Using the word "muslim" in an english conversation

ImamQuranonly

As-Salaamu Alaikum all on this thread,

I haven't followed this thread for quite some time and just got a chance to read the last page. To sum up my position of all the excellent points on here, I simply quote M-Mehdi's last response below. I understand other's intent and reasons, but the fact of the matter is that when you translate it, it will only create "your" understanding of the term that can be different from person to person. The issue is still not solved by translating "muslim" to "one who submits" or "one who is at peace or peaceful", or whatever. Last I also checked, a proper noun is a NAME, not a description. I am not an english major or grammarian, so don't hold me to it if I am wrong. But "muslim" is a descriptive title, not a name.

Either way, I don't think there is any compulsion for anyone. If you like to translate it, cool. If I don't like to translate it, why does it bother you how I describe myself to other people? Why try to convince me that I am wrong to do such or that your way is better? Did Allah address this in Al Quran? Even though you (being whomever) and I agree that we both follow the Quran only, that doesn't mean that we beleive the same things about "Islam" and "muslim".

As-Salaamu Alaikum, peace

Salam,

With all due respect, your stated problem and solution are one and the same.

If "problems" arise "even" with those who "speak arabic" and "even native arabic speakers" then what makes you think that the same so called "problems" would not arise with "even" those who "speak english" and "even" with "native english speakers"?

Apparently not.

peace.

Jack

wa alaykum imamQuranonly

Why try to convince me that I am wrong to do such or that your way is better? Did Allah address this in Al Quran? Even though you (being whomever) and I agree that we both follow the Quran only, that doesn't mean that we beleive the same things about "Islam" and "muslim".

11118 And had your Lord wished, He could have made all the people one nation, but they still would continue to disagree.

SAbboushi

Fahad posted a link to an article named "Can a non-muslim be a muslim?" (? Reply #59 on April 10, 2007, 083027 AM ?)

I am no longer able to access the article using that link, and so I am posting the article here

Can a non-Muslim be a muslim?
Published February 26th, 2007 Al Kitab , Fahad , Muslims , Traditionalism , Quran , culture , Islam 0 Comments
The word ?muslim? is nowadays used as a label. It has become a cultural thing (like Islamic names, Islamic art, Islamic architecture etc). If you are born in a family labeled ?Muslim?, you automatically become one. The word is now used for the so-called followers of Al-Quran, or those who hold the book ?sacred?.

But that?s not how Al-Quran has used the word ?muslim?. On the contrary, according to Al-Quran, a muslim is the one who submits to the law of God, even without Al-Quran. Yes, you can be a muslim even before coming across and believing in Al-Quran, if you had already submitted to God?s law.

Al-Quran calls such muslimeen ?those who are given al-kitaab/kitaabillah by God?

28/52 Those to whom We gave al-kitaab from before this, they will believe in it.
28/53 And when it is recited to them, they say ?We believe in it. Surely it is the truth from our Lord. Indeed, we were already muslimeen/submitters from before it.?

?
Fahad

tarikh

Peace, i feel the same as you. I call myself a quranic monotheist. Simple. God understands why we would want to avoid using the word muslim in order not to be associated with the hypos

Allen

Peace, i feel the same as you. I call myself a quranic monotheist. Simple. God understands why we would want to avoid using the word muslim in order not to be associated with the hypos

I agree you should avoid using the word muslim for yourself.

unknownuser

I agree you should avoid using the word muslim for yourself.

Is this the character of a muslim?

Allen

Is this the character of a muslim?

It was tarikh's own wish.I just endorsed .He said

Peace, i feel the same as you. I call myself a quranic monotheist. Simple. God understands why we would want to avoid using the word muslim in order not to be associated with the hypos

Bigmo

Muslim mean believer in God and submitting to His authority and worthy. Animals in the Koran are Muslims, so are all the creation. I like the word Koranist. It explains me better.

SAbboushi

Hi Bigmo-

Hmmm... good point I recall the Quran saying that the animals and the mountains and the clouds submit to God's will. Does anyone know if any of these verses use the arabic word "muslim" to describe the animals / mountains / clouds and if so, what verses?

unknownuser

Hi Bigmo-

Hmmm... good point I recall the Quran saying that the animals and the mountains and the clouds submit to God's will. Does anyone know if any of these verses use the arabic word "muslim" to describe the animals / mountains / clouds and if so, what verses?

You just said it yourself...

Supposing I said "Animals dig holes", are animals then not "diggers"?

SAbboushi

Thanks OPF - yes I agree, but I do not want to draw such a conclusion about the Quran without verifying it (i.e. I want to look at the verses myself). So if anyone can refer me to such verses, I would be appreciative!

unknownuser

Come to think of it, I agree with you in a sense. 2278 says that the followers of Abraham are named muslims by God.

Allen

Thanks OPF - yes I agree, but I do not want to draw such a conclusion about the Quran without verifying it (i.e. I want to look at the verses myself). So if anyone can refer me to such verses, I would be appreciative!

Dear;
Sorry to say your conclusion is not correct.If we accept this concept then none will be non-muslim in this world even the atheists or Kaffirs will be a 'a muslim".Every atheist or kaffir is composed of a body which is in turn composed of different organs which are working according to law of nature.
-Neurons ---- function --------conduction of impulses ----- doing their job as sun is doing his job

Heart ------- function -- pumping of blood -----doing its job
-lungs ----- function ----- respiration --------- doing its job

and so on.
From this point of view that 'being bound to law of nature' is islam ,every atom or molecule existing in the unirverse will become muslim [LoL)
While "Islam" and "Muslim" (one who accepts Islam) are specific terms which are used only for human beings who have been awarded 'discretionary powers" to accept or reject it.That is why human beings are subject to reward /punishments NOT ANIMALS AND INANIMATE OBJECTS WHICH ARE BOUND TO 'LAW OF NATURE'
Prophets were sent for this "guidance " of human beings not animals or inanimate objects.

Bigmo

Hi Bigmo-

Hmmm... good point I recall the Quran saying that the animals and the mountains and the clouds submit to God's will. Does anyone know if any of these verses use the arabic word "muslim" to describe the animals / mountains / clouds and if so, what verses?

3.79 It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the prophetic office, should say to people "Be ye my worshippers rather than God's" on the contrary (He would say) "Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all For ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly."

3.80 Nor would he instruct you to take angels and prophets for Lords and patrons. What! would he bid you to unbelief after ye have bowed your will (To God in Islam)?

3.81 Behold! God took the covenant of the prophets, saying "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you an apostle, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." God said "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said "We agree." He said "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

3.82 If any turn back after this, they are perverted transgressors.

3.83. Do they seek for other than the Religion of God-while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will , and to Him shall they all be brought back.

3.84. Say "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in Islam)."

3.85. If anyone desires a religion other than Islam never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

(79) (80) (81) (82) (83) (84)

The word Islam appears in all the bolded parts of these verses.

Also

?Do you not see that to God bow down in worship (sujood) all things that are in the heavens and on the earth - the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the animals?? (Quran 221

?The seven heavens and the earth and all the beings therein proclaim His glory There is not a thing but celebrates His praise(do tasbeeh), but you understand not how they declare His glory?? (Quran 1744)

?To God bow all beings (do sujood) in the heavens and the earth - with good will or in spite of themselves?? (Quran 1315)

Also

Al-Hajj (Chapter 22, Verse 1
"Don't you see that to Allah bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth - the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the animals, and a great number among mankind? But a great number are also such as are fit for punishment and such as Allah shall disgrace, none can raise to honor for Allah carried out all that He wills."

Al-Nahl (Chapter 16, Verses 49-50)
"And unto Allah prostrate all that is in heavens and on earth, whether moving living creatures or the angels for none are arrogant (before their Lord). They all fear their Lord High above them, and they do all that they are commanded."

SAbboushi

Hi Allen-

I am interested in your interpretation of 383

Are they seeking other than GOD's religion, when everything in the heavens and the earth has submitted to Him, willingly and unwillingly, and to Him they will be returned?

It looks to me like the Arabic word used here is ?

Jack

Peace SAbboushi,

See

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15111.0

Has the answer you seek.

Allen

Hi Allen-

I am interested in your interpretation of 383

Are they seeking other than GOD's religion, when everything in the heavens and the earth has submitted to Him, willingly and unwillingly, and to Him they will be returned?

It looks to me like the Arabic word used here is ?

Dear Sabboushi
You have put the following verse
383
(383) Do they now seek a religion other than prescribed by Allah even though all that is in the heavens and the earth is in submission to Him *71 - willing or unwillingly - and to Him all shall return?

Before discussing its use of word let me clear a few points about any language.
In any language (I am sure about English and Arabic) there are certain fundamental things which are essential to understand for proper comprehension of that language. One of them is "DEFINITE ARTICLE " In English it is "THE" while in Arabic it is "AL- "
I give the example in English first which I have already given in one of my posts here. I need to repeat them here
Look at the following pairs of sentences.These have absolutely different in meaning by the use of article "THE"
1He went to school .
He went to the school

He went to sea.
He went to the sea.

Another example
In UK (for that matter in English)

conservative = moderate ,cautious
But when you capitalize it with a "THE " preceding it develops a different meaning
The Conservatives = persons belonging to the Conservative Party in UK

In same way

English = Language
The English = The people of England

See how the change in the definite article changes the connotation of meanings.

Same is the case with Arabic.Here the definite Article used is " Al?" For example

Kitaab = any book (indefinite noun )
Al ? kitaab = The Book = it is a specific Book which is revealed .
In no way you can take its meaning as book of medicine or physics or chemistry which is on your book shelf.
Another example
Quraan = recitation
Al ? Quran = That particular book which we refer it as "Quran Majeed"

Exactly in the same way
Aslama = To submit
Islam = submission = this can be applied to anyone who submits willingly/unwillingly no matter who he/she /it is .It will practically mean 'sumission to Law of nature"

may be human beings (whether momineen or kaafir)
may be animals
many be inanimate object
This is the type of 'islam " which is described in this Aya

But word which Quran has used is not "islam" but "Al- islam" .It is a specific type of 'islam" which is only and only for human beings.This word has been used in the Holy Quran 6 times

Look at these verses
319
(319) The true religion with Allah is Islam. *16
385
(385) And whoever seeks a way other than this way a submission (Islam), will find that it will not be accepted from him and in the Life to come he will be among the losers
53
This day I have perfected for you your religion, and have bestowed upon you My bounty in full measure, and have been pleased to assign for you Islam as your religion.

(6125) Thus, (it is a fact that) whomsoever Allah wills to guide, He opens his breast for Islam; *
3922
(3922) Now, can the person whose breast Allah has opened for Islam *40 and he is walking in the light shown by his Lord *
617
(617) Now, who could be more wicked than he who forges falsehoods against Allah *10 even though he is being invited towards Islam (submission to Allah)? *11 Allah does not guide such wrongdoers

FROM THESE VERSES WE CAN DEDUCT THE CONCLUSION THAT

? AL ? ISLAM IS THE A COMPLETE CODE OF LIFE (AL- DEEN )
? 319
? (319) The true religion with Allah is Islam. *16

? WHOSOEVER DOES NOT ACCEPTS OTHER THAN AL-ISLAM ' WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED ON THE DOOMSDAY

? 385
? (385) And whoever seeks a way other than this way a submission (Islam), will find that it will not be accepted from him and in the Life to come he will be among the losers

? AL-ISLAM WAS NOT REVEALED AT ONCE RATHER GRADUALLY AND COMPLETED WHEN THIS VERSE WAS REVEALED ;

? 53
? This day I have perfected for you your religion, and have bestowed upon you My bounty in full measure, and have been pleased to assign for you Islam as your religion.

? AL ? ISLAM IS RELATED WITH GUIDANCE
?
? (6125) Thus, (it is a fact that) whomsoever Allah wills to guide, He opens his breast for Islam; *

? AL ? ISLAM IS JUST LIKE A LIGHT FROM RABB
? 3922
? (3922) Now, can the person whose breast Allah has opened for Islam *40 and he is walking in the light shown by his Lord *

? AL ? ISLAM NEEDS TO BE INVITED
? 617
? (617) Now, who could be more wicked than he who forges falsehoods against Allah *10 even though he is being invited towards Islam (submission to Allah)? *11 Allah does not guide such wrongdoers.

Now again look at your verse and see the word 'aslama' used in general sense (Law of nature) while word "Al ? islam" is a particular one.

Bigmo

Dear Sabboushi
You have put the following verse
383
(383) Do they now seek a religion other than prescribed by Allah even though all that is in the heavens and the earth is in submission to Him *71 - willing or unwillingly - and to Him all shall return?

Before discussing its use of word let me clear a few points about any language.
In any language (I am sure about English and Arabic) there are certain fundamental things which are essential to understand for proper comprehension of that language. One of them is "DEFINITE ARTICLE " In English it is "THE" while in Arabic it is "AL- "
I give the example in English first which I have already given in one of my posts here. I need to repeat them here
Look at the following pairs of sentences.These have absolutely different in meaning by the use of article "THE"
1He went to school .
He went to the school

He went to sea.
He went to the sea.

Another example
In UK (for that matter in English)

conservative = moderate ,cautious
But when you capitalize it with a "THE " preceding it develops a different meaning
The Conservatives = persons belonging to the Conservative Party in UK

In same way

English = Language
The English = The people of England

See how the change in the definite article changes the connotation of meanings.

Same is the case with Arabic.Here the definite Article used is " Al?" For example

Kitaab = any book (indefinite noun )
Al ? kitaab = The Book = it is a specific Book which is revealed .
In no way you can take its meaning as book of medicine or physics or chemistry which is on your book shelf.
Another example
Quraan = recitation
Al ? Quran = That particular book which we refer it as "Quran Majeed"

Exactly in the same way
Aslama = To submit
Islam = submission = this can be applied to anyone who submits willingly/unwillingly no matter who he/she /it is .It will practically mean 'sumission to Law of nature"

may be human beings (whether momineen or kaafir)
may be animals
many be inanimate object
This is the type of 'islam " which is described in this Aya