Who's talking here?
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Just this one time? Hmmmm.....pardon me while I'm a bit skeptical.
Why be skeptical? I believe God swears with many things in the Quran just one time. I am not sure if He swears by Himself in other verses. Again I see no problems here.
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Why be skeptical? I believe God swears with many things in the Quran just one time. I am not sure if He swears by Himself in other verses. Again I see no problems here.
He doesn't swear by himself anywhere else. He swears by the stars, waters or whatever, but never by himself because swearing by one's self is an awkward statement. So i don't think he's swearing by himself even in this verse. And look at the first part. It doesn't say "I" or "We" like it normally does when Allah refers to himself, it instead refers to a title (Lord of the...) as one would reference when speaking of someone else and not referring to themselves.
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He doesn't swear by himself anywhere else.
Irrelevant, if true in the first place.
He swears by the stars, waters or whatever
He often swears by them just once.
but never by himself because swearing by one's self is an awkward statement.
No, it is not, and I explained above why.
So i don't think he's swearing by himself even in this verse.
He definitely is.
And look at the first part. It doesn't say "I" or "We" like it normally does when Allah refers to himself, it instead refers to a title (Lord of the...) as one would reference when speaking of someone else and not referring to themselves.
God refers to Himself by the "Lord of..." in many other verses. Check 17102, 1965, 2386, 7122 etc...
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Irrelevant, if true in the first place.
Totally relevant. What, do you just call something you don't like irrelevant and suddenly, by default, it's irrelevant? I don't think so.
He often swears by them just once.No, it is not, and I explained above why.He definitely is.God refers to Himself by the "Lord of..." in many other verses. Check 17102,
017.102
YUSUFALI Moses said, "Thou knowest well that these things have been sent down by none but the Lord of the heavens and the earth as eye-opening evidence and I consider thee indeed, O Pharaoh, to be one doomed to destruction!"So here, it's Moses talking, referring to God as the Lord of the Heavens. So i don't know why you mentioned this verse.
1965,
019.064
YUSUFALI (The angels say) "We descend not but by command of thy Lord to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between and thy Lord never doth forget,019.065
YUSUFALI "Lord of the heavens and of the earth, and of all that is between them; so worship Him, and be constant and patient in His worship knowest thou of any who is worthy of the same Name as He?"So here, it is the angels talking
2386,
023.086
YUSUFALI Say "Who is the Lord of the seven heavens, and the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme?"And this is Muhammad talking because it uses the infamous "say"
7122 etc...
007.120
YUSUFALI But the sorcerers fell down prostrate in adoration.007.121
YUSUFALI Saying "We believe in the Lord of the Worlds,-007.122
YUSUFALI "The Lord of Moses and Aaron."And here, we have the sorcerers speaking. so i still have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. it just simply isn't there.
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019.064
YUSUFALI (The angels say "We descend not but by command of thy Lord to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between and thy Lord never doth forget,019.065
YUSUFALI "Lord of the heavens and of the earth, and of all that is between them; so worship Him, and be constant and patient in His worship knowest thou of any who is worthy of the same Name as He?"So here, it is the angels talking
Please post the original Arabic and highlight where you got "the angels" from. Such deception...
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We descend not but by command of thy Lord
Who is "thy" lord? Why is it used? Because YusufAli correctly translated that it was the angels talking
1964 (The angels say) "We descend not but by command of thy Lord to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between and thy Lord never doth forget,- - English
Topics discussed in this Verse
Wama natanazzalu illa biamri rabbika lahu ma bayna aydeena wama khalfana wama bayna thalika wama kana rabbuka nasiyyan
019064
019064 Khan And we (angels) descend not except by the Command of your Lord (O Muhammad SAW). To Him belongs what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between those two, and your Lord is never forgetful,
019064 Maulana And we descend not but by the command of thy Lord. To Him belongs what is before us and what is behind us and what is between these, and thy Lord is never forgetful.
019064 Pickthal We (angels) come not down save by commandment of thy Lord. Unto Him belongeth all that is before us and all that is behind us and all that is between those two, and thy Lord was never forgetful -
019064 Rashad We do not come down except by the command of your Lord. To Him belongs our past, our future, and everything between them. Your Lord is never forgetful.
019064 Sarwar (Muhammad), we (the angels) do not come to you without being commanded by your Lord to do so. To Him belongs all that is before us, behind us, and in between. Your Lord is not forgetful.
019064 Shakir And we do not descend but by the command of your Lord; to Him belongs whatever is before us and whatever is behind us and whatever is between these, and your Lord is not forgetful.
019064 Sherali And the angels will say to them, `We do not come down save by the command of thy Lord. To HIM belongs all that is before us and all that is behind us and all that is between; and thy Lord is not forgetful;'
019064 Yusufali (The angels say) "We descend not but by command of thy Lord to Him belongeth what is before us and what is behind us, and what is between and thy Lord never doth forget,-
019065
019065 Khan Lord of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, so worship Him (Alone) and be constant and patient in His worship. Do you know of any who is similar to Him? (of course none is similar or coequal or comparable to Him, and He has none as partner with Him). .
019065 Maulana Lord of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, so serve Him and be patient in His service. Knowest thou any one equal to Him?
019065 Pickthal Lord of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them! Therefor, worship thou Him and be thou steadfast in His service. Knowest thou one that can be named along with Him?
019065 Rashad The Lord of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them; you shall worship Him and steadfastly persevere in worshipping Him. Do you know of anyone who equals Him?
019065 Sarwar He is the Lord of the heavens and the earth and all that is between them. Worship Him and be steadfast in your worship of Him; none is equal to Him.
019065 Shakir The Lord of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, so serve Him and be patient in His service. Do you know any one equal to Him?
019065 Sherali HE is the Lord of the heavens and the earth and all that is between the two. Serve HIM, therefore, and be steadfast in HIS service. Dost thou know anyone equal to HIM?
019065 Yusufali "Lord of the heavens and of the earth, and of all that is between them; so worship Him, and be constant and patient in His worship knowest thou of any who is worthy of the same Name as He??
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I want the "angels" part of the Arabic text highlighted. Either I am blind, or it isn't there.
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I don't know arabic so I can't tell you, but it certainly can't be God speaking because of this
"We descend not but by command of thy Lord" God descends not by the command of thy lord? Huh? So we don't even need to see angels in the Arabic to know that this isn't Allah taking. So the translators probably filled in Angels for perhaps some larger understanding of the context
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Totally relevant. What, do you just call something you don't like irrelevant and suddenly, by default, it's irrelevant? I don't think so.
I say it's irrelevant, if it's true in the first place, because God swears by many things just once in the Quran.
so i still have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. it just simply isn't there.
It does not matter whether who says who. The fact is, God is refered in the Quran (Which was inspired by Him) as the "Lord of..." many times. Refer to 754, God talks about Himself in that verse and numerous others.
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I say it's irrelevant, if it's true in the first place, because God swears by many things just once in the Quran.It does not matter whether who says who. The fact is, God is refered in the Quran (Which was inspired by Him) as the "Lord of..." many times. Refer to 754, God talks about Himself in that verse and numerous others.
754 Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority) He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!
Actually, 754 is a very interesting verse. I knew that Allah referred to himself as I or we, but I never knew he referred to himself as "he". Wow, this just gets crazier and crazier. This is like someone who forgot to take their multiple personality disorder meds. Seems like Muhammad gets confused about who he's supposed to be from all that I, we, he, switching around.
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I don't know arabic so I can't tell you, but it certainly can't be God speaking because of this
"We descend not but by command of thy Lord" God descends not by the command of thy lord? Huh? So we don't even need to see angels in the Arabic to know that this isn't Allah taking. So the translators probably filled in Angels for perhaps some larger understanding of the context
You are getting closer, but still miles off. I suggest you follow the original advice and find Progod's thread, because it would have rendered this particular thread utterly redundant.
In any case, until you can come back here and highlight clearly where that verse mentions "angels" and give the evidence as requested,
DISMISSED!
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754 Your Guardian-Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority) He draweth the night as a veil o'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds!
Actually, 754 is a very interesting verse. I knew that Allah referred to himself as I or we, but I never knew he referred to himself as "he". Wow, this just gets crazier and crazier. This is like someone who forgot to take their multiple personality disorder meds. Seems like Muhammad gets confused about who he's supposed to be from all that I, we, he, switching around.
You are now deviating from the topic. I gave you a verse where God refers to Himself as the "Lord of the worlds". In Arabic language, "he" does not always refer to gender.
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You are getting closer, but still miles off. I suggest you follow the original advice and find Progod's thread, because it would have rendered this particular thread utterly redundant.
Why don't you just link it as I asked before?
In any case, until you can come back here and highlight clearly where that verse mentions "angels" and give the evidence as requested,
Even without it saying angels, you have to explain this
"We descend not but by command of thy Lord"
but you continually refuse to do so. So even if it isn't the Angels talking, as the translators probably correctly assumed, it still isn't Allah talking. So you have still done absolutely nothing to solve the problem.
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Why don't you just link it as I asked before?
Even without it saying angels, you have to explain this
"We descend not but by command of thy Lord"
but you continually refuse to do so. So even if it isn't the Angels talking, as the translators probably correctly assumed, it still isn't Allah talking. So you have still done absolutely nothing to solve the problem.
I have pointed you to the solution of the problem, which is for you to find Progod's article. )
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Why don't you just link it as I asked before?
Salaam
Here's the link
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14531.msg132914#msg132914
And I hope you listen to this advice There are many things in the qur'aan that we cannot claim to know or grasp, such as "jinns" or even heavens and earth, simply because in real life these things are not yet finally determined, so you cannot argue against the qur'aan based on these understandings. Try to be humble and less aggressive if you really want to exchange knowledge. Otherwise, continue the antagonism and shortly you will not find anyone to debate with you. You are not the only one on this forum who does not believe that the qur'aan is not the word of God, but the others would tone down the "is not" to a "may not be", and this is the language of the intellectuals. Don't revert to the language of the ignorant.
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Salaam
Here's the link
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14531.msg132914#msg132914
And I hope you listen to this advice
Why would you hope that? Because it would make you feel better? Make you feel more confident of your treasured ideas?
There are many things in the qur'aan that we cannot claim to know or grasp, such as "jinns" or even heavens and earth, simply because in real life these things are not yet finally determined, so you cannot argue against the qur'aan based on these understandings. Try to be humble and less aggressive if you really want to exchange knowledge. Otherwise, continue the antagonism and shortly you will not find anyone to debate with you. You are not the only one on this forum who does not believe that the qur'aan is not the word of God, but the others would tone down the "is not" to a "may not be", and this is the language of the intellectuals. Don't revert to the language of the ignorant.
What this tells me, is that you are more interested in your personal feelings than the truth. Otherwise, this would be irrelevant. Have you seen how many people try to insult me, and laugh at me? Go look. But if you'll notice, it makes absolutely no difference to me. The point is the point is the point is the point. I do not let personal, emotional rants distract me because they cloud thought. Are you being clouded?
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Salaam
Here's the link
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14531.msg132914#msg132914
This doesn't answer the point as far as I could tell.It just explains we as majestic plural. I already knew that, but in the case of the verse I'm talking about in this thread, it is not majestic plural. Just to be perfectly clear, I am isolating this particular verse because I don't think it fits the majestic plural pattern like the other ones might. So do you see what I am saying now? If that thread you linked addressed the exact verse I'm talking about, then please point it out to me as I didn't see it. Thank you.