descends not by the command of thy lord? Huh? So we don't even need to see angels in the Arabic to know that this isn't Allah taking. So the translators probably filled in Angels for perhaps some larger understanding of the context
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Totally relevant. What, do you just call something you don't like irrelevant and suddenly, by default, it's irrelevant? I don't think so.
I say it's irrelevant, if it's true in the first place, because God swears by many things just once in the Quran.
so i still have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. it just simply isn't there.
It does not matter whether who says who. The fact is, God is refered in the Quran (Which was inspired by Him) as the "Lord of..." many times. Refer to 754, God talks about Himself in that verse and numerous others.
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I say it's irrelevant, if it's true in the first place, because God swears by many things just once in the Quran.It does not matter whether who says who. The fact is, God is refered in the Quran (Which was inspired by Him) as the "Lord of..." many times. Refer to 754, God talks about Himself in that verse and numerous others.
754 Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority) He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!
Actually, 754 is a very interesting verse. I knew that Allah referred to himself as I or we, but I never knew he referred to himself as "he". Wow, this just gets crazier and crazier. This is like someone who forgot to take their multiple personality disorder meds. Seems like Muhammad gets confused about who he's supposed to be from all that I, we, he, switching around.
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I don't know arabic so I can't tell you, but it certainly can't be God speaking because of this
"We descend not but by command of thy Lord" God descends not by the command of thy lord? Huh? So we don't even need to see angels in the Arabic to know that this isn't Allah taking. So the translators probably filled in Angels for perhaps some larger understanding of the context
You are getting closer, but still miles off. I suggest you follow the original advice and find Progod's thread, because it would have rendered this particular thread utterly redundant.
In any case, until you can come back here and highlight clearly where that verse mentions "angels" and give the evidence as requested,
DISMISSED!
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754 Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority) He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!
Actually, 754 is a very interesting verse. I knew that Allah referred to himself as I or we, but I never knew he referred to himself as "he". Wow, this just gets crazier and crazier. This is like someone who forgot to take their multiple personality disorder meds. Seems like Muhammad gets confused about who he's supposed to be from all that I, we, he, switching around.
You are now deviating from the topic. I gave you a verse where God refers to Himself as the "Lord of the worlds". In Arabic language, "he" does not always refer to gender.
