Does Quran prohibit ?
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Salam Hasan,
I think there is a slight misunderstanding. When I asked sister about "aallathani" (written in Arabic as ) in 416, she replied that it is possible that it can mean "the two (a man and a woman) who". In 4129, the word is "allatheena" (written in Arabic as ), which I think addresses the populous, "those who", which would include both men and women.
As for question 2, I'd say, logically, before the divorce is finalised, because there is no sense for the lady to stay at the house or be restricted thereto after the final divorce.
Peace
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Salam Hasan,
I think there is a slight misunderstanding. When I asked sister about "aallathani" (written in Arabic as ) in 416, she replied that it is possible that it can mean "the two (a man and a woman) who". In 4129, the word is "allatheena" (written in Arabic as ), which I think addresses the populous, "those who", which would include both men and women.
As for question 2, I'd say, logically, before the divorce is finalised, because there is no sense for the lady to stay at the house or be restricted thereto after the final divorce.
Peace
Salam Sharp. Please excuse me for insisting but I read the word in 4129 as allathaine rather than allatheena.
As for my other question, I ask it because I am cahecking to learn whether the crime mentioned in 651 is kind of nushuuz mentioned in 434 and 4128. If it is, it is different from the faahisha mentioned in 415 and 416; therefore the punishmet it deserves will naturally be different.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Salam Hasan,
I must be misunderstanding something here, but are you implying (or insisting) that it is the same word in both 416 and 4129? or do you agree with my previous post in relation to your first question?
As for the nushuuz, I would probably say, that if it were to be so, then "nushuuz" would have been the reference made in 651, rather than fahasha. Further, I think that "nushuuz" translates to disrespect in both 434 and 4128.
Peace
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are you implying (or insisting) that it is the same word in both 416 and 4129?
Yes. That is actually what Samia said in her answer to you. She said You also find it in 4129 in the accusative form (as object) allathayn. "...Our Lord! show us those among both jinn and humans who led us astray..."
Your question is allathayn also a masculine form? Her answer Yes, it is masculine. It is allathaani itself, just grammatical difference, like the difference between al kitaabu and al kitaaba (the book)
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Ahh... Now I see... so basically you are saying that "those" and "them" are the same word, or at least, different forms of the same word. "Them" is the accusative form of "Those".
Ok, fair enough. So, back to your original question.
(1)In 416 the word allathaine stands for only males but in 4129 it may refer to a man and a woman as Samia points out in her answer to Sharp001. Is it really the case when the jinne and inse are taken into account in 4129?
Wa qaalallatheena kafaroo rabbana arenaallathaine adallanaa mina al-jinne wal-inse najAAal humaa tahta aqdaaminaa liyakoonaa mina al-asfaleenaa
And the unbelievers will say "Our Sustainer! Show us from among both of the invisible beings and humans that have led us astray we shall crush them under our feet, so that they shall be the lowest of all."
I suppose I am being unfair here, but I'll ask you this. In all of the instances in the Book, where "allatheena" (written in Arabic as ن is written, do you take them to be addressing "those (people and jinn) who"? I'm just trying to get your understanding here so that I may be able to answer your questions on the same platform.
Peace
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Peace
Somehow , I had always taken Nissa o kum in 4-15 to be the women under your guardianship (daughters, sisters etc) minus the Azwaj, because it never made sense (to lockup your spouses for the life time). As this law would invariably be misused by the husband to abuse and subjugate his wife.
And here i find the answer in 65-1, we have an exception to the rule,for the wives who commit Fahishas.
If the husband is not an eye witness, or if he does not want to report, but is sure (4 reliable witnesses) he may divorce and kick her out of the house.
Once she goes back to her father's house, and if he(father) is reasonably convinced about the instances(fahishas)/character, It becomes his responsibility to carry out the commandment in 4-15.
siki
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Salaam siki
Peace
Somehow , I had always taken Nissa o kum in 4-15 to be the women under your guardianship (daughters, sisters etc) minus the Azwaj, because it never made sense (to lockup your spouses for the life time). As this law would invariably be misused by the husband to abuse and subjugate his wife.
And here i find the answer in 65-1, we have an exception to the rule,for the wives who commit Fahishas.
If the husband is not an eye witness, or if he does not want to report, but is sure (4 reliable witnesses) he may divorce and kick her out of the house.
Once she goes back to her father's house, and if he(father) is reasonably convinced about the instances(fahishas)/character, It becomes his responsibility to carry out the commandment in 4-15.
siki
Poor woman!
Husband, brother, father...No escape!(daughters, sisters etc)
The address would be "banaatukum". "Nisaa'u of X" has always been used to mean "wives of X", just like "imra'atu of X" is the wife of X (where X is either a proper name or a possessive pronoun)
If the husband/wife has a kind of knowledge about the cheating of his/her spouse (other than 4 witnesses), he/she only has the oath when reporting to the authorities. Maybe after that they are not allowed to divorce and she/he has to stay in the house (wedlock) forever or until one dies. Their other option is to not report and they divorce.
I think this is the meaning of "...do not inherit women by force, nor make it hard for them to get some of what you gave them unless they have committed a proven fahisha" 419 (some men make the wives life hell, and when she wants a divorce "which he wants, too", he asks her to forfeit her allowance and any moneys he ows her).
Any other sister/daughter/son/brother, it's nobody's business unless they are caught by four witnesses.
As this law would invariably be misused by the husband to abuse and subjugate his wife.
Brother and father can, and do abuse it, too Honour killing is always carried out by these relatives, plus cousins.
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In all of the instances in the Book, where "allatheena" (written in Arabic as ) is written, do you take them to be addressing "those (people and jinn) who"?
Yes but only those who; that is, simply people; not necessarily people and jinn.
\ = Pronoun for two (Relative pronoun, literaly (who) Two men, or a man and a woman; but not two women)
Most of the time I understand the Arabic Quran without having to resorting to a translation I but don?t know Arabic. So, sister Samia, I depend on your explications. However, this time I am confused because you say that the pronoun in 416 may stand for a man and a woman.
I thought it stood for only men so that the fahisha the verse dealt with was male homosexuality.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Salaam siki
Poor woman!
Husband, brother, father...No escape!Salam samia,
Indeed she is, she has to behave herself, otherwise , her men are suppose to take care of her. I have seen , even young sons to set right their faultering mothers at a certain points in their lives.
The address would be "banaatukum". "Nisaa'u of X" has always been used to mean "wives of X", just like "imra'atu of X" is the wife of X (where X is either a proper name or a possessive pronoun)
Yes generally, but Nissa o kum simply means "Their women ", that could include all the women that a man is responsible for/takes care off.
One incident of "Nissa i hinna" i can remember off hand , is 24-31. The women to relax their dress code, and "Nissa i hinna" is used , along with the rest of the list. I am sure these "Niss i hinna" are not their spouses. And there could be more if one makes a deliberate effort to search.
)
If the husband/wife has a kind of knowledge about the cheating of his/her spouse (other than 4 witnesses), he/she only has the oath when reporting to the authorities. Maybe after that they are not allowed to divorce and she/he has to stay in the house (wedlock) forever or until one dies. Their other option is to not report and they divorce.
If the husband is not an eye witness, and hence cannot testify under an oath, but he gets solid reports of certain incidents by 4 reliable witnesses , in the light of which he can suspect with a reasonable assurance , that her wife is most likely committing Fahishas, Then he may divorce her , and kick her immediately out of the house.
As per she being locked up in the house for ever by the husband ? This is one of the worst options , i am quite sure that no women would like to be in those shoes
I think this is the meaning of "...do not inherit women by force, nor make it hard for them to get some of what you gave them unless they have committed a proved fahisha" 419 (some men make the wives life hell, and when she wants a divorce "which he wants, too", he asks her to forfeit her allowance and any moneys he ows her).
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Ya i agree , that generally happens.
Any other sister/daughter/son/brother, it's nobody's business unless they are caught by four witnesses
No samia , it is their business, it is every body's business to curb such things in the society , if a woman is on the loose, and is committing fahishas , it is anybody's/every body's business to do something , appropriate , like report the incident to her Father/brother, etc.
Brother and father can, and do abuse it, too Honour killing is always carried out by these relatives, plus cousins.
Ya, they can too, but a husband would most likely do it , whereas a father/brother are least likely to abuse such a power.
Quran does not advise honor killing, if someone does it , he/they are wrong.
peace
siki
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Salaam siki
Salam samia,
Indeed she is, she has to behave herself, otherwise , her men are suppose to take care of her.
And "he"? Doesn't "he" have to behave himself?
Is it your own opinion or you have supporting evidence? What happened to the verse 242? The existence of this verse is what makes me think in another way, not because I am a "woman" .Yes generally, but Nissa o kum simply means "Their women ", that could include all the women that a man is responsible for/takes care off.
If you scan the quraan, you will find this expression, when related to males, always means "wives".
One incident of "Nissa i hinna" i can remember off hand , is 24-31. The women to relax their dress code, and "Nissa i hinna" is used , along with the rest of the list. I am sure these "Niss i hinna" are not their spouses. And there could be more if one makes a delibrate effort to search.
I am glad you brought this up! I once argued against this very expression being "women" and the person I was arguing against was very angry.
Here, apply another meaning of "nisaa' males she is their guardien, supporting them financially, therefore they are either too young (already mentioned) or with disabilities (plus of course parents, brothers, husband..who are all mentioned already).If the husband is not an eye witness, and hence cannot testify under an oath, but he gets solid reports of certain incidents by 4 reliable witnesses , in the light of which he can suspect with a reasonable assurance , that her wife is most likely committing Fahishas, Then he may divorce her , and kick her immidiately out of the house.
Says who? <snetence in bold>
Please note that we have verse 419 which indicates just the opposite.Also verse 247. Why can't he testify under an oath? Either he blieves them and is ready to testify under an oath, or he inclines towards not believing them. No one is forcing him to do anything. If he wants to divorce her he has to go to authorities and make the oath. Otherwise, no divorce on these premises.
As per she being locked up in the house for ever by the husband ? This is one of the worst options , i am quite sure that no women would like to be in those shoes
Being locked up is bad, and I think we are missing something in this verse. How can we lock up somebody for a crime when we have another verse giving us a different punishment (242), and another verse telling the spouse what to do in this case if the stated evidence is not available(247).
Quran does not advise honor killing, if someone does it , he/they are wrong.
You are missing my point. What I want to say is that fathers and brothers can go as far as killing, locking up is their "mercy".
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Salaam Hasan
you say that the pronoun in 416 may stand for a man and a woman.
I thought it stood for only men so that the fahisha the verse dealt with was male homosexuality.
Peace,
Hasan AkcayYes, it could be two men or a man and a woman. You definitely have to say "allathaani" in (my brother and sister who "allathaani" live in Cairo). There is no other pronoun for that. There's, however, a different pronoun if they are both females allataani.
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Salaam siki
And "he"? Doesn't "he" have to behave himself?
Is it your own opinion or you have supporting evidence? What happened to the verse 242? The existence of this verse is what makes me think in another way, not because I am a "woman" .off course everyone is ordered to behave himself, but quran stresses upon controlling a lewd women , because if there is one such a woman on the loose , she is likely to find plenty of men, more than willing to go along , where as if there is no such availability, the men may be able to handle the surging testosterone in their blood.
Moreover this is not my opinion but , is suggested in 4-15 , and i think is very logical, God knows his creation the best.
What about 24-2? ???
it is self explanatory, why are you confusing the two issues, zina and committing Fahisha? i don't think we have any problem with 24-2 and what to do in case of ZinaZina is that one in a million chance when they are caught red handed performing the act by 4 people , and God's commandments are very clear what to do in such a scenario.
peace
siki
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Salaam siki
If you scan the quraan, you will find this expression, when related to males, always means "wives".
I am glad you brought this up! I once argued against this very expression being "women" and the person I was arguing against was very angry.
Here, apply another meaning of "nisaa' males she is their guardien, supporting them financially, therefore they are either too young (already mentioned) or with disabilities (plus of course parents, brothers, husband..who are all mentioned already).I will check the occurrences and get back to you.
however , the expression "Your women" in any language, would never lock the expression to the meaning of Azwaj only. and we have a clear proof in 24-31.
24-31And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women(Nissa i hinna), or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful
This is very clear in the above verse what does nissai hinna mean , if you have some new theory, we can open a new thread and discuss the nissa i hinna separately.
siki
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Says who? <snetence in bold>
Please note that we have verse 419 which indicates just the opposite.65-1.O Prophet! when you divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed time, and calculate the number of the days prescribed, and be careful of Allah, your Lord. Do not drive them out of their houses, nor should they themselves go forth, unless they commit an open indecency(Fahishas); and these are the limits of Allah, and whoever goes beyond the limits of Allah, he indeed does injustice to his own soul. You do not know that Allah may after that bring about reunion
I didn't say that , but my dumb brain deduces out of the above red sentence of the verse.
Even your favorite 4-19 says that . please read4-19O you who believe! it is not lawful for you that you should take women as heritage against (their) will, and do not straighten them in order that you may take part of what you have given them, unless they are guilty of manifest indecency(fahishas), and treat them kindly; then if you hate them, it may be that you dislike a thing while Allah has placed abundant good in it.
Men are being advised to treat women with compassion , but if they are guilty of committing Fahishas? then i guess , there is no sin upon us , if we kick them out or act misers while calling it a day.
siki
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Salaam siki
Also verse 247. Why can't he testify under an oath? Either he believes them and is ready to testify under an oath, or he inclines towards not believing them. No one is forcing him to do anything. If he wants to divorce her he has to go to authorities and make the oath. Otherwise, no divorce on these premises.
Samia
i have failed to understand , why a knowledgable person like you,first confused the zina with fahisha situation, and now again is confusing Fahisha situation with 24-7 , which is totally a different scenario.
If a spouse is a sole witness to zina , that is where the oath comes in and that is what 24-7 is talking about.
come on lady , wake up, (guess you were sleepy while composing answers for my last post)
siki
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Being locked up is bad, and I think we are missing something in this verse. How can we lock up somebody for a crime when we have another verse giving us a different punishment (242), and another verse telling the spouse what to do in this case if the stated evidence is not available(247).
Samia !
Do you know the difference between "Zina", "committing Fahisha", "and a situation where a spouse catches the other red handed, but does not have three more people witnessing the act"?
samia! imagine ,one day i come back home (inadvertently) early , and find (God forbids) my wife in a compromising position with an other man, in my bed room.
i have two choices ,
(1) sneak out secretly and call three more guys, and make them witness the act.
If not
(2) then i cant even talk about it, because 24-4 is waiting for me with 80 lashes.
The all mighty in his infinite mercy allows a special arrangement in this scenario , which is much more likely than a general 24-2, 24-4 situation.
siki
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You are missing my point. What I want to say is that fathers and brothers can go as far as killing, locking up is their "mercy".
Samia!
you are missing my point, i mean to say that if there are some people who would be relatively caring and compassionate, they would be fathers and/or brothers.
The husbands, in such a situation is going to be one of the worst , if given a licence to do so, off course exceptions are there for each category.siki