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  4. How do you pray?

How do you pray?

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  • S Offline
    S Offline
    Samia
    wrote on last edited by
    #29

    I thought you might answer that.

    Maybe its called Wusta rotfl

    If what you are saying, that isha starts from sunset , is correct than you are right that dullok of the sun till ghasaq of the night means isha. However the verses says from dulook of the sun TILL the darkness of the night. You in fact says it means the approaches of the night. Thats maghrib as we know it. Its exactly from sunset till the sky gets dark. Isn't it?

    Salaam Bigmo

    Ishaa starts from sunset. Scholars differ as when it ends, but that's not important for what we are disacussing. Since ishaa starts from sunset "maghrib", and continues till ghasaq of the night, all this period has one salaat after its name salaatul ishaa. Any other claimed salaat has to be before sunset or after ghasaqil lail and before dawn. Such salaat does not exist according to the many verses posted here.

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      Bigmo
      wrote on last edited by
      #30

      Salaam Bigmo

      Ishaa starts from sunset. Scholars differ as when it ends, but that's not important for what we are disacussing. Since ishaa starts from sunset "maghrib", and continues till ghasaq of the night, all this period has one salaat after its name salaatul ishaa. Any other claimed salaat has to be before sunset or after ghasaqil lail and before dawn. Such salaat does not exist according to the many verses posted here.

      Which scholars said that? Arabic scholars? I got this from a website

      Maghrib time Is the time of sunset, which is when the sun completely below the horizon.

      Isha time The Jafari define the time of Isha as the time following Maghrib prayer. All other schools define it as when the radish after glow on the western horizon vanishes.
      As there is disagreement between the schools of religious law (Fiqh) about the definition of prayer times, there is also disagreement within the same school of law. One such example is Maghrib time. Some people believe Maghrib time is the time when eastern twilight vanishes while others declare it as the time of sunset. Any prayer time calculating program can not satisfy all the ideas and interpretations. Therefore, the definition satisfying the majority of Muslims is chosen. In addition, options are provided to the users to adjust the program to achieve desired result. In the case of Maghrib time, an option is provided to add minutes to the calculated Maghrib time.

      http//www.yanabi.com/activeweb.cfm?a_id=1033

      Others defined Isha as dusk till dawn and maghrib as sunset till dusk.

      Dusk is defined as

      darker stage of twilight, especially in the evening.
      adj.
      Tending to darkness; dusky.
      intr. & tr.v. dusked, dusk?ing, dusks
      To become or make dark or dusky.

      dusk - the time of day immediately following sunset; "he loved the twilight"; "they finished before the fall of night"

      Tending to darkness or blackness; moderately dark or black; dusky.


      Imperfect obscurity; a middle degree between light and darkness; twilight; as, the dusk of the evening.


      A darkish color.

      Also

      Dusk -- Same as Civil Dusk; the time at which the sun is 6 degrees below the horizon in the evening. At this time objects are distinguishable but there is no longer enough light to perform any outdoor activities

      Also

      Evening is the period in which the daylight is decreasing, between the late afternoon and night, around the time when dinner is taken. Though the term is subjective, evening is typically understood to begin just before twilight, sunset, during the close of the standard business day, 4 pm ? and extend until night ? typically astronomical sunset, 9 pm.

      Also

      formal definition is used for religious purposes. For instance, the Israelite priesthood of the Old Testament in the Bible, was required to perform certain duties "at even(ing)". However, this definition is controversial. There are two prevailing views

      The last quarter of the daylight portion of the day, before sunset. This view was held by the Jewish Pharisees and is supported in historical references such as Josephus and the Bible.

      The twilight before dark, after sunset. This view was held by the Samaritans and the Karaites.

      The Bible uses a term for the period of time between two distinct evenings "beyn ha arbayim" translated as "between the two evenings". Though both of the above camps define one of the evenings as sunset, the other is controversial. From the passages in Matthew 2746, 57 and Mark 1534, 42, the New Testament clearly supports the first evening to be the ninth 'hour' of the day (an hour in the Bible defined as 1/12th of the daylight portion of the day), and the second evening, that ends the day, at sunset.

      Also

      Evening the period following sunset with which the Jewish day began (Gen. 15; Mark 1335). The Hebrews reckoned two evenings of each day, as appears from Ex. 1612 308; 126 (marg.); Lev. 235 (marg. R.V., "between the two evenings&quot. The "first evening" was that period when the sun was verging towards setting, and the "second evening" the moment of actual sunset. The word "evenings" in Jer. 56 should be "deserts" (marg. R.V.).

      Definition Nighttime

      The time between sunset and sunrise.
      adj.
      Occurring in or appropriate for use during the night

      night?time? (tm&#8242
      noun

      the time between dusk and dawn; also, the time between sunset and sunrise

      So so far Samia you are doing good. Your definition seems stronger than mine. But then we are left with "wusta" &

      You know some Arabic scholars who can define Isha?

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      • S Offline
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        Samia
        wrote on last edited by
        #31

        Salaam Bigmo

        http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14793.msg149862#msg149862

        Scan the word (wasat) in the quraan and you will find that the only meaning used is "balanced". I also feel that it cannot mean "middle prayer" if Gof did not mention a name for it. If it is so importatnt, why was it not mentioned in verse 2458; whereas the other two prayers were mentioned by name (fajr and isha)?

        Scholars do not agree on wusta, even as middle prayer, and balanced parayer is also an option according to them (see link provided).

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          Jack
          wrote on last edited by
          #32

          Salaam Samia,

          So what does 'balanced salat' mean in 2238? What is the 'balanced salat'?

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          • B Offline
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            Bigmo
            wrote on last edited by
            #33

            Salaam Samia,

            So what does 'balanced salat' mean in 2238? What is the 'balanced salat'?

            I think she means moderatation. Probably not too long or too short or not to fanatical. However salat al wusta sounds like a noun.

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            • S Offline
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              Samia
              wrote on last edited by
              #34

              I think she means moderatation. Probably not too long or too short or not to fanatical.

              Thanks.

              However salat al wusta sounds like a noun.

              It is a noun ;D

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                Bigmo
                wrote on last edited by
                #35

                Thanks.

                It is a noun ;D

                2.238. Guard strictly your prayers, especially the Wusta Prayer; and stand before God in a devout (frame of mind).

                However salawaat is plural. Meaning more than two. It did not say salatayn, meaning the 2 salaat.

                So how do you explain this?

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                • S Offline
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                  Samia
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #36

                  2.238. Guard strictly your prayers, especially the Wusta Prayer; and stand before God in a devout (frame of mind).

                  However salawaat is plural. Meaning more than two. It did not say salatayn, meaning the 2 salaat.

                  So how do you explain this?

                  Taking into consideration the day of the congregational salaat, where we have three salaats, it cannot mean your daily salaat.

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                    Bigmo
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #37

                    Taking into consideration the day of the congregational salaat, where we have three salaats, it cannot mean your daily salaat.

                    So you do believe that wusta means friday prayers? Or you just believe that the plural is about the congregation prayers?

                    Whats your view, if I may ask, about congregation prayers?

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                    • S Offline
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                      Samia
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #38

                      So you do believe that wusta means friday prayers? Or you just believe that the plural is about the congregation prayers?

                      Whats your view, if I may ask, about congregation prayers?

                      1. I was replying as to why it is "salawaat plural" and not "salaatain dual".
                        I believe wusta is moderate.

                      2. I believe it is a salaat that's performed by a group and has to be given priority over work.

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                      • P Offline
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                        progod
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #39

                        Peace,

                        who said that the Quran says that you have to bow and prostrate? The only thing I see that the Quran IMPLIES that we do when we pray is to kneel or bow in some way. So I can't answer that pole because none of it applies to me. Somtimes I make the movements like i did when I was a Sunni, but just praise God and meditate on him, saying Allahu Akbaru at every change and some times I just kneel down a pray. I let all that prescribed lines alone along time ago. I pray at least twice a day at dawn including the twilight and at dusk including twilight including the adjoining times of night. I pray within these time ranges (beginning of day and end of day). But I think that pole should be redone and should state whether anyone prays whoever they want traditional movements and sayings or not as long as they are praying to God.

                        Godbless,
                        ANwar

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                        • I Offline
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                          IronSky
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #40

                          Peace to all,

                          Progod, actually the Quran does say many times to prostrate and pray, not just kneel or bow, prostrate means to fall to the ground with your face on the floor.

                          Heres an articles with some verse about prostrating in the Quran.

                          http//aaiil.org/text/hq/art/others/prostrate.shtml

                          Kurt

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                          • B Offline
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                            Bigmo
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #41
                            1. I was replying as to why it is "salawaat plural" and not "salaatain dual".
                              I believe wusta is moderate.

                            2. I believe it is a salaat that's performed by a group and has to be given priority over work.

                            What do you think of this analysis

                            Note that ( &#1609 in (Sura Al-Baqarah 223 and ( ) in (Sura Al-Isra 177 are the same "Salat" because these both ?Salat? has (&#1604 common with them indicating that these are the same ?Salat? as compared to ( &#1616 and ( &#1616 which are without (&#1604 with word (&#1616. (&#1604 in Arabic is equivalent to the word ?The? in English, indicating the importance of the middle prayer.

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                              Samia
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #42

                              What do you think of this analysis

                              Note that ( &#1609 in (Sura Al-Baqarah 223 and ( ) in (Sura Al-Isra 177 are the same "Salat" because these both ?Salat? has (&#1604 common with them indicating that these are the same ?Salat? as compared to ( &#1616 and ( &#1616 which are without (&#1604 with word (&#1616. (&#1604 in Arabic is equivalent to the word ?The? in English, indicating the importance of the middle prayer.

                              Which "BOOK" is more definite in these three phrases

                              The BOOK
                              The History BOOK
                              The BOOK of History?

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                                ayani
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #43

                                Iron that is an awesome website. the Ahmadiyya are an interesting bunch.

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                                • J Offline
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                                  Jack
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #44

                                  Peace all,

                                  Progod, actually the Quran does say many times to prostrate and pray, not just kneel or bow, prostrate means to fall to the ground with your face on the floor.

                                  1. pray = dua, salaat is entirely something else. Even the birds know their 'salaat' (2441)

                                  2. If prostrate was limited to what you are suggesting the proper 'sujjud' would be falling to the chin, not the face (17107).

                                  I'll give you some examples of how sujjud=traditionally translated as 'prostrate as in to fall down on to your forehead' cannot possibly fit

                                  258 And We said "Enter this town, and eat from it as plentifully as you wish. And enter the passageway by crouching (sujjadan), and say "Our load is removed," so that your errors will be forgiven, and We will increase for the good doers."

                                  1315 And to God prostrate (yasjudu) all who are in the heavens and the Earth, willingly and unwillingly, as do their shadows in the morning and the evening.

                                  1649 And to God prostrate (yasjudu) all those in the heavens and all those on the Earth, from the creatures as well as the angels, and they are not arrogant.

                                  2218 Did you not see that to God prostrates (yasjudu) what is in the heavens and what is in the Earth, and the sun and the moon and the stars and the mountains and the trees and what moves, and many of the people, and many who have deserved the retribution. And whoever God disgraces, then none can honor him. God does what He pleases.

                                  Be weary of articles, the linked article was far from objective. Nor did it display any arabic. Many articles, even at this site can be misleading. Do the proper research yourself. Remember 1736

                                  The tools I use to study are

                                  http//www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/

                                  http//www.submission.org/quran/webqt.php

                                  http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

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                                    ignoramus
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #45

                                    salam

                                    sujood can have a metaphorical meaning in some parts of the Quran, yet still mean a physical prostration regarding salat.

                                    salam

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                                      progod
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #46

                                      Peace,

                                      Only kharra lil-adhqaani can imply prostration. However it is literally falling to ones chin! Adhqaan is the plural of chin or beard. When you prostrate do you prostrate on your chin? Furthermore those verses that mention that mention the reaction of the faithful to the message. No one literally falls to their chins! This is obviously an expression. If we are going to look at it literally the word can only mean 'to fall to your chin' in whch case I can only image someonee sitting down holding their chins in through or awe.

                                      Also sajada can mean to prostrate or to venerate. I think from its usage in the Quran its primary meaning is to venerate and that the old way of doing this was to prostrate. Especially considering that masjid is a place of veneration can apply to any place of worship. So honestly I think that the real meaning here is the veneration, as well as the bowing or even prostration in veneration. In my eyes all of these count. and raka&a is the real command to bow or kneel with no ambiguities.

                                      Godbless,
                                      Anwar

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                                      • I Offline
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                                        IronSky
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #47

                                        Peace to all,

                                        I understand what your saying progod, i have no problem with anyone who doesnt actually prostrate themselves physically, i myslef do it and believe its important but thats just me, i feel need to submit myslef physically not just mentally, also doesnt a verse in the Quran say that you will see the marks of the submitters on their foreheads because of their prostration, this cant be metaphorical too can it.

                                        PICKTHAL Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing and falling prostrate (in worship), seeking bounty from Allah and (His) acceptance. The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel - like as sown corn that sendeth forth its shoot and strengtheneth it and riseth firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers - that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them. Allah hath promised, unto such of them as believe and do good works, forgiveness and immense reward.

                                        Kurt

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                                          progod
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #48

                                          Peace,

                                          I hate to say but yes this can also be literal or metaphorical. wajh does not necessarily have to be face. the Quran uses wajhun sometimes more like selves or souls. The verse literally says "seemaa hum fee wujoohihim min athari sujoodihim"

                                          If you look up marks in a Quran search and see seemaa this doesn't have to be physical mark, it can also be a characteristic. Wajh as i explain can be face, countenance or self/soul and sujood veneration. Is it possible to see the marks/characteristics of worship/veneration in a a person or even in his face when you come across him. Very possible. Especially since the sentence before that is 'taraa hum rukka&an sujjadan yabtighoona fadlan min allahi wa ridwaan' This is indicating that you will see the signs and affect of worship on them when you see them bowing and worshipping.' I can't really even add to that, and I don't think I should have to .

                                          Godbless,
                                          Anwar

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