The Qur'an does NOT advise husbands to beat their wives.

huruf

Congratulations for this useful work to compile and put all these translations of this aya which are so often used to portrait Islam as an antiwoman religion. The aya is thick with traps of that kind. I trust that we shall benefit greatly form debating it.

My comments

About the expression -in most of the translations- "then, if they obey you" -ata3nakum- at the end of the quote. Verb ataa3 used here, happens many times in the Quran, many or most of them is translated as "obey" sometimes as "follow", sometimes as "listen". It is the pick of the translator which makes it say obey, listen, follow, or whatever. The fact is that it has a wide meaning going in the general sense of being in agreement, doing as told, bearing in mindwhat you are told and may be following it, believing what one is told... So the for instance the "obey the messenger" may mean obey the Messenger or listen to what the messenger tells you (he is right), etc. May be some person more knowledgeable in Arabic can expand, but the thing is that the usage in Arabic of this verb and the usage of obey in other languages, like English, I think, is in now way same. When you systematically translate ataa3 by "obey" the text is unbearable, like if it was continually grumbling and disparaging, and disfigures completely the general tone and attitude of the Quran, which rarely relies in obedience for the heck of it but on listening, pondering, reflecting and understanding. In the present text, bearing also in mind that "saalihaatu qaanitaat" in the earlier part of the aya is also abundantly translated as "are obedient" (only rarely specifying "to Allah&quot, when we come to the "obey you" we no longer have any doubts that the muslim woman must be an abject voluntary slave that must accept to be treated like a dog, and only fit to be ordered around and beaten. The beating at the end comes with the obedience. We shouldn't be schoked if we get that kind of reaction. In an age when even children are not held to ebdience to their parents, this is glaring. Ata3nakum, should be translated by listen, or pay atention to what you say, or something that gives that meaning. And any obedience that may appear should clearly be assigned to God. Otherwise it is a travesty of the original.

badh3uhum 3ala badh3

In the grammars I have studied "badh3un badh3" is a reciprocal expression, so that
the rendering would be quite laborious in English, but something like "priviledged men over women and women over men", or whatever words have been chosen to translate riyal and nisaa'. If we add the translation of "bima" it really becomes complicated to shape that in English, or many other languages, with approaching ergonomy as what has been done in Arabic.

"Al ghayb" seems another source of disparity. What can el "ghayb" be for which women should guard? If we go back to the reciprocity of advantages of men over women and women over men, I understand that advantage of men is that the burden of reproduction for them fisiologically is very light (and pleasant, of course), which gives them more disponibility for other things, but then for having children and experience fatherhood they are almost entirely dependent on women. The advantage of women is that they can have children almost at wish and have very little dependence on men for that. So, because men depend on women to have children and have more disponibility having less burden, they must assume other burdens, like maintaining women, and by the same token, women must be conscious of the unseen, of what is not manifest, that is, what men cannot know if the women don't tell them, that is their fatherhood, whose it is and when does it happen. Therefore uprighteous women keep faith to the unseen (the unborn or even unconceived child who depends on them to have a father and a mother?) because God to guard that unseen God commended it to the woman, and Allah guards everything unseen (and sees everything, even what we hide and what we guard) and if the woman keeps faith. In this expression, bima hafizha Allah, I could see also a call from God to feel responsible not to men but to God.

This is my understanding of the aya, which does not exclude other understandings, because omm el kitab is really a bountiful omm.

I would be grateful for comments on the grammar of this part, since it is only my humble efforts that have gone into this exploration.

Salaam

sahaba

peace, interesting intepretation of 'ghayb'.

You are right about "atha'nakum", in this context, it should be translated as 'if they comply', 'if they wish to get along with you' etc.

'Qanitat' deffinately means 'obedient to GOD' and NOT the husband. The word has been used in several places to refer to those who are obedient to GOD, even Maryam is referred to as 'qanitat'. Now, she is not known to have a husband is she?

You identified well that if 'qanitat' is left translated as just 'obedient', it may wrongly be taken as obedient to the husband, and if the following "ata'na" is translated as "obey you" the connection is made between further misleading people.

To translate this Verse properly, besides having very good Arabic skills, the person must have very thorough understanding of the entire Qur'an, such as its values, morals and also where and how these words have been used elsewhere in the Qur'an. Also, the translator obviously needs to be a sincere believer.

Samia

badh3uhum 3ala badh3

In the grammars I have studied "badh3un badh3" is a reciprocal expression, so that
the rendering would be quite laborious in English, but something like "priviledged men over women and women over men", or whatever words have been chosen to translate riyal and nisaa'. If we add the translation of "bima" it really becomes complicated to shape that in English, or many other languages, with approaching ergonomy as what has been done in Arabic.

"Al ghayb" seems another source of disparity. What can el "ghayb" be for which women should guard? If we go back to the reciprocity of advantages of men over women and women over men, I understand that advantage of men is that the burden of reproduction for them fisiologically is very light (and pleasant, of course), which gives them more disponibility for other things, but then for having children and experience fatherhood they are almost entirely dependent on women. The advantage of women is that they can have children almost at wish and have very little dependence on men for that. So, because men depend on women to have children and have more disponibility having less burden, they must assume other burdens, like maintaining women, and by the same token, women must be conscious of the unseen, of what is not manifest, that is, what men cannot know if the women don't tell them, that is their fatherhood, whose it is and when does it happen. Therefore uprighteous women keep faith to the unseen (the unborn or even unconceived child who depends on them to have a father and a mother?) because God to guard that unseen God commended it to the woman, and Allah guards everything unseen (and sees everything, even what we hide and what we guard) and if the woman keeps faith. In this expression, bima hafizha Allah, I could see also a call from God to feel responsible not to men but to God.

This is my understanding of the aya, which does not exclude other understandings, because omm el kitab is really a bountiful omm.

I would be grateful for comments on the grammar of this part, since it is only my humble efforts that have gone into this exploration.

Salaam

Salaam huruf

I agree with you about the reciprocity of "ba3duhum 3alaa baed", but it would be useful to scan the quraan for matters where God "faddala" some people. I do not think biological functions are part of it. Moreover, it has nothing to do in this verse, especially when it is followed by "and because of what they spend". I believe the "fadl" here is wealth "rizq", which is mentioned in many verses as "fadl" from God. This entails that "ghayb" will be related to this spending spending in private without publicising it.

Back to reciprocity it is what God "faddala" those who are able to work or have money from other resources over the others who are deprived of it, irrespective of their gender.

The verse starts with a general statement, which has to be valid. And it can only be valid everywhere anytime only if we remove the gender element from it. Those who spend are not necessarily spouses, but every member of the family children spend on their parents, parents on their children, siblings on each other , any able one on the disabled and other vulnerable people.

The verse narrows these cases into only the married couple because it is the only case not discussed in other verses- apart from the dowry- God commands us to be kind and respectful to parents and to the orphans (both mentioned in the verses of the Straight Path). This is about spending between husband and wife.

huruf

Is "because of" the only meaning that can have "bimaa"? I would have thought it is wider. In the second bimaa, if it is because it doesn't make sense with the rest because when you say qawwamun you are already saying that they maintain the others. "They are maintainers because they spend on them", obviously if they maintain them they spend on them and if they spend on them, they maintain them in whatever measure. I have some difficulty also with the explantion that rijal means those who have more means and then saying tht God faddala for the same reason as above, that it is a tautology those who are favoured with wealth have more means?
Also if the favour is only on the first (rijal) -who have means-, where is the reciprocity?

I am looking for occurrences of FDDL in the Qur'an and there is in
4.95 faddala Allahu al mujahidin 3ala el qa3idin.
2.47
7.140
2.253
6.86
17.55
27.15
17.70 This, as I see points to the same as 4.34
45.16
13.4 " "
23.24 Here it seems simple to mean to be above or better than
17.21 tafdilan

In many ayas FDDL aparece with profets or children of Israel, as a trust, which I think also applies in this aya.

If this aya refers to those with means and those without, I don't see very well the way it becomes wives later in the aya, with the relative pronoun allati, which I supose refers back to nisaa', which would be "those without means". To me it makes the meaning still more mind boggling. Although I take notice of your explanation as to why it turns into wives. May be when I think it through it may make more sense.

brook

The way I see it is that the key word is not faddala but qawwam, which forbids men from having control over women as the same qawwam when used about justice (4135) forbids believers from having control over justice because the justice under people's control becomes their plaything, losing its ability to be impartial; so qawwam means supporter without interference.

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

huruf

The way I see it is that the key word is not faddala but qawwam, which forbids men from having control over women as the same qawwam when used about justice (4135) forbids believers from having control over justice because the justice under people's control becomes their plaything, losing its ability to be impartial; so qawwam means supporter without interference.

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

Great, brook, and quite to the point. Indeed, those who have for ages interpreted and keep trnaslating this aya as implying authority should have been pointed out this occurrence of qawwam.

Samia

Salaam huruf, Hasan and all

The word "qawwamuun/een" in verses 4135 and 58 does not contradict the meaning of being responsible, but rather confirms it. In these two verses, the preposition used is "bi" which means here "with" be responsible (of whatever/whoever) with justice. In verse 434, there are two prepositions 3alaa, here it indicates the subject of the quwaama; and bi-maa with what (yes, huruf, I changed the "because"!!)

This further proves that it is not just men who are asked to deal/be responsible with justice, and also, it cannot be "adribuuhunna" because of the lack of justice here (no mention of how the woman may avoid this punishment or defend herself, no mention of where to strike or how much, difference of the dealing when the nushuuz comes from the husband).

Samia

Salaam huruf

Further occurences for "fadl" meaning "rizq/wealth"

2422
432
495
437
454
1671
4516
6210
928
974
975
976
1614
1766
2432
2433
2873
3045
3046
3512
4512
3180

This does not mean fadl is lmited to this meaning, of course. What I want to say is that from the context you may find out what it means, and the context of verse 434 shows clearly that is what God has "faddala" some over the others.

Notice the occurences of this meaning in chapter 4.

huruf

I didn't put those meanings implying wealth, because you already pointed them out, so I just check whether it did happen with other meanings, which it does.

Be it as it may, this seems to be a very fruitful aya, the "mother of all manipulation", but also "the mother of all legitimate interrogation and reflection", as the Qur'an wants us to do, to get the best meaning.

Now to the last part of the aya, Samia, how would you turn it out in the event that it is not about men or women, but about "with means", and "without means", how would it read?

The nushuz part I usually pointe out that there is also nushuz from husband to wife, and it is only in the translations where something different is said, and how determinedly anti women one must be thinking to come with those interpretations, and in the process spit on the Qur'an.

On another line, I also think that it may be possible to extract more than one meaning or application to ayas, provided you do so legitimately, that is without twisting or forcing what is not there and if it is the best meaning. A mother can have more than one children.

Salaam

Samia

Now to the last part of the aya, Samia, how would you turn it out in the event that it is not about men or women, but about "with means", and "without means", how would it read?

The verse starts with a general statement, which has to be valid. And it can only be valid everywhere anytime only if we remove the gender element from it. Those who spend are not necessarily spouses, but every member of the family children spend on their parents, parents on their children, siblings on each other , any able one on the disabled and other vulnerable people.

The verse narrows these cases into only the married couple because it is the only case not discussed in other verses- apart from the dowry- God commands us to be kind and respectful to parents and to the orphans (both mentioned in the verses of the Straight Path). This is about spending between husband and wife.

huruf

Salaam Samia,

I would appreciate it very much if you could put the entire aya as you would translate it yourself, because I do not seem to get hold of it from the point of view that you have put forward and I think that it is very important, at least it is for me, to gain the greatest insight possible. I know beforehand that in any translation this aya will be betrayed, because of the impossibility of transferring to other language all the posibilities enclosed in Arabic and the feasibility of giving it possibilities that are not there in Arabic. That is more reason to try our (or at least my) best.

Thanks and salam

Samia

Salaam huruf, all

This is my explanation (not a translation)

Those who walk the earth (on trade/work) are guardians over those who remain behind, by what God favoured some of them over the others of earnings/bounty and by what they spend.

So, those who are doing the good ( ) do not talk ( ) and are keeping the secret (of their spendings) of what God is keeping/orders to keep; and those you fear/expect/feel that they will be arrogant (by talking and boasting about their spending) adivse/talk to them and stay away from their beds and expose them to others/seperate from them. If they do not listen to the advice/get in line with you do not seek means against them to annoy tem. God indeed is ever most High, most Great.

I just want to point out two points

It is logical that description of good and bad be given to the guardians/ the doers, rather than to those we spend on. This is the case in the quraan.
It is familiar that God gives examples of two women for "allatheena amanu masculine plural", and two women for "allatheena kafaru masculine plural".

peace4life

This is my explanation (not a translation)

Those who walk the earth (on trade/work) are guardians over those who remain behind, by what God favoured some of them over the others of earnings/bounty and by what they spend.

So, those who are doing the good ( ) do not talk ( ) and are keeping the secret (of their spendings) of what God is keeping/orders to keep; and those you fear/expect/feel that they will be arrogant (by talking and boasting about their spending) adivse/talk to them and stay away from their beds and expose them to others/seperate from them. If they do not listen to the advice/get in line with you do not seek means against them to annoy tem. God indeed is ever most High, most Great.

Very very interesting. Thanks for your work sis sun

huruf

Salaam, Samia,

I am not seeking to contradict or question your translation or to create controversy, but rather to clear (to whatever extent) my own ideas on this. So I ask, are you convinced that this is the only interpretaion possible? or you consider it a good interpretation that doesn't exclude other interpretations?

Thanks, salaam

Samia

Very very interesting. Thanks for your work sis sun

Thank you and welcome.

Salaam, Samia,

I am not seeking to contradict or question your translation or to create controversy, but rather to clear (to whatever extent) my own ideas on this. So I ask, are you convinced that this is the only interpretaion possible? or you consider it a good interpretation that doesn't exclude other interpretations?

Thanks, salaam

Of course I never presume my understanding to be the only corret one, but I can tell a wrong one

huruf

I guess I can't get it narrower than that. Thanks, Samia.

Salaam

aqua

I have written an article on verse 434 of the Qur'an, a verse which has commonly been misinterpreted to justify violence against women. I have created a website to publish this article www.quranverse434.com