Does Quran prohibit ?
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Salaam Hasan, all, especially those who think muhsanaat=chaste
It is easy to find out if a woman is married or not; but chaste? How? Are we going to follow rumors, forgetting verses496; 244 (muhsanaat can also commit fahisha 425). Even a convicted zaania is considered chaste after serving her punishment (245). How can you divide women, especially believing women (since marrying an idolatress or a non believer is prohibited) into chaste and not chaste?
Dear Samia
Where have you been learning Arabic ???
The actual verse is244
245
245 is clearly about those ones who accuse the chaste women.How is it declaring Zania females to be 'Chaste".
Before you said that- "Rajulun" does not primarily means "man"
- "Nisaa" is not plural of "imraatun"
Is this the standard of Quranist scholarship ???
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siki,
The married women in the translation corresponds to mohsanaati min an-nisaa. Nisaa = women. That is; there is women in the Arabic text. So the mohsanaat are the chaste ones of the nisaa. Who are those nisaa?
In the previous verse the nisaa are mentioned as wives (ummahaatu nisaa ikum mothers of your wives) and as mothers (nisaa ikumu'l?tee dahaltum bihinyour wives whom you have slept with).
Wives and mothers are both married. And since the conjunction wa in the beginning of 424 joins this verse in meaning to the previous one, we must conclude that the mohsanaati min an-nisaa are chaste ones of the married women.
Am I wrong?
Peace,
Hasan AkcayYes , you are. the previous verse is spelling out incest , and almost all of them could be unmarried including your mother (she could be a widow now)
Mohsinat ul minna nissa, chaste women, out of women ( every category)
mohsinat minan mominnat, chaste women out of believing women,
Mohsinnat outul kitab, chaste women out of the followers of the previous scriptures.
Hassan , the red part of your statment is incorrect. If God is prohibiting the married ones any way , why does he has to spell out the Mohsinnats (chaste ones out of the women)?
And how about this
24-4And those who launch a charge against chaste women(mohsinnat), and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after for such men are wicked transgressors;-24-23 Verily, those, who calumniate chaste women(mohsinnat),who are unwary(Ghafillat),and/but believing(mominnat) , are cursed in this world and the hereafter. And for them is a grievous chastisement
Hassan ,
Try fitting any other difinition of the term "Mohsinnat" in the above two verses and find for yourself.
peace
siki
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Dear Samia
Where have you been learning Arabic ???
...Is this the standard of Quranist scholarship ???
Leoxyz is just like bacteria. He replicates and replicates.
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almost all of them could be unmarried including your mother (she could be a widow now)
The NISAA IKUM in 423 literally means YOUR WIVES. That is what I am saying, literally. They could be widows now, yes; but that makes no difference. God?s truth is that NISAA IKUM in 423 means your wives, who are married women rather tan merely women. You can see the difference between NISAA IKUM and NISAA, can?t you?
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Peace hassan
I can understand your confusion now
you are referring to umahhati nissakum, or kinda mother in laws. Brother , the word nissakum has been used here instead of "Azwajukum"(nikahed wives) . The Allmighty has intentionally used this word to cover all the women with whom you have legal sexual relationships, like MMA etc. It even covers your illegal sexual relations .
It simply means that mother of some one with whom you have sexual relations, are "Haram" for ever. It is like, If i am sleeping with some one , she is my girl /my woman, is'nt she?
siki
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Salaam Hasan, all, especially those who think muhsanaat=chaste
It is easy to find out if a woman is married or not; but chaste? How? Are we going to follow rumors, forgetting verses496; 244 (muhsanaat can also commit fahisha 425). Even a convicted zaania is considered chaste after serving her punishment (245). How can you divide women, especially believing women (since marrying an idolatress or a non believer is prohibited) into chaste and not chaste?
salam samia
I guess we have debated this statement of yours a couple of times, in length some time ago. If you have some new argument, i am all eyes and ears hail.
siki
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salam samia
I guess we have debated this statement of yours a couple of times, in length some time ago. If you have some new argument, i am all eyes and ears hail.
siki
First I never discussed this very issue before with you or with anyone else.
Second do you believe that a zani or a zania, after having been punished, then repented and done well, are not forgiven and not considered chaste again? -
Salaam Hasan, all, especially those who think muhsanaat=chaste
It is easy to find out if a woman is married or not; but chaste? How? Are we going to follow rumors, forgetting verses496; 244 (muhsanaat can also commit fahisha 425). Even a convicted zaania is considered chaste after serving her punishment (245). How can you divide women, especially believing women (since marrying an idolatress or a non believer is prohibited) into chaste and not chaste?
Sister Samia,
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't every woman "chaste" until proven guilty? I mean If someone accuses a woman of misconduct, aren't they required 4 witnesses, etc.? If they can't prove it, then the woman is chaste, no?
Peace
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Sister Samia,
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't every woman "chaste" until proven guilty? I mean If someone accuses a woman of misconduct, aren't they required 4 witnesses, etc.? If they can't prove it, then the woman is chaste, no?
Peace
So according to Quranist explanation the ladies in the "red light areas 'running brothels are "CHASTE" because there are no four witnesses.
bravo bravo -
So according to Quranist explanation the ladies in the "red light areas 'running brothels are "CHASTE" because there are no four witnesses.
bravo bravojeechatter,
I am not sure but I believe that those "ladies" will be declared "un-chaste" because, in a genuine case where there is no tangible evidence, there will probably be more than 4 who will vouch for their "guilt". Consider the following example. There are a couple of friends. 1 of them is about to get married to a girl. A friend from his group of 10 friends "thinks" (or "knows", however you like it) that the girl is "un-chaste" and accuses her of being so in front of his about-to-get-married friend, who naturally would (& should, in the essence of being fair) ask him to prove it, if he is truthful. So, he, along with 3 more of his friends (male or female), says that they have seen the girl at a "red light" area and that should settle this matter, I think.
I must apologize to you, jeechatter, if I haven't been too helpful in answering your concern as I am not too proficient regarding the Book, as yet. But I do hope that God teaches me and helps me understand because I am very willing to learn from it.
Peace
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So according to Quranist explanation the ladies in the "red light areas 'running brothels are "CHASTE" because there are no four witnesses.
bravo bravoYes sherlock, innocent until proven guilty. As opposed to the traditional "girl fights off rapist and gets death penalty from imam/retard (delete as applicable)".
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God spells out the haram 14 women in 4-22, and 23 , and then for rest of the women uses the term mohsinat, meaning that one should look for a chaste woman.
Don't we all do that, when we are looking for a spouse?
God does not recommend a zania, or/and someone who's character is doubtful.
If I am persuing someone for marriage, and i get doubtful about her character owing to information from 3 or 4 independent sources, wouldn't that be enough to create a doubt , and wouldn't i be calling of my pursuit?
A woman becomes Zania if she is seen committing the act by 4 independent witnesses , is labeled as such ,is to be punished and married only to a zani or a Muhsriq ( 24,2-3)
If Zina can't be proved , but 4 independent people can vouch for her bad character(4 different people seeing her in red light area , or 4 people admitting /reporting dating her for haveing some sexual fun ) , In this situation she becomes guilty of comitting fahishas, and hence can not be called a "Mohsinna" However she escapes the label known as "Zania" (4-15)
siki
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So in other words, the quran sanctions suspicion between people and for them to make judgements based on information that can be considered very close to backbiting/slander? Everyone has doubts but putting your words into that of the quran is a new low. Well, it was, 1400 years ago.
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God spells out the haram 14 women in 4-22, and 23 , and then for rest of the women uses the term mohsinat, meaning that one should look for a chaste woman.
dont we all do that when we are looking for a spouse? God does not recommend a zania, and someone who's charater is doubtfull.
If i am persuing someone for marriage, and i get doubfull about her character owing to information from 3 or 4 independent sources, wouldnt that be enough to create a doubt , and wouldnt i be calling of my pursuit?
siki
The choice is yours, isn't it? If you don't want to marry someone based on your own suspicion, then don't. But don't accuse the lady of being a doubtful character until you can prove it. That is the gist of it, I think and honestly, very fair, in my opinion.
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the word nissakum has been used here instead of "Azwajukum" (nikahed wives) . The Allmighty has intentionally used this word to cover all the women with whom you have legal sexual relationships, like MMA etc. It even covers your illegal sexual relations .
It simply means that mother of some one with whom you have sexual relations, are "Haram" for ever. It is like, If i am sleeping with some one , she is my girl /my woman, is'nt she?
your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in(Wa rabaa-ibukumu allaatee fee hujoor ikum min nisaa ikumu allaatee dahaltum bihinna fa in lam takoonoo dakhaltum bihinna falaa junaaa Aaalaykum)
Who are those nisaa ikum whom you have not gone in; are they the women who are formally married to you or the women who you have legally sexual relationship with although they are not formally married to you?
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
The choice is yours, isn't it? If you don't want to marry someone based on your own suspicion, then don't. But don't accuse the lady of being a doubtful character until you can prove it. That is the gist of it, I think and honestly, very fair, in my opinion.
Ya , very well said , i agree.
siki
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your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in(Wa rabaa-ibukumu allaatee fee hujoor ikum min nisaa ikumu allaatee dahaltum bihinna fa in lam takoonoo dakhaltum bihinna falaa junaaa Aaalaykum)
Who are those nisaa ikum whom you have not gone in; are they the women who are formally married to you or the women who you have legally sexual relationship with although they are not formally married to you?
Peace,
Hasan AkcayHassan !
Brother to answer you , down below i am reproducing one of my previous posts, I hope it answers your qustion, but if still there are more you will find me more than willing to help you.
Quote from Mazhar on August 28, 2007, 024728 AM
deleted
reply by siki
Quran is very precise and deliberate in usage of words, and Devinne wisdom is matchless.4-22. Do not marry (tankahoo)the women who were previously married (nakhoo)to your fathers - existing marriages are exempted and shall not be broken - for it is a gross offense, and an abominable act.
4-23 Hurramat ,,,,,,and your stepdaughters who are in your guardianship, (born) of your wives to whom you have gone in, but if you have not gone in to them, there is no blame on you , ,,,,,
In the first one the line is set as nikah, if a woman was ever in a bond known as nikah with your father , then you are not suppose to marry her. Here the line has been drawn at Neither Dakhal, Nor lamstamum , but at nikah
logically speaking one could not find out that weather his father performed intercourse, or had sexually touched her , The only assured parameter is nikah. Moreover if a woman has been made one's step mother by relation , Her Hurmat has been established for ever.
And another important reason for not setting the line at dakhal or lamstamum is, That one can not be assured to find and filter out the women , who have been sexually enjoyed or Dakhooled by one's father, where as Nikahed are.
On the contrary , lets us analyse the wisdom behind 4-23( the step daughter case)
A woman in niikahed and is brought home, let us say that she brings along "trouble" in the shape of a beautiful young daughter, Here God sets the line to the last limit, which is Dakhal, and gives you the chance to reconsider your decision, does not matter that you have nikahed her or even sexually touched her.
This is an every day affair, plenty of such girls get abused by their step fathers. That is why God gives you every possible leverage , but wants to protect the young girl from abuse. And this girl becomes Haram for ever, so that the righteous do not ever think on such a line by terming it as an impossibility , and put aside their lust.
I am sorry for being explicit , but i guess, you asked for it.
peace
siki
Hassan !
It simply means if you have entered a woman ( legally or illegally, married or MMa, or contracted , or Mutta) touching her daughter is an incest from then on.
peace
siki
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Yes sherlock, innocent until proven guilty. As opposed to the traditional "girl fights off rapist and gets death penalty from imam/retard (delete as applicable)".
Four witnesses are not the only way to prove Zina.
But Quranists insist so that Brothels can prosper.A hidden agenda for which efforts ARE on the board.
So according to them
Red light areas community is CHASTE .
rotfl rotfl rotfl