Menstruating women praying and fasting
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As Salaamu Alaika again brother siki,
Brother IQO salam
Before i proceed further, let my try and sort out your confusion here.
Ghusul of face is , proper washing of the face with running water, and so of the arms, but when messah is used, that means there is no need to carry out a proper washing, but wiping those parts clean (may be with wet hands) would be suficent.
When i tell you to ghusal your face , that would mean to wash your face
But when i tell you to take a Ghusal , without any parts being mentioned , that would mean , that you wash your complete body , just as been told in some ayah like being washed in the rain from head to toe.
siki
That would be what YOU AND THOSE WHO BELIEVE like you would mean. But as you have fortunately pointed out, the ayat about being washed with rain from head to toe (811) clearly uses "tahara" to denote this "washing of the whole body"; not "ghusl". This concept of what is "ghusl" (wash your whole body) to you is not from Al Quran, but from sunnism/shiaism.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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salaams again brother,
To continue
I dont agree with your conclusion that if we find no water that we should then pray without doing anything. I think the principle laid down is that if we can't take a full bath, then to use clean earth to clean our face and arms; would also suffice if we have no water to make "ghusl". To go to the extreme and just say that since you have no water you don't have to wash or do anything before prayer is to assume a lot when you already have a principle being given in Al Quran for a situation where no water is availabe. Considering also that using clean earth to rub the face and arms with is more similar to the "ghusl" preparation, it would be more logical to use this method for "ghusl" also if there is no water available at all, IMHO.
So I definitely can not agree with your premise here that I have highlighted in red siki.
brother !Your assetion here is wrong, i will try and explain it to you,
The dry ablution is conditioned to 4 conditions only, because had your statement been true, The ayah would have said, that "IN case you don't find water then do the dry ablution" (procedure) But here God goes in lot of details and precisely mentions what 4 conditions, which at least require some kind of dry soil ritual purification, if one does not find water to carry out the prescribed procedure of cleansing before salat.
If we understand this, then we can indirectly conclude that In no water scenario but , if we are not through the mentioned 4 conditions, what to do. because the God does not prohibit salat in this situation , but prohibits in, junaba and intoxicated state only,( 4-43)
siki
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As Salaamu Alaika siki,
I simply disagree with your post below for the reasons that I have already mentioned. I don't find what you are saying as evidence to support your reason/logic. But alhamdulilaah..to each their own. From Allah we all come from, and to Him is the return.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
brother !Your assetion here is wrong, i will try and explain it to you,
The dry ablution is conditioned to 4 conditions only, because had your statement been true, The ayah would have said, that "IN case you don't find water then do the dry ablution" (procedure) But here God goes in lot of details and precisely mentions what 4 conditions, which at least require some kind of dry soil ritual purification, if one does not find water to carry out the prescribed procedure of cleansing before salat.
If we understand this, then we can indirectly conclude that In no water scenario but , if we are not through the mentioned 4 conditions, what to do. because the God does not prohibit salat in this situation , but prohibits only in, junaba and intoxicated state only,( 4-43)
siki
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Brother IQO salam
Leaving janaba, (which require Taharoo before salat) pending for some time , now lets move to 4-43.
4-43 O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath -- unless (you are) travelling on the road -- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving
4-43 comes up with one more condition which makes salat prohibited till a certain condition is full filled. which is intoxication, till one is back in his senses to understand what he is saying/doing.
but , it repeats the janaba state prohibition with two changes,
change (1) wa la junaban -----hatta tagh tasilloo.
The word taharoo in 5-6 for junaba, is being replaced here with Thagtasilloo. That means that tahara in 5-6 , which was not being explained as to how ? is being explained and clarified here with the word Ghusal . And this Ghusal is not being restricted to any specific parts of the body , which would mean it to be the full body wash.
Change(2). wa la juna baan illa abri sabelin hatta taghtasillo.
The guy who is abri sabelin (traveller) is being exempted from this restriction , because it becomes cumbersome for the traveller to find water and a place to take full bath.
Rest of the ayah is word by word the same for 4 conditions which necessitate, at least some kind of cleansing (dry ablution) , if water is not available.
I sincerely hope that this would make the things clear to you.
siki
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As Salaamu Alaika siki,
Either you are ignoring or don't understand why I have said that 56 is an expounding on 443, and not the other way around. Why do you think that 443 is revealed AFTER 56? All indications are that it was revealed before.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Brother IQO salam
Leaving janaba, (which require Taharoo before salat) pending for some time , now lets move to 4-43.
4-43 O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath -- unless (you are) travelling on the road -- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving
4-43 comes up with one more condition which makes salat prohibited till a certain condition is full filled. which is intoxication, till one is back in his senses to understand what he is saying/doing.
but , it repeats the janaba state prohibition with two changes,
change (1) wa la junaban -----hatta tagh tasilloo.
The word taharoo in 5-6 for junaba, is being replaced here with Thagtasilloo. That means that tahara in 5-6 , which was not being explained as to how ? is being explained and clarified here with the word Ghusal . And this Ghusal is not being restricted to any specific parts of the body , which would mean it to be the full body wash.
Change(2). wa la juna baan illa abri sabelin hatta taghtasillo.
The guy who is abri sabelin (traveller) is being exempted from this restriction , because it becomes cumbersome for the traveller to find water and a place to take full bath.
Rest of the ayah is word by word the same for 4 conditions which necessitate, at least some kind of cleansing (dry ablution) , if water is not available.
I sincerely hope that this would make the things clear to you.
siki
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Brother IQO
salam. in your couple of previous posts, you have mentioned that i am under influence of Sunnis for such and such thinking (wadu etc). But brother ,
Sunnis understand the conditions for dry ablution, exactly the same, what you understand (wrongly) , where as i being a Sunni , have used my understanding from the Quran and broken free ?
Sunnis understanding regarding salat of menstruating women is exactly what you have, and i had , but i have broken free from that after deriving the new understanding from the Quran?
siki
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As Salaamu Alaika siki,
Either you are ignoring or don't understand why I have said that 56 is an expounding on 443, and not the other way around. Why do you think that 443 is revealed AFTER 56? All indications are that it was revealed before.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Brother salam,
i have already posted my reasons for such a thinking, could you please post your arguments/reasons for such a thinking?
Either way it does not matter which was revealed first or last , what matters is, what info we can deduce out of these to establish the correct procedures.
siki
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As Salaamu Alaika siki,
Okay, lets just agree to disagree. I don't agree with most of your assessments about these two ayat and you likewise about mine. I see 56 as further expounding and clarifying 443 which would have been revealed before 56. You must see it the other way around if you think 443 is further clarifying 56. Nevertheless, I think your idea of what is "ghusl", is clearly from sunni/shia traditions which are common use now, and not based from how Al Quran describes it. Of course you still use terms like "wadu", which are not Quranic to describe washing preparation before As Salaat. So I don't think we will agree with each other on anything else regarding this subject matter and the dialogue has become fruitless. See you on another topic, Allah willing.
My final understanding remains that "ghusl" is washing the face, arms, head and feet to the ankles, the normal preparation before As Salaat. "Tahara" is taking a full bath for the conditions indicating it's necessity. "Tayammun" is rubbing the face and arms with clean earth when one can find no water.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Brother salam,
i have already posted my reasons for such a thinking, could you please post your arguments/reasons for such a thinking?
Either way it does not matter which was revealed first or last , what matters is, what info we can deduce out of these to establish the correct procedures.
siki
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Finally,
These two ayas very precisely spell out the two conditions in which salat is prohibited, and also elaborate the 4 situations which do require some kind of ritual cleansing if water is not available for cleansing, and even a very well thought out exception to this rule (abri sablen ) has also been listed.
It does not prohibit the menstruating women from salat . period.
They can pray, and i don't think there is any confusion on that.
If you can find any further ayah from quran connecting women, or perionds, or certain situations, prohibiting/restricting salat, i would be more than willing to reconsider my thinking.
waslam
siki
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As Salaamu Alaika siki,
Okay, lets just agree to disagree. I don't agree with most of your assessments about these two ayat and you likewise about mine. I see 56 as further expounding and clarifying 443 which would have been revealed before 56. You must see it the other way around if you think 443 is further clarifying 56. Nevertheless, I think your idea of what is "ghusl", is clearly from sunni/shia traditions which are common use now, and not based from how Al Quran describes it. Of course you still use terms like "wadu", which are not Quranic to describe washing preparation before As Salaat. So I don't think we will agree with each other on anything else regarding this subject matter and the dialogue has become fruitless. See you on another topic, Allah willing.
My final understanding remains that "ghusl" is washing the face, arms, head and feet to the ankles, the normal preparation before As Salaat. "Tahara" is taking a full bath for the conditions indicating it's necessity. "Tayammun" is rubbing the face and arms with clean earth when one can find no water.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Brother ! i use the word wadu denoting the steps prescribed in quran before salat , for my own ease because the Quran does not give it any name, However if you are sensitive, i would not use it. From today i shall call them , with,
"The 4 steps prescribed in 5-6 for cleansing before every salat" ;D
How can you Ghusal your head and feet to the ankles? when Quran in 5-6 clearly states to "wamassahoo"?
How can you then assign a name to it as Ghusal? when half of the steps are termed as wamassahoo?
Going by your logic , it stands an equal chance to be called Massah?
siki
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Siki brother...as I said already, peace to you...to you your way and to me mine. I am not going to continue to argue with you about these issues when you clearly don't have enough command or understanding of the arabic used in these ayaat to discuss the concepts of "ghusl" and "tahara"; let alone whether or not performing As salaat is recommended or not for women. So after this post, go ahead, have the last word. As I will not respond to any other posts from you on this one issue alone. Sorry you couldn't convince me of your thinking though. My apologies.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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If you think As Salaat is only mental meditation or something of this sort limited to mental thoughts only and not a physical ritual designed to preserve the guidance, then you should just ignore everything I am saying in this thread as none of it will make any sense to you dear sister.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Peace,
Ok, you are right! I just see salat as a mental meditation not physical act. So I'm sorry that I interrupted )
Maria
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As Salaamu Alaika SwedenMajidah sister,
Peace,
Ok, you are right! I just see salat as a mental meditation not physical act. So I'm sorry that I interrupted
Maria
Alhamdulilaah, your apology is accepted, but not necessary. I didn't mean to sound too harsh when I made that statement, I was only trying to point out that my opinions may not make much sense to you if you don't believe in a physical Salaat. You are always welcome to comment regardless though, interruptions are sometimes necessary on this forum. !
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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If you think As Salaat is only mental meditation or something of this sort limited to mental thoughts only ........
Is "mental meditation or something of this sort" not a physical activity? Perhaps maximum sugar is consumed/burnt during thinking process!!
If Salat is meditation then what is the point; women can conveniently meditate while in periods.
And then we could translate that while you are drunk/in a disturbed state of mind do not go nearby "meditation" otherwise you will start uttering statements while you do not know what you are saying. Perhaps during meditation one keeps silent.
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As Salaamu Alaika Mazhar,
Dear siki and imamquranonly,
May I request both of you to kindly summarize arguments like 1,2,3 after quoting the issue in hand. But please it should be synopsis of all what has been debated. We will benefit without doing much at our own. Thanks.
I have summed up all that I have on the subject already many times in my opinion in this thread dear brother. I am not trying to prove my opinion above or over siki's opinion. I would only advise those who are interested in the topic to read the entire thread and then choose for themselves either view or whatever view they come to outside of either view. In the end, they will be asked by Allah what they choose, not what siki or I choose.
I think what I have presented is sufficient for any that understands the type of analogies and insight that I used, to come to the same conclusions that I have. If they don't, alhamdulilaah. I don't have anything to prove. Each has to make their own decisions. I only present what I have studied and come to a conclusion on. It is up to each individual to make their own conclusions.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Peace.
Ponder on this thought...
Men are told not to have intercourse with the wife untill she is purified or cleansed, right?
God tells us to purify or cleanse when we make salat, or after discharge from the private area...(after sexual relations there is discharge)
Then in other verses it states God loves the cleansed or purified.
Could this not be hinting to it is better to not to so...
or does it imply that if a woman is menstrating she should take a bath and make wudu then pray?Your thought are welcomed.
YTV
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Peace.
Ponder on this thought...
Men are told not to have intercourse with the wife untill she is purified or cleansed, right?
God tells us to purify or cleanse when we make salat, or after discharge from the private area...(after sexual relations there is discharge)
Then in other verses it states God loves the cleansed or purified.
Could this not be hinting to it is better to not to so...
or does it imply that if a woman is menstrating she should take a bath and make wudu then pray?
Your thought are welcomed.
YTVSalam.
Respectfully.Woman from Los Angeles, wakes up, looks at the time and sees that it is February, 4th 2016 - time 0911.
She sees that she is menstruating.
She takes a bath, makes .... performs vudu and prays.Simple, yes?
Peace.
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Peace.
Ponder on this thought...
Men are told not to have intercourse with the wife untill she is purified or cleansed, right?
God tells us to purify or cleanse when we make salat, or after discharge from the private area...(after sexual relations there is discharge)
Then in other verses it states God loves the cleansed or purified.
Could this not be hinting to it is better to not to so...
or does it imply that if a woman is menstrating she should take a bath and make wudu then pray?Your thought are welcomed.
YTV
Ponder on this thought too
Men are told not to have intercourse with the wife untill she is purified or cleansed
Does that mean that the couple cannot have sexual relationships without being "purified or cleansed"?
Salaam
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Ponder on this thought too
Men are told not to have intercourse with the wife untill she is purified or cleansed
Does that mean that the couple cannot have sexual relationships without being "purified or cleansed"?
Salaam
Yes it does if you put it in the context that Allah gave in Al Quran...the purification/cleansing is from al maHeed, not in general.