Does Quran prohibit ?
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May I put in my opinion so that I will check to see if I you agree.
First about Samia's questioning the difference between the fahisha in verses 651; 419, which calls for "kicking" the wife out explicitly or implicitly, and verse 415 which calls for them to be "locked" in the house, on one hand, and zina on the other hand.
The kind of fahisha mentioned in 651 and 419 is indecency such as a woman's kissing a man other than her husband on the lips. It is kind of preliminary to sexual intercourse, therefore regarded as a cause for divorce. On the other hand, the one mentioned in 415 is kind of real intercourse between two women, which deserves imprisonment. The crimes are different and so must the punishments be.
As for the expression nisaa uhum, I am confused again at Samia's taking it to mean only wives (azwaaj) as it covers also the daughters of the believers in 3359. Or are the daughters prevented from wearing the jilbaab?
Peace,
Hasan AkcaySalaam Hasan
You did not respond to the second part of my confusion regarding the three verses Why it is just about women?What if the wife finds her husband kissing another woman? What if she finds him in bed with another man? The quraan told us about "the zaania and the zaani". Why is it silent here as for the male partner and how to punish him?
As for verse 3359, remeber that the verse says O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the wives of the believers...". It's clear that "nisaa'" here does not include "daughters" as per the address to the prophet.
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You did not respond to the second part of my confusion regarding the three verses Why it is just about women? What if the wife finds her husband kissing another woman? What if she finds him in bed with another man? The quraan told us about "the zaania and the zaani". Why is it silent here as for the male partner and how to punish him?
Salaam Samia.
If the wife finds her husband kissing another woman she does what he would do if he found her kissing another man, since exchanging lustful kisses with aliens is nushuuz (434, 412, a kind of faahisha, opposite of which is what the wife is supposed to guard in her husband's absence, that is, chastity. (434).
As for verse 3359, remeber that the verse says O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the wives of the believers...". It's clear that "nisaa'" here does not include "daughters" as per the address to the prophet.
In 3359 there is no uncertainty concerning the daughters of the Prophet since God addresses the Prophet and says banaat ekah. So I did not ask about them.
I asked about banaati'l momemeen, which is missing from the verse. My question was "Doesn't the expression nisaai'l momeneen cover their daughters as well as their wives?"
Or are the daughters of the believers prevented from wearing the jalaabib?
Peace,
Hasan Akcay -
Salaam Samia.
In 3359 there is no uncertainty concerning the daughters of the Prophet since God addresses the Prophet and says banaat ekah. So I did not ask about them.
I asked about banaati'l momemeen, which is missing from the verse. My question was "Doesn't the expression nisaai'l momeneen cover their daughters as well as their wives?"
Or are the daughters of the believers prevented from wearing the jalaabib?
Peace,
Hasan Akcaysamia! salam
I was about to post this point , when brother hassan took the lead, this is very clear proof that nissa o kum, or nissa i hinna does not limit the expression to azwaj only.
Nissa ol momineen means , all the women that a momin is responsible for including sisters ,daughters , mothers, azwajs ,and any body else who is under his guardian ship.
33-59 mentions azwajs and daughters for the prophet, cause Mohammad(pbuh) did not have any sister and his mother was not alive then.
siki
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I guess they will be a little too compassionate for the spirit of punishment.
Moreover this is not their territory.
siki
Should all that has been said in this thread regarding the punishment be right, I don't think it is so much a question of what somebody guesses, but as to what the qur'an says and of actual facts, and it is a fact that women can be just as hard as any man and men just as soft as any woman, also with kin. And I can't see why compassion is incompatible with punishment.
As to the territory, can you give some aya where such thing is stated?
Salam
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Salaam siki
We can also reverse the logic If there are no men who are willing to pay for sex, if there are no clients, the trade will stop.
Do you think this surging testosterone will stop if zina stops? What about rape as an alternative? Homosexuality (as in prisons, boarding schools, societies seggregating between the sexes...etc)?
You cannot say who is more responsible. It takes two to "prostitute", and that's why God says "The zaania and the zaani..."
This "fahiha" also calls for 4 witnesses. Its punishment is more severe...what's it?
I am not confusing anything, otherwise I would not say that we are missing something.Yes , we could control either end, but looking at it practically, it is relatively much easy to restrain a loose character woman to tackle the problem , rather than the men.
Let me give credit to women here , they are much better in handling their lusts, in comparison to men, and this is primarily due to design difference in their sexuality.
In reverse scenario, i guess 90% of Men population will be locked up.siki
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Should all that has been said in this thread regarding the punishment be right, I don't think it is so much a question of what somebody guesses, but as to what the qur'an says and of actual facts, and it is a fact that women can be just as hard as any man and men just as soft as any woman, also with kin. And I can't see why compassion is incompatible with punishment.
As to the territory, can you give some aya where such thing is stated?
Salampicktell.4-34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great
sher ali 4-34 Men are guardians over women because Allah has made some of them excel others, and because men spend on them of their wealth. So virtuous women are obedient, and guard the secrets of their husbands with Allah's protection. And as for those on whose part you fear disobedience, admonish them and keep away from them in their beds and chastise them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Surely, Allah is High and Great
yousaf ali 4-34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance) For God is Most High, great (above you all
come on sister, lets get out of this business of proving equality , and get back to learning.
peace
siki
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I agree with you, I missed verse 651, and this adds even more to my confusion!
Please read verses 651, 419 and 415 and tell me the difference between the fahisha in verses 651; 419, which calls for "kicking" the wife out explicitly or implicitly, and verse 415 which calls for them to be "locked" in the house, on one hand, and zina on the other hand. I am not challenging, but honestly I do not know. Moreover, it is all about "women". Why? What if a man commits it? How will he be locked in the house? What about the man with whom she committed the fahisha?
Samia , salam
If you go back few pages and read my previous posts , i have explained the difference in three scenarios , and their practical suitability.
There are distinctly three categories we are dealing with.
Case of Zina.
women committing Fahishas.
case of Fahisha/intercourse witnessed solely by the spouse.
samia ! you are confusing/intermingling all three.
siki
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Samia , salam
If you go back few pages and read my previous posts , i have explained the difference in three scenarios , and their practical suitability.
There are distinctly three categories we are dealing with.
Case of Zina.
women committing Fahishas.
case of Fahisha/intercourse witnessed solely by the spouse.
samia ! you are confusing/intermingling all three.
siki
I did read this post of yours and that's why I did not, and still don't see the differences!
case of fahisha/intercourse witnessed solely by the spouse,
as in verse 246 "and those who accuse their spouses and have no witnesses other than themselves"? What's the difference with zina?
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Samia !
Do you know the difference between "Zina", "committing Fahisha", "and a situation where a spouse catches the other red handed, but does not have three more people witnessing the act"?
samia! imagine ,one day i come back home (inadvertently) early , and find (God forbids) my wife in a compromising position with an other man, in my bed room.
i have two choices ,
(1) sneak out secretly and call three more guys, and make them witness the act (which will be something very shamefull for me to do)
If not,
(2) then i can't even talk about it, because 24-4 will be waiting for me with 80 lashes.
The all mighty in his infinite mercy allows a special arrangement in this scenario , which is much more likely than a general 24-2, 24-4 situation.
siki
You can start with re-reading/understanding the above post , posted by me yesterday.
Have a good day.
siki
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samia! salam
I was about to post this point , when brother hassan took the lead, this is very clear proof that nissa o kum, or nissa i hinna does not limit the expression to azwaj only.
Nissa ol momineen means , all the women that a momin is responsible for including sisters ,daughters , mothers, azwajs ,and any body else who is under his guardian ship.
33-59 mentions azwajs and daughters for the prophet, cause Mohammad(pbuh) did not have any sister and his mother was not alive then.
siki
How do you know that the prophet had no sisters and his mother was not alive? Who is being addressed in this verse
1723 " And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him and that you be dutiful to the parents. if one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect , nor shout at them but address them in terms of honour"?
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Dear brother, I don't know where you have been while this particular aya has been discussed for hundreds of times. Where have you been all that time? What are you talking about? Where on earth in this aya, in Arabic, are kinsmen made into judges and executioners of punishments on women. Indeed, I have the impression (surely wrong) that you even relish it. To start with, what you quote, refers to just one instance of something that is called nushuz and not fahisha or zina, and even then, there are plenty of understandings of it around that are not your understanding. You pick the one that suits you. Good for you. Congratulations. As for me, I find that condescending and lecturing attitudes do not add an iota to any argument, and I expect any statement to git the facts and not somebody's delusions. In fact it reminds me of the suave way the catholic priests adress objections from their aura of infallibility. More and more I have the impression that traditional Muslims, hadithists or not, have switched their past with that of a decadent catholic church on its way out. To the point that the church in fact, as you may know, has its own courts and judges. Conceded though, always much better than a husband, father, brother or whatever turned into a judge and executioner.
Yes, dear brother, let's get out of this fools paradise where men are next to God and women querulous tenant-cum-servants and start learning from reality and not from re-heated mental brews.
Salaam
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Dear brother, I don't know where you have been while this particular aya has been discussed for hundreds of times. Where have you been all that time? What are you talking about? Where on earth in this aya, in Arabic, are kinsmen made into judges and executioners of punishments on women. Indeed, I have the impression (surely wrong) that you even relish it. To start with, what you quote, refers to just one instance of something that is called nushuz and not fahisha or zina, and even then, there are plenty of understandings of it around that are not your understanding. You pick the one that suits you. Good for you. Congratulations. As for me, I find that condescending and lecturing attitudes do not add an iota to any argument, and I expect any statement to git the facts and not somebody's delusions. In fact it reminds me of the suave way the catholic priests adress objections from their aura of infallibility. More and more I have the impression that traditional Muslims, hadithists or not, have switched their past with that of a decadent catholic church on its way out. To the point that the church in fact, as you may know, has its own courts and judges. Conceded though, always much better than a husband, father, brother or whatever turned into a judge and executioner.
Yes, dear brother, let's get out of this fools paradise where men are next to God and women querulous tenant-cum-servants and start learning from reality and not from re-heated mental brews.
Salaam
Salam
sister ! you asked me to show you the territory, and i showed you as to how does God allmighty define the roles of his creation, and i highlighted in bold specially the first two/relevent sentences only. Meanings of the rest of the verse is out of the scope of this topic and i decline to comment any further with you.
Just to add , i have been here all along debating this topic in detail with every one , so lets just leave it out.
peace
siki
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yes that is , and that is what i am explaining, i have failed to understand what exactly is your objection?
siki
The point is you put it in a category of its own, not with zina; whereas the verse is in continuity with those of zina (242-7)
Samia , salam
If you go back few pages and read my previous posts , i have explained the difference in three scenarios , and their practical suitability.
There are distinctly three categories we are dealing with.
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Case of Zina.
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women committing Fahishas.
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case of Fahisha/intercourse witnessed solely by the spouse.
samia ! you are confusing/intermingling all three.
siki
(numbering by me)
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Salam
sister ! you asked me to show you the territory, and i showed you as to how I understand how does God allmighty define the roles of his creation, and i highlighted in bold specially the first two/relevent sentences only. Meanings of the rest of the verse is out of the scope of this topic and i decline to comment any further with you.
Just to add , i have been here all along debating this topic in detail with every one , so lets just leave it out.
peace
siki
Please allow the slight correction!!