The Qur'an does NOT advise husbands to beat their wives.

huruf

The way I see it is that the key word is not faddala but qawwam, which forbids men from having control over women as the same qawwam when used about justice (4135) forbids believers from having control over justice because the justice under people's control becomes their plaything, losing its ability to be impartial; so qawwam means supporter without interference.

Peace,
Hasan Akcay

Great, brook, and quite to the point. Indeed, those who have for ages interpreted and keep trnaslating this aya as implying authority should have been pointed out this occurrence of qawwam.

Samia

Salaam huruf, Hasan and all

The word "qawwamuun/een" in verses 4135 and 58 does not contradict the meaning of being responsible, but rather confirms it. In these two verses, the preposition used is "bi" which means here "with" be responsible (of whatever/whoever) with justice. In verse 434, there are two prepositions 3alaa, here it indicates the subject of the quwaama; and bi-maa with what (yes, huruf, I changed the "because"!!)

This further proves that it is not just men who are asked to deal/be responsible with justice, and also, it cannot be "adribuuhunna" because of the lack of justice here (no mention of how the woman may avoid this punishment or defend herself, no mention of where to strike or how much, difference of the dealing when the nushuuz comes from the husband).

Samia

Salaam huruf

Further occurences for "fadl" meaning "rizq/wealth"

2422
432
495
437
454
1671
4516
6210
928
974
975
976
1614
1766
2432
2433
2873
3045
3046
3512
4512
3180

This does not mean fadl is lmited to this meaning, of course. What I want to say is that from the context you may find out what it means, and the context of verse 434 shows clearly that is what God has "faddala" some over the others.

Notice the occurences of this meaning in chapter 4.

huruf

I didn't put those meanings implying wealth, because you already pointed them out, so I just check whether it did happen with other meanings, which it does.

Be it as it may, this seems to be a very fruitful aya, the "mother of all manipulation", but also "the mother of all legitimate interrogation and reflection", as the Qur'an wants us to do, to get the best meaning.

Now to the last part of the aya, Samia, how would you turn it out in the event that it is not about men or women, but about "with means", and "without means", how would it read?

The nushuz part I usually pointe out that there is also nushuz from husband to wife, and it is only in the translations where something different is said, and how determinedly anti women one must be thinking to come with those interpretations, and in the process spit on the Qur'an.

On another line, I also think that it may be possible to extract more than one meaning or application to ayas, provided you do so legitimately, that is without twisting or forcing what is not there and if it is the best meaning. A mother can have more than one children.

Salaam

Samia

Now to the last part of the aya, Samia, how would you turn it out in the event that it is not about men or women, but about "with means", and "without means", how would it read?

The verse starts with a general statement, which has to be valid. And it can only be valid everywhere anytime only if we remove the gender element from it. Those who spend are not necessarily spouses, but every member of the family children spend on their parents, parents on their children, siblings on each other , any able one on the disabled and other vulnerable people.

The verse narrows these cases into only the married couple because it is the only case not discussed in other verses- apart from the dowry- God commands us to be kind and respectful to parents and to the orphans (both mentioned in the verses of the Straight Path). This is about spending between husband and wife.

huruf

Salaam Samia,

I would appreciate it very much if you could put the entire aya as you would translate it yourself, because I do not seem to get hold of it from the point of view that you have put forward and I think that it is very important, at least it is for me, to gain the greatest insight possible. I know beforehand that in any translation this aya will be betrayed, because of the impossibility of transferring to other language all the posibilities enclosed in Arabic and the feasibility of giving it possibilities that are not there in Arabic. That is more reason to try our (or at least my) best.

Thanks and salam

Samia

Salaam huruf, all

This is my explanation (not a translation)

Those who walk the earth (on trade/work) are guardians over those who remain behind, by what God favoured some of them over the others of earnings/bounty and by what they spend.

So, those who are doing the good ( ) do not talk ( ) and are keeping the secret (of their spendings) of what God is keeping/orders to keep; and those you fear/expect/feel that they will be arrogant (by talking and boasting about their spending) adivse/talk to them and stay away from their beds and expose them to others/seperate from them. If they do not listen to the advice/get in line with you do not seek means against them to annoy tem. God indeed is ever most High, most Great.

I just want to point out two points

It is logical that description of good and bad be given to the guardians/ the doers, rather than to those we spend on. This is the case in the quraan.
It is familiar that God gives examples of two women for "allatheena amanu masculine plural", and two women for "allatheena kafaru masculine plural".

peace4life

This is my explanation (not a translation)

Those who walk the earth (on trade/work) are guardians over those who remain behind, by what God favoured some of them over the others of earnings/bounty and by what they spend.

So, those who are doing the good ( ) do not talk ( ) and are keeping the secret (of their spendings) of what God is keeping/orders to keep; and those you fear/expect/feel that they will be arrogant (by talking and boasting about their spending) adivse/talk to them and stay away from their beds and expose them to others/seperate from them. If they do not listen to the advice/get in line with you do not seek means against them to annoy tem. God indeed is ever most High, most Great.

Very very interesting. Thanks for your work sis sun

huruf

Salaam, Samia,

I am not seeking to contradict or question your translation or to create controversy, but rather to clear (to whatever extent) my own ideas on this. So I ask, are you convinced that this is the only interpretaion possible? or you consider it a good interpretation that doesn't exclude other interpretations?

Thanks, salaam

Samia

Very very interesting. Thanks for your work sis sun

Thank you and welcome.

Salaam, Samia,

I am not seeking to contradict or question your translation or to create controversy, but rather to clear (to whatever extent) my own ideas on this. So I ask, are you convinced that this is the only interpretaion possible? or you consider it a good interpretation that doesn't exclude other interpretations?

Thanks, salaam

Of course I never presume my understanding to be the only corret one, but I can tell a wrong one

huruf

I guess I can't get it narrower than that. Thanks, Samia.

Salaam

aqua

I have written an article on verse 434 of the Qur'an, a verse which has commonly been misinterpreted to justify violence against women. I have created a website to publish this article www.quranverse434.com