Does Quran prohibit ?
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Salaam siki
Peace
Somehow , I had always taken Nissa o kum in 4-15 to be the women under your guardianship (daughters, sisters etc) minus the Azwaj, because it never made sense (to lockup your spouses for the life time). As this law would invariably be misused by the husband to abuse and subjugate his wife.
And here i find the answer in 65-1, we have an exception to the rule,for the wives who commit Fahishas.
If the husband is not an eye witness, or if he does not want to report, but is sure (4 reliable witnesses) he may divorce and kick her out of the house.
Once she goes back to her father's house, and if he(father) is reasonably convinced about the instances(fahishas)/character, It becomes his responsibility to carry out the commandment in 4-15.
siki
Poor woman!
Husband, brother, father...No escape!(daughters, sisters etc)
The address would be "banaatukum". "Nisaa'u of X" has always been used to mean "wives of X", just like "imra'atu of X" is the wife of X (where X is either a proper name or a possessive pronoun)
If the husband/wife has a kind of knowledge about the cheating of his/her spouse (other than 4 witnesses), he/she only has the oath when reporting to the authorities. Maybe after that they are not allowed to divorce and she/he has to stay in the house (wedlock) forever or until one dies. Their other option is to not report and they divorce.
I think this is the meaning of "...do not inherit women by force, nor make it hard for them to get some of what you gave them unless they have committed a proven fahisha" 419 (some men make the wives life hell, and when she wants a divorce "which he wants, too", he asks her to forfeit her allowance and any moneys he ows her).
Any other sister/daughter/son/brother, it's nobody's business unless they are caught by four witnesses.
As this law would invariably be misused by the husband to abuse and subjugate his wife.
Brother and father can, and do abuse it, too Honour killing is always carried out by these relatives, plus cousins.
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In all of the instances in the Book, where "allatheena" (written in Arabic as ) is written, do you take them to be addressing "those (people and jinn) who"?
Yes but only those who; that is, simply people; not necessarily people and jinn.
\ = Pronoun for two (Relative pronoun, literaly (who) Two men, or a man and a woman; but not two women)
Most of the time I understand the Arabic Quran without having to resorting to a translation I but don?t know Arabic. So, sister Samia, I depend on your explications. However, this time I am confused because you say that the pronoun in 416 may stand for a man and a woman.
I thought it stood for only men so that the fahisha the verse dealt with was male homosexuality.
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Salaam siki
Poor woman!
Husband, brother, father...No escape!Salam samia,
Indeed she is, she has to behave herself, otherwise , her men are suppose to take care of her. I have seen , even young sons to set right their faultering mothers at a certain points in their lives.
The address would be "banaatukum". "Nisaa'u of X" has always been used to mean "wives of X", just like "imra'atu of X" is the wife of X (where X is either a proper name or a possessive pronoun)
Yes generally, but Nissa o kum simply means "Their women ", that could include all the women that a man is responsible for/takes care off.
One incident of "Nissa i hinna" i can remember off hand , is 24-31. The women to relax their dress code, and "Nissa i hinna" is used , along with the rest of the list. I am sure these "Niss i hinna" are not their spouses. And there could be more if one makes a deliberate effort to search.
)
If the husband/wife has a kind of knowledge about the cheating of his/her spouse (other than 4 witnesses), he/she only has the oath when reporting to the authorities. Maybe after that they are not allowed to divorce and she/he has to stay in the house (wedlock) forever or until one dies. Their other option is to not report and they divorce.
If the husband is not an eye witness, and hence cannot testify under an oath, but he gets solid reports of certain incidents by 4 reliable witnesses , in the light of which he can suspect with a reasonable assurance , that her wife is most likely committing Fahishas, Then he may divorce her , and kick her immediately out of the house.
As per she being locked up in the house for ever by the husband ? This is one of the worst options , i am quite sure that no women would like to be in those shoes
I think this is the meaning of "...do not inherit women by force, nor make it hard for them to get some of what you gave them unless they have committed a proved fahisha" 419 (some men make the wives life hell, and when she wants a divorce "which he wants, too", he asks her to forfeit her allowance and any moneys he ows her).
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Ya i agree , that generally happens.
Any other sister/daughter/son/brother, it's nobody's business unless they are caught by four witnesses
No samia , it is their business, it is every body's business to curb such things in the society , if a woman is on the loose, and is committing fahishas , it is anybody's/every body's business to do something , appropriate , like report the incident to her Father/brother, etc.
Brother and father can, and do abuse it, too Honour killing is always carried out by these relatives, plus cousins.
Ya, they can too, but a husband would most likely do it , whereas a father/brother are least likely to abuse such a power.
Quran does not advise honor killing, if someone does it , he/they are wrong.
peace
siki
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Salaam siki
Salam samia,
Indeed she is, she has to behave herself, otherwise , her men are suppose to take care of her.
And "he"? Doesn't "he" have to behave himself?
Is it your own opinion or you have supporting evidence? What happened to the verse 242? The existence of this verse is what makes me think in another way, not because I am a "woman" .Yes generally, but Nissa o kum simply means "Their women ", that could include all the women that a man is responsible for/takes care off.
If you scan the quraan, you will find this expression, when related to males, always means "wives".
One incident of "Nissa i hinna" i can remember off hand , is 24-31. The women to relax their dress code, and "Nissa i hinna" is used , along with the rest of the list. I am sure these "Niss i hinna" are not their spouses. And there could be more if one makes a delibrate effort to search.
I am glad you brought this up! I once argued against this very expression being "women" and the person I was arguing against was very angry.
Here, apply another meaning of "nisaa' males she is their guardien, supporting them financially, therefore they are either too young (already mentioned) or with disabilities (plus of course parents, brothers, husband..who are all mentioned already).If the husband is not an eye witness, and hence cannot testify under an oath, but he gets solid reports of certain incidents by 4 reliable witnesses , in the light of which he can suspect with a reasonable assurance , that her wife is most likely committing Fahishas, Then he may divorce her , and kick her immidiately out of the house.
Says who? <snetence in bold>
Please note that we have verse 419 which indicates just the opposite.Also verse 247. Why can't he testify under an oath? Either he blieves them and is ready to testify under an oath, or he inclines towards not believing them. No one is forcing him to do anything. If he wants to divorce her he has to go to authorities and make the oath. Otherwise, no divorce on these premises.
As per she being locked up in the house for ever by the husband ? This is one of the worst options , i am quite sure that no women would like to be in those shoes
Being locked up is bad, and I think we are missing something in this verse. How can we lock up somebody for a crime when we have another verse giving us a different punishment (242), and another verse telling the spouse what to do in this case if the stated evidence is not available(247).
Quran does not advise honor killing, if someone does it , he/they are wrong.
You are missing my point. What I want to say is that fathers and brothers can go as far as killing, locking up is their "mercy".
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Salaam Hasan
you say that the pronoun in 416 may stand for a man and a woman.
I thought it stood for only men so that the fahisha the verse dealt with was male homosexuality.
Peace,
Hasan AkcayYes, it could be two men or a man and a woman. You definitely have to say "allathaani" in (my brother and sister who "allathaani" live in Cairo). There is no other pronoun for that. There's, however, a different pronoun if they are both females allataani.
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Salaam siki
And "he"? Doesn't "he" have to behave himself?
Is it your own opinion or you have supporting evidence? What happened to the verse 242? The existence of this verse is what makes me think in another way, not because I am a "woman" .off course everyone is ordered to behave himself, but quran stresses upon controlling a lewd women , because if there is one such a woman on the loose , she is likely to find plenty of men, more than willing to go along , where as if there is no such availability, the men may be able to handle the surging testosterone in their blood.
Moreover this is not my opinion but , is suggested in 4-15 , and i think is very logical, God knows his creation the best.
What about 24-2? ???
it is self explanatory, why are you confusing the two issues, zina and committing Fahisha? i don't think we have any problem with 24-2 and what to do in case of ZinaZina is that one in a million chance when they are caught red handed performing the act by 4 people , and God's commandments are very clear what to do in such a scenario.
peace
siki
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Salaam siki
If you scan the quraan, you will find this expression, when related to males, always means "wives".
I am glad you brought this up! I once argued against this very expression being "women" and the person I was arguing against was very angry.
Here, apply another meaning of "nisaa' males she is their guardien, supporting them financially, therefore they are either too young (already mentioned) or with disabilities (plus of course parents, brothers, husband..who are all mentioned already).I will check the occurrences and get back to you.
however , the expression "Your women" in any language, would never lock the expression to the meaning of Azwaj only. and we have a clear proof in 24-31.
24-31And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women(Nissa i hinna), or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful
This is very clear in the above verse what does nissai hinna mean , if you have some new theory, we can open a new thread and discuss the nissa i hinna separately.
siki
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Says who? <snetence in bold>
Please note that we have verse 419 which indicates just the opposite.65-1.O Prophet! when you divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed time, and calculate the number of the days prescribed, and be careful of Allah, your Lord. Do not drive them out of their houses, nor should they themselves go forth, unless they commit an open indecency(Fahishas); and these are the limits of Allah, and whoever goes beyond the limits of Allah, he indeed does injustice to his own soul. You do not know that Allah may after that bring about reunion
I didn't say that , but my dumb brain deduces out of the above red sentence of the verse.
Even your favorite 4-19 says that . please read4-19O you who believe! it is not lawful for you that you should take women as heritage against (their) will, and do not straighten them in order that you may take part of what you have given them, unless they are guilty of manifest indecency(fahishas), and treat them kindly; then if you hate them, it may be that you dislike a thing while Allah has placed abundant good in it.
Men are being advised to treat women with compassion , but if they are guilty of committing Fahishas? then i guess , there is no sin upon us , if we kick them out or act misers while calling it a day.
siki
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Salaam siki
Also verse 247. Why can't he testify under an oath? Either he believes them and is ready to testify under an oath, or he inclines towards not believing them. No one is forcing him to do anything. If he wants to divorce her he has to go to authorities and make the oath. Otherwise, no divorce on these premises.
Samia
i have failed to understand , why a knowledgable person like you,first confused the zina with fahisha situation, and now again is confusing Fahisha situation with 24-7 , which is totally a different scenario.
If a spouse is a sole witness to zina , that is where the oath comes in and that is what 24-7 is talking about.
come on lady , wake up, (guess you were sleepy while composing answers for my last post)
siki
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Being locked up is bad, and I think we are missing something in this verse. How can we lock up somebody for a crime when we have another verse giving us a different punishment (242), and another verse telling the spouse what to do in this case if the stated evidence is not available(247).
Samia !
Do you know the difference between "Zina", "committing Fahisha", "and a situation where a spouse catches the other red handed, but does not have three more people witnessing the act"?
samia! imagine ,one day i come back home (inadvertently) early , and find (God forbids) my wife in a compromising position with an other man, in my bed room.
i have two choices ,
(1) sneak out secretly and call three more guys, and make them witness the act.
If not
(2) then i cant even talk about it, because 24-4 is waiting for me with 80 lashes.
The all mighty in his infinite mercy allows a special arrangement in this scenario , which is much more likely than a general 24-2, 24-4 situation.
siki
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You are missing my point. What I want to say is that fathers and brothers can go as far as killing, locking up is their "mercy".
Samia!
you are missing my point, i mean to say that if there are some people who would be relatively caring and compassionate, they would be fathers and/or brothers.
The husbands, in such a situation is going to be one of the worst , if given a licence to do so, off course exceptions are there for each category.siki
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Salaam siki
off course everyone is ordered to behave himself, but quran stresses upon controlling a lewd women , because if there is one such a woman on the loose , she is likely to find plenty of men, more than willing to go along , where as if there is no such availability, the men may be able to handle the surging testosterone in their blood.
We can also reverse the logic If there are no men who are willing to pay for sex, if there are no clients, the trade will stop.
Do you think this surging testosterone will stop if zina stops? What about rape as an alternative? Homosexuality (as in prisons, boarding schools, societies seggregating between the sexes...etc)?
You cannot say who is more responsible. It takes two to "prostitute", and that's why God says "The zaania and the zaani..."
What about 24-2?
it is self explanatory, why are you confusing the two issues, zina and committing Fahisha? i don't think we have any problem with 24-2 and what to do in case of ZinaZina is that one in a million chance when they are caught red handed performing the act by 4 people , and God's commandments are very clear what to do in such a scenario.
This "fahiha" also calls for 4 witnesses. Its punishment is more severe...what's it?
I am not confusing anything, otherwise I would not say that we are missing something. -
I will check the occurrences and get back to you.
however , the expression "Your women" in any language, would never lock the expression to the meaning of Azwaj only. and we have a clear proof in 24-31.
24-31And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women(Nissa i hinna), or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful
This is very clear in the above verse what does nissai hinna mean , if you have some new theory, we can open a new thread and discuss the nissa i hinna separately.
siki
Siki!! This is the very verse that you (and I ) find as an exception. Why do you put it as an example? Moreover, I said "when related to males.."
One incident of "Nissa i hinna" i can remember off hand , is 24-31. The women to relax their dress code, and "Nissa i hinna" is used , along with the rest of the list. I am sure these "Niss i hinna" are not their spouses. And there could be more if one makes a deliberate effort to search.
Look at these two underlined verses Why would we need deliberate effort to search the meaning of "nisaa'ihinna" if it is very clear (both are your sayings)?
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I will check the occurrences and get back to you.
however , the expression "Your women" in any language, would never lock the expression to the meaning of Azwaj only. and we have a clear proof in 24-31.
24-31And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women(Nissa i hinna), or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful
Those "or their women", as far as I can see, refers to the wives of all those men that have been mentioned, that is the wives of the the husband's father... up to the sisters' sons. I can't see why it would mean anything else, since that seems to be pretty inclusive and any way and is the perfect parallel with the male part. It is interesting though that this "liberty" to dress is not male restricted, which seems to implay that the restrictions outside the family are not male restricted either and that we may have been looking at the whole thing with a very restricted view also.
Salaam
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65-1.O Prophet! when you divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed time, and calculate the number of the days prescribed, and be careful of Allah, your Lord. Do not drive them out of their houses, nor should they themselves go forth, unless they commit an open indecency(Fahishas); and these are the limits of Allah, and whoever goes beyond the limits of Allah, he indeed does injustice to his own soul. You do not know that Allah may after that bring about reunion
I didn't say that , but my dumb brain deduces out of the above red sentence of the verse.
Even your favorite 4-19 says that . please read4-19O you who believe! it is not lawful for you that you should take women as heritage against (their) will, and do not straighten them in order that you may take part of what you have given them, unless they are guilty of manifest indecency(fahishas), and treat them kindly; then if you hate them, it may be that you dislike a thing while Allah has placed abundant good in it.
Men are being advised to treat women with compassion , but if they are guilty of committing Fahishas? then i guess , there is no sin upon us , if we kick them out or act misers while calling it a day.
siki
I agree with you, I missed verse 651, and this adds even more to my confusion!
Please read verses 651, 419 and 415 and tell me the difference between the fahisha in verses 651; 419, which calls for "kicking" the wife out explicitly or implicitly, and verse 415 which calls for them to be "locked" in the house, on one hand, and zina on the other hand. I am not challenging, but honestly I do not know. Moreover, it is all about "women". Why? What if a man commits it? How will he be locked in the house? What about the man with whom she committed the fahisha?
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Those "or their women", as far as I can see, refers to the wives of all those men that have been mentioned, that is the wives of the the husband's father... up to the sisters' sons. I can't see why it would mean anything else, since that seems to be pretty inclusive and any way and is the perfect parallel with the male part. It is interesting though that this "liberty" to dress is not male restricted, which seems to implay that the restrictions outside the family are not male restricted either and that we may have been looking at the whole thing with a very restricted view also.
Salaam
It should be "nisa'uhum" in this case. The suffixed "hunna" means that the posessor is females.
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May I put in my opinion so that I will check to see if I you agree.
First about Samia's questioning the difference between the fahisha in verses 651; 419, which calls for "kicking" the wife out explicitly or implicitly, and verse 415 which calls for them to be "locked" in the house, on one hand, and zina on the other hand.
The kind of fahisha mentioned in 651 and 419 is indecency such as a woman's kissing a man other than her husband on the lips. It is kind of preliminary to sexual intercourse, therefore regarded as a cause for divorce. On the other hand, the one mentioned in 415 is kind of real intercourse between two women, which deserves imprisonment. The crimes are different and so must the punishments be.
As for the expression nisaa uhum, I am confused again at Samia's taking it to mean only wives (azwaaj) as it covers also the daughters of the believers in 3359. Or are the daughters prevented from wearing the jilbaab?
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
It should be "nisa'uhum" in this case. The suffixed "hunna" means that the posessor is females.
Yes, you are indeed right. So it is not "their women", meaning the women of the men, but "their" women, meaning the women of the women. I didn't even bother to look at carefully so imbued we seem to be with it being the women of the men.
But then this is something that doesn't have anythign to do with sex as we have been lead to consider the thing with the "mahram" and hiyab arguments.
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May I put in my opinion so that I will check to see if I you agree.
First about Samia's questioning the difference between the fahisha in verses 651; 419, which calls for "kicking" the wife out explicitly or implicitly, and verse 415 which calls for them to be "locked" in the house, on one hand, and zina on the other hand.
The kind of fahisha mentioned in 651 and 419 is indecency such as a woman's kissing a man other than her husband on the lips. It is kind of preliminary to sexual intercourse, therefore regarded as a cause for divorce. On the other hand, the one mentioned in 415 is kind of real intercourse between two women, which deserves imprisonment. The crimes are different and so must the punishments be.
As for the expression nisaa uhum, I am confused again at Samia's taking it to mean only wives (azwaaj) as it covers also the daughters of the believers in 3359. Or are the daughters prevented from wearing the jilbaab?
Peace,
Hasan AkcaySalaam Hasan
You did not respond to the second part of my confusion regarding the three verses Why it is just about women?What if the wife finds her husband kissing another woman? What if she finds him in bed with another man? The quraan told us about "the zaania and the zaani". Why is it silent here as for the male partner and how to punish him?
As for verse 3359, remeber that the verse says O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the wives of the believers...". It's clear that "nisaa'" here does not include "daughters" as per the address to the prophet.