Does Quran prohibit ?
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Should all that has been said in this thread regarding the punishment be right, I don't think it is so much a question of what somebody guesses, but as to what the qur'an says and of actual facts, and it is a fact that women can be just as hard as any man and men just as soft as any woman, also with kin. And I can't see why compassion is incompatible with punishment.
As to the territory, can you give some aya where such thing is stated?
Salampicktell.4-34 Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great
sher ali 4-34 Men are guardians over women because Allah has made some of them excel others, and because men spend on them of their wealth. So virtuous women are obedient, and guard the secrets of their husbands with Allah's protection. And as for those on whose part you fear disobedience, admonish them and keep away from them in their beds and chastise them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Surely, Allah is High and Great
yousaf ali 4-34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance) For God is Most High, great (above you all
come on sister, lets get out of this business of proving equality , and get back to learning.
peace
siki
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I agree with you, I missed verse 651, and this adds even more to my confusion!
Please read verses 651, 419 and 415 and tell me the difference between the fahisha in verses 651; 419, which calls for "kicking" the wife out explicitly or implicitly, and verse 415 which calls for them to be "locked" in the house, on one hand, and zina on the other hand. I am not challenging, but honestly I do not know. Moreover, it is all about "women". Why? What if a man commits it? How will he be locked in the house? What about the man with whom she committed the fahisha?
Samia , salam
If you go back few pages and read my previous posts , i have explained the difference in three scenarios , and their practical suitability.
There are distinctly three categories we are dealing with.
Case of Zina.
women committing Fahishas.
case of Fahisha/intercourse witnessed solely by the spouse.
samia ! you are confusing/intermingling all three.
siki
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Samia , salam
If you go back few pages and read my previous posts , i have explained the difference in three scenarios , and their practical suitability.
There are distinctly three categories we are dealing with.
Case of Zina.
women committing Fahishas.
case of Fahisha/intercourse witnessed solely by the spouse.
samia ! you are confusing/intermingling all three.
siki
I did read this post of yours and that's why I did not, and still don't see the differences!
case of fahisha/intercourse witnessed solely by the spouse,
as in verse 246 "and those who accuse their spouses and have no witnesses other than themselves"? What's the difference with zina?
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Samia !
Do you know the difference between "Zina", "committing Fahisha", "and a situation where a spouse catches the other red handed, but does not have three more people witnessing the act"?
samia! imagine ,one day i come back home (inadvertently) early , and find (God forbids) my wife in a compromising position with an other man, in my bed room.
i have two choices ,
(1) sneak out secretly and call three more guys, and make them witness the act (which will be something very shamefull for me to do)
If not,
(2) then i can't even talk about it, because 24-4 will be waiting for me with 80 lashes.
The all mighty in his infinite mercy allows a special arrangement in this scenario , which is much more likely than a general 24-2, 24-4 situation.
siki
You can start with re-reading/understanding the above post , posted by me yesterday.
Have a good day.
siki
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samia! salam
I was about to post this point , when brother hassan took the lead, this is very clear proof that nissa o kum, or nissa i hinna does not limit the expression to azwaj only.
Nissa ol momineen means , all the women that a momin is responsible for including sisters ,daughters , mothers, azwajs ,and any body else who is under his guardian ship.
33-59 mentions azwajs and daughters for the prophet, cause Mohammad(pbuh) did not have any sister and his mother was not alive then.
siki
How do you know that the prophet had no sisters and his mother was not alive? Who is being addressed in this verse
1723 " And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him and that you be dutiful to the parents. if one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect , nor shout at them but address them in terms of honour"?
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Dear brother, I don't know where you have been while this particular aya has been discussed for hundreds of times. Where have you been all that time? What are you talking about? Where on earth in this aya, in Arabic, are kinsmen made into judges and executioners of punishments on women. Indeed, I have the impression (surely wrong) that you even relish it. To start with, what you quote, refers to just one instance of something that is called nushuz and not fahisha or zina, and even then, there are plenty of understandings of it around that are not your understanding. You pick the one that suits you. Good for you. Congratulations. As for me, I find that condescending and lecturing attitudes do not add an iota to any argument, and I expect any statement to git the facts and not somebody's delusions. In fact it reminds me of the suave way the catholic priests adress objections from their aura of infallibility. More and more I have the impression that traditional Muslims, hadithists or not, have switched their past with that of a decadent catholic church on its way out. To the point that the church in fact, as you may know, has its own courts and judges. Conceded though, always much better than a husband, father, brother or whatever turned into a judge and executioner.
Yes, dear brother, let's get out of this fools paradise where men are next to God and women querulous tenant-cum-servants and start learning from reality and not from re-heated mental brews.
Salaam
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Dear brother, I don't know where you have been while this particular aya has been discussed for hundreds of times. Where have you been all that time? What are you talking about? Where on earth in this aya, in Arabic, are kinsmen made into judges and executioners of punishments on women. Indeed, I have the impression (surely wrong) that you even relish it. To start with, what you quote, refers to just one instance of something that is called nushuz and not fahisha or zina, and even then, there are plenty of understandings of it around that are not your understanding. You pick the one that suits you. Good for you. Congratulations. As for me, I find that condescending and lecturing attitudes do not add an iota to any argument, and I expect any statement to git the facts and not somebody's delusions. In fact it reminds me of the suave way the catholic priests adress objections from their aura of infallibility. More and more I have the impression that traditional Muslims, hadithists or not, have switched their past with that of a decadent catholic church on its way out. To the point that the church in fact, as you may know, has its own courts and judges. Conceded though, always much better than a husband, father, brother or whatever turned into a judge and executioner.
Yes, dear brother, let's get out of this fools paradise where men are next to God and women querulous tenant-cum-servants and start learning from reality and not from re-heated mental brews.
Salaam
Salam
sister ! you asked me to show you the territory, and i showed you as to how does God allmighty define the roles of his creation, and i highlighted in bold specially the first two/relevent sentences only. Meanings of the rest of the verse is out of the scope of this topic and i decline to comment any further with you.
Just to add , i have been here all along debating this topic in detail with every one , so lets just leave it out.
peace
siki
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yes that is , and that is what i am explaining, i have failed to understand what exactly is your objection?
siki
The point is you put it in a category of its own, not with zina; whereas the verse is in continuity with those of zina (242-7)
Samia , salam
If you go back few pages and read my previous posts , i have explained the difference in three scenarios , and their practical suitability.
There are distinctly three categories we are dealing with.
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Case of Zina.
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women committing Fahishas.
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case of Fahisha/intercourse witnessed solely by the spouse.
samia ! you are confusing/intermingling all three.
siki
(numbering by me)
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Salam
sister ! you asked me to show you the territory, and i showed you as to how I understand how does God allmighty define the roles of his creation, and i highlighted in bold specially the first two/relevent sentences only. Meanings of the rest of the verse is out of the scope of this topic and i decline to comment any further with you.
Just to add , i have been here all along debating this topic in detail with every one , so lets just leave it out.
peace
siki
Please allow the slight correction!!
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How do you know that the prophet had no sisters and his mother was not alive? Who is being addressed in this verse
1723 " And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him and that you be dutiful to the parents. if one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect , nor shout at them but address them in terms of honour"?
33-59 O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers(nissa ol momineen) that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
;D This verse itself tells me that he(Mohammad pbuh) did not have sisters, and his mother was not alive, then, Had he had sisters or his mother was alive , All mighty would have used the expression Nissa o kum , or would have used mother and sisters also along with daughters.
Moreover 17-23 is a general command for all the believers.
siki
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33-59 O Prophet! say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers(nissa ol momineen) that they let down upon them their over-garments; this will be more proper, that they may be known, and thus they will not be given trouble; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
;D This verse itself tells me that he(Mohammad pbuh) did not have sisters, and his mother was not alive, then, Had he had sisters or his mother was alive , All mighty would have used the expression Nissa o kum , or would have used mother and sisters also along with daughters.
Moreover 17-23 is a general command for all the believers.
siki
The bold part is not an address to the plural, but to a masculine singular. Do you know of any verse in the quraan where a general command to the believers is in the singular?
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The bold part is not an address to the plural, but o a masculine singular. Do you know of any verse in the quraan where a general command to the believers is in the singular?
you sort out singular/plural and masculine/feminen, I am signing off,
Good bye, I guess i have better things to do than convincing you folks. ignore
siki
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I have reached a conclusion that "You women, would never accept a gender biased commandment of Quran"
Just how many would you/can you refute?
Why would anyone accept bias? How would God be biased?
It's not about women and men, it's about unerstanding the spirit of the message.
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Peace all,
Oh boy... This has gone from bad to worse... I have read everybody's post which have some valid as well as not-so-valid points but I suppose the main thing is that there is no consensus of opinion about the meaning of the following terms
(1) Zina
(2) Fahisha
(3) Al-fahisha
(4) NushuuzI think that it might be fair to say that it would probably be inappropriate to attribute a single meaning to each of the above word and apply that throughout the Book. I really feel that the context is important to get to the understanding of the Lord's orders. In this forum, most of the people are very proficient in Arabic and it is definitely helpful to be as such. But the thing is that although two of the following fact are established by the Book
(1) The Book is in Arabic
(2) The Book is easy to understanddoesn't necessarily imply that the Book is easy to understand because it is in Arabic. It is the message that is easy to understand. I solemnly believe that if we don't understand the message now, we will in time if we truly want to understand. God is the best teacher. Out of my personal experience, whenever I have related to any of the verses of the Book, I have actually experienced them and seen them in this world. So if we sort of look at the ground realities, maybe we will be able to relate to the verses.
Peace