Does Quran prohibit ?
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Salaam, dear all, I am sister, not a brother,
About that island where ten men would be caught with just one woman, man, do as you please, but first of all, remember that the one woman must really agree to be wed to ten men. Something, which from the way you start seems to be the least of your concerns and shows that in fact you don't give a damn about women's rights, you are just splitting hairs, because autmatically you are assuming that the only woman would have to satisfy ten men's urges. In fact, nothing new. We are used to the way in which hypocrites have always turned any right afforded to women in an obligation imposed on women. So now you are solving the problem of the ten men imposing on her ten husbands without even considering that in fact she might not even be in the mood for one. Another thing that you have forgotten is that those ten men on the island do not seem to be in a worse condition than the woman to need her protection, nor are accompanied by any orphans... So in fact what you are saying is that men always have the right to help themselves to whatever there is... Which is where many of those advocating this kind of rights for women always show that the least of their concerns is in fact what women want, but they just use any opening to distort injunctions whose purpose and conditions are clearly spelled out. The unprotected in that island of yours, among ten men, would certainly be the woman, not the ten men. So go back there to that mental island of yours and keep pondering about your "rights" to help yourself.
As to the meaning of that part of my message that says
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We can go on and imagine a situation where there are many men destitute with orphans and women are in a much smaller number and in a much better situation to afford a burdening themselves with more husbands and orphans. That way we will satisfy the theoretical principle of equality of problems between the sexes, but I don't remember that there has ever bee such situation,....What I was trying to say is that the situations where the need to have more than one husband paralleling the need described in the Qur'an to have more than one wife, for the moment seems merely speculative, because I do not know that it ever happens or has happened nor is likely to happen that in fact in times of difficulty women are in much fewer numbers while at the same time they are in much better position of means and strength and not burdened by orphans than men. Usually in wars and other calamities women and children are always worse off than men and therefore the situation equivalent to the one described in the Qur'an is a matter of speculation, so that those that want to say that the Qur'an gives more rights to men than women can have their way, no matter what reality is. If that situation ever arose, as I have said, men and orphans would also have to be protected by the most expedient means at hand.
Oh? and as to the right of women to have multiple sex partners, it has always existed, it is called prostitution, again, a woman's right turned into an imposition that has not resulted in elevating women's standing, nor is likely to result in the future. Is that the island the hawk had in mind?
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Br. siki, thank you for your input on the word "Mohsinnati". I took the translation from www.openburhan.net and it was a Free Minds translation. I'll look up any discussions on the forum about the two words to clarify them to myself.
I apologize profusely for addressing you inappropriately, Sis. huruf. I am still new on this forum and still have only interacted with a few people here. I assure you that I won't make the same mistake again. As for your explanation, I still am having a hard time reconciling your explanation to the Book. But I will continue my endeavour to understand your point of view.
Peace
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The order is for both. What makes you think that the address is to men only?
Leoxyz, (I am addressing you with your first personality's name), instead of wasting time reincarnating again and again, it would be better if you try to learn something, if you even care to learn
Learning from whome ?? Quranist scholars like following "classical knowledge example???
Salaam POF
"Rijaal" does not primarily mean "men". It means those who seek; on foot. It could be "men" or "women". Also, "nisaa'" is not the plural of "imra'a" but the plural of "nas' " the delayed; remainder, left behind. We find both meanings in the quraan.
This is "Knowledge" of Arabic speaking person who is holding Lisaan ul Arab also.
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whome are you talking about??
Why are you evading the question of your PEARL of knowledge about "Nisaa" ??
Would you please let me know the source of your knowledge ??I am not evading any thing. I am asking a serious question Are/were you Leoxyz? Yes or no will do
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The translators have translated the word Mohsinnati as married women. which is incorrect. It simply means chaste women...
Not only that , the word Ma Malakat Aymanukum, has been translated as " those who become widowed", what a blatant, lie by the translator( who so ever he is).
siki,
The married women in the translation corresponds to mohsanaati min an-nisaa. Nisaa = women. That is; there is women in the Arabic text. So the mohsanaat are the chaste ones of the nisaa. Who are those nisaa?
In the previous verse the nisaa are mentioned as wives (ummahaatu nisaa ikum mothers of your wives) and as mothers (nisaa ikumu'l?tee dahaltum bihinyour wives whom you have slept with).
Wives and mothers are both married. And since the conjunction wa in the beginning of 424 joins this verse in meaning to the previous one, we must conclude that the mohsanaati min an-nisaa are chaste ones of the married women.
Am I wrong?
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Salaam Hasan, all, especially those who think muhsanaat=chaste
It is easy to find out if a woman is married or not; but chaste? How? Are we going to follow rumors, forgetting verses496; 244 (muhsanaat can also commit fahisha 425). Even a convicted zaania is considered chaste after serving her punishment (245). How can you divide women, especially believing women (since marrying an idolatress or a non believer is prohibited) into chaste and not chaste?
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Peace
You want to say that Quran advocates 'sex discrimination"??
Do you want me to say that? whatever
If we are keeping in line with the context I had mentioned before than yes. Of course those who fail to discriminate between the sexes may have a little judgement problem.
Joe
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whome are you talking about??
Why are you evading the question of your PEARL of knowledge about "Nisaa" ??
Would you please let me know the source of your knowledge ??Do you realize you're not fooling anyone who's seen your previous incarnations, Leoxyz?
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Salaam Hasan, all, especially those who think muhsanaat=chaste
It is easy to find out if a woman is married or not; but chaste? How? Are we going to follow rumors, forgetting verses496; 244 (muhsanaat can also commit fahisha 425). Even a convicted zaania is considered chaste after serving her punishment (245). How can you divide women, especially believing women (since marrying an idolatress or a non believer is prohibited) into chaste and not chaste?
"Chaste women" is actulaly the wrong translation of "mohsanaat" but it has to be used in order to save words. Mohsanaat (with SAD) actually means women under protection. All muslim women are under the protection of Islam.
However, some non-muslim women such as the Jews and Christians are mohsanaat too "mohsanaat"u min ellez?na uutu'l Kitab (55). Can we assume that they are self-protected?
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Salaam Hasan, all, especially those who think muhsanaat=chaste
It is easy to find out if a woman is married or not; but chaste? How? Are we going to follow rumors, forgetting verses496; 244 (muhsanaat can also commit fahisha 425). Even a convicted zaania is considered chaste after serving her punishment (245). How can you divide women, especially believing women (since marrying an idolatress or a non believer is prohibited) into chaste and not chaste?
Dear Samia
Where have you been learning Arabic ???
The actual verse is244
245
245 is clearly about those ones who accuse the chaste women.How is it declaring Zania females to be 'Chaste".
Before you said that- "Rajulun" does not primarily means "man"
- "Nisaa" is not plural of "imraatun"
Is this the standard of Quranist scholarship ???
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siki,
The married women in the translation corresponds to mohsanaati min an-nisaa. Nisaa = women. That is; there is women in the Arabic text. So the mohsanaat are the chaste ones of the nisaa. Who are those nisaa?
In the previous verse the nisaa are mentioned as wives (ummahaatu nisaa ikum mothers of your wives) and as mothers (nisaa ikumu'l?tee dahaltum bihinyour wives whom you have slept with).
Wives and mothers are both married. And since the conjunction wa in the beginning of 424 joins this verse in meaning to the previous one, we must conclude that the mohsanaati min an-nisaa are chaste ones of the married women.
Am I wrong?
Peace,
Hasan AkcayYes , you are. the previous verse is spelling out incest , and almost all of them could be unmarried including your mother (she could be a widow now)
Mohsinat ul minna nissa, chaste women, out of women ( every category)
mohsinat minan mominnat, chaste women out of believing women,
Mohsinnat outul kitab, chaste women out of the followers of the previous scriptures.
Hassan , the red part of your statment is incorrect. If God is prohibiting the married ones any way , why does he has to spell out the Mohsinnats (chaste ones out of the women)?
And how about this
24-4And those who launch a charge against chaste women(mohsinnat), and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors;-24-23 Verily, those, who calumniate chaste women(mohsinnat),who are unwary(Ghafillat),and/but believing(mominnat) , are cursed in this world and the hereafter. And for them is a grievous chastisement
Hassan ,
Try fitting any other difinition of the term "Mohsinnat" in the above two verses and find for yourself.
peace
siki
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Dear Samia
Where have you been learning Arabic ???
...Is this the standard of Quranist scholarship ???
Leoxyz is just like bacteria. He replicates and replicates.
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almost all of them could be unmarried including your mother (she could be a widow now)
The NISAA IKUM in 423 literally means YOUR WIVES. That is what I am saying, literally. They could be widows now, yes; but that makes no difference. God?s truth is that NISAA IKUM in 423 means your wives, who are married women rather tan merely women. You can see the difference between NISAA IKUM and NISAA, can?t you?
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Peace hassan
I can understand your confusion now
you are referring to umahhati nissakum, or kinda mother in laws. Brother , the word nissakum has been used here instead of "Azwajukum"(nikahed wives) . The Allmighty has intentionally used this word to cover all the women with whom you have legal sexual relationships, like MMA etc. It even covers your illegal sexual relations .
It simply means that mother of some one with whom you have sexual relations, are "Haram" for ever. It is like, If i am sleeping with some one , she is my girl /my woman, is'nt she?
siki
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Salaam Hasan, all, especially those who think muhsanaat=chaste
It is easy to find out if a woman is married or not; but chaste? How? Are we going to follow rumors, forgetting verses496; 244 (muhsanaat can also commit fahisha 425). Even a convicted zaania is considered chaste after serving her punishment (245). How can you divide women, especially believing women (since marrying an idolatress or a non believer is prohibited) into chaste and not chaste?
salam samia
I guess we have debated this statement of yours a couple of times, in length some time ago. If you have some new argument, i am all eyes and ears hail.
siki
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salam samia
I guess we have debated this statement of yours a couple of times, in length some time ago. If you have some new argument, i am all eyes and ears hail.
siki
First I never discussed this very issue before with you or with anyone else.
Second do you believe that a zani or a zania, after having been punished, then repented and done well, are not forgiven and not considered chaste again? -
Salaam Hasan, all, especially those who think muhsanaat=chaste
It is easy to find out if a woman is married or not; but chaste? How? Are we going to follow rumors, forgetting verses496; 244 (muhsanaat can also commit fahisha 425). Even a convicted zaania is considered chaste after serving her punishment (245). How can you divide women, especially believing women (since marrying an idolatress or a non believer is prohibited) into chaste and not chaste?
Sister Samia,
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't every woman "chaste" until proven guilty? I mean If someone accuses a woman of misconduct, aren't they required 4 witnesses, etc.? If they can't prove it, then the woman is chaste, no?
Peace