Menstruating women praying and fasting
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Brother IQO salam
Leaving janaba, (which require Taharoo before salat) pending for some time , now lets move to 4-43.
4-43 O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath -- unless (you are) travelling on the road -- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving
4-43 comes up with one more condition which makes salat prohibited till a certain condition is full filled. which is intoxication, till one is back in his senses to understand what he is saying/doing.
but , it repeats the janaba state prohibition with two changes,
change (1) wa la junaban -----hatta tagh tasilloo.
The word taharoo in 5-6 for junaba, is being replaced here with Thagtasilloo. That means that tahara in 5-6 , which was not being explained as to how ? is being explained and clarified here with the word Ghusal . And this Ghusal is not being restricted to any specific parts of the body , which would mean it to be the full body wash.
Change(2). wa la juna baan illa abri sabelin hatta taghtasillo.
The guy who is abri sabelin (traveller) is being exempted from this restriction , because it becomes cumbersome for the traveller to find water and a place to take full bath.
Rest of the ayah is word by word the same for 4 conditions which necessitate, at least some kind of cleansing (dry ablution) , if water is not available.
I sincerely hope that this would make the things clear to you.
siki
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As Salaamu Alaika siki,
Either you are ignoring or don't understand why I have said that 56 is an expounding on 443, and not the other way around. Why do you think that 443 is revealed AFTER 56? All indications are that it was revealed before.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Brother IQO salam
Leaving janaba, (which require Taharoo before salat) pending for some time , now lets move to 4-43.
4-43 O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath -- unless (you are) travelling on the road -- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving
4-43 comes up with one more condition which makes salat prohibited till a certain condition is full filled. which is intoxication, till one is back in his senses to understand what he is saying/doing.
but , it repeats the janaba state prohibition with two changes,
change (1) wa la junaban -----hatta tagh tasilloo.
The word taharoo in 5-6 for junaba, is being replaced here with Thagtasilloo. That means that tahara in 5-6 , which was not being explained as to how ? is being explained and clarified here with the word Ghusal . And this Ghusal is not being restricted to any specific parts of the body , which would mean it to be the full body wash.
Change(2). wa la juna baan illa abri sabelin hatta taghtasillo.
The guy who is abri sabelin (traveller) is being exempted from this restriction , because it becomes cumbersome for the traveller to find water and a place to take full bath.
Rest of the ayah is word by word the same for 4 conditions which necessitate, at least some kind of cleansing (dry ablution) , if water is not available.
I sincerely hope that this would make the things clear to you.
siki
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Brother IQO
salam. in your couple of previous posts, you have mentioned that i am under influence of Sunnis for such and such thinking (wadu etc). But brother ,
Sunnis understand the conditions for dry ablution, exactly the same, what you understand (wrongly) , where as i being a Sunni , have used my understanding from the Quran and broken free ?
Sunnis understanding regarding salat of menstruating women is exactly what you have, and i had , but i have broken free from that after deriving the new understanding from the Quran?
siki
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As Salaamu Alaika siki,
Either you are ignoring or don't understand why I have said that 56 is an expounding on 443, and not the other way around. Why do you think that 443 is revealed AFTER 56? All indications are that it was revealed before.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Brother salam,
i have already posted my reasons for such a thinking, could you please post your arguments/reasons for such a thinking?
Either way it does not matter which was revealed first or last , what matters is, what info we can deduce out of these to establish the correct procedures.
siki
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As Salaamu Alaika siki,
Okay, lets just agree to disagree. I don't agree with most of your assessments about these two ayat and you likewise about mine. I see 56 as further expounding and clarifying 443 which would have been revealed before 56. You must see it the other way around if you think 443 is further clarifying 56. Nevertheless, I think your idea of what is "ghusl", is clearly from sunni/shia traditions which are common use now, and not based from how Al Quran describes it. Of course you still use terms like "wadu", which are not Quranic to describe washing preparation before As Salaat. So I don't think we will agree with each other on anything else regarding this subject matter and the dialogue has become fruitless. See you on another topic, Allah willing.
My final understanding remains that "ghusl" is washing the face, arms, head and feet to the ankles, the normal preparation before As Salaat. "Tahara" is taking a full bath for the conditions indicating it's necessity. "Tayammun" is rubbing the face and arms with clean earth when one can find no water.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Brother salam,
i have already posted my reasons for such a thinking, could you please post your arguments/reasons for such a thinking?
Either way it does not matter which was revealed first or last , what matters is, what info we can deduce out of these to establish the correct procedures.
siki
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Finally,
These two ayas very precisely spell out the two conditions in which salat is prohibited, and also elaborate the 4 situations which do require some kind of ritual cleansing if water is not available for cleansing, and even a very well thought out exception to this rule (abri sablen ) has also been listed.
It does not prohibit the menstruating women from salat . period.
They can pray, and i don't think there is any confusion on that.
If you can find any further ayah from quran connecting women, or perionds, or certain situations, prohibiting/restricting salat, i would be more than willing to reconsider my thinking.
waslam
siki
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As Salaamu Alaika siki,
Okay, lets just agree to disagree. I don't agree with most of your assessments about these two ayat and you likewise about mine. I see 56 as further expounding and clarifying 443 which would have been revealed before 56. You must see it the other way around if you think 443 is further clarifying 56. Nevertheless, I think your idea of what is "ghusl", is clearly from sunni/shia traditions which are common use now, and not based from how Al Quran describes it. Of course you still use terms like "wadu", which are not Quranic to describe washing preparation before As Salaat. So I don't think we will agree with each other on anything else regarding this subject matter and the dialogue has become fruitless. See you on another topic, Allah willing.
My final understanding remains that "ghusl" is washing the face, arms, head and feet to the ankles, the normal preparation before As Salaat. "Tahara" is taking a full bath for the conditions indicating it's necessity. "Tayammun" is rubbing the face and arms with clean earth when one can find no water.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Brother ! i use the word wadu denoting the steps prescribed in quran before salat , for my own ease because the Quran does not give it any name, However if you are sensitive, i would not use it. From today i shall call them , with,
"The 4 steps prescribed in 5-6 for cleansing before every salat" ;D
How can you Ghusal your head and feet to the ankles? when Quran in 5-6 clearly states to "wamassahoo"?
How can you then assign a name to it as Ghusal? when half of the steps are termed as wamassahoo?
Going by your logic , it stands an equal chance to be called Massah?
siki
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Siki brother...as I said already, peace to you...to you your way and to me mine. I am not going to continue to argue with you about these issues when you clearly don't have enough command or understanding of the arabic used in these ayaat to discuss the concepts of "ghusl" and "tahara"; let alone whether or not performing As salaat is recommended or not for women. So after this post, go ahead, have the last word. As I will not respond to any other posts from you on this one issue alone. Sorry you couldn't convince me of your thinking though. My apologies.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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If you think As Salaat is only mental meditation or something of this sort limited to mental thoughts only and not a physical ritual designed to preserve the guidance, then you should just ignore everything I am saying in this thread as none of it will make any sense to you dear sister.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Peace,
Ok, you are right! I just see salat as a mental meditation not physical act. So I'm sorry that I interrupted )
Maria
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As Salaamu Alaika SwedenMajidah sister,
Peace,
Ok, you are right! I just see salat as a mental meditation not physical act. So I'm sorry that I interrupted
Maria
Alhamdulilaah, your apology is accepted, but not necessary. I didn't mean to sound too harsh when I made that statement, I was only trying to point out that my opinions may not make much sense to you if you don't believe in a physical Salaat. You are always welcome to comment regardless though, interruptions are sometimes necessary on this forum. !
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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If you think As Salaat is only mental meditation or something of this sort limited to mental thoughts only ........
Is "mental meditation or something of this sort" not a physical activity? Perhaps maximum sugar is consumed/burnt during thinking process!!
If Salat is meditation then what is the point; women can conveniently meditate while in periods.
And then we could translate that while you are drunk/in a disturbed state of mind do not go nearby "meditation" otherwise you will start uttering statements while you do not know what you are saying. Perhaps during meditation one keeps silent.
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As Salaamu Alaika Mazhar,
Dear siki and imamquranonly,
May I request both of you to kindly summarize arguments like 1,2,3 after quoting the issue in hand. But please it should be synopsis of all what has been debated. We will benefit without doing much at our own. Thanks.
I have summed up all that I have on the subject already many times in my opinion in this thread dear brother. I am not trying to prove my opinion above or over siki's opinion. I would only advise those who are interested in the topic to read the entire thread and then choose for themselves either view or whatever view they come to outside of either view. In the end, they will be asked by Allah what they choose, not what siki or I choose.
I think what I have presented is sufficient for any that understands the type of analogies and insight that I used, to come to the same conclusions that I have. If they don't, alhamdulilaah. I don't have anything to prove. Each has to make their own decisions. I only present what I have studied and come to a conclusion on. It is up to each individual to make their own conclusions.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Peace.
Ponder on this thought...
Men are told not to have intercourse with the wife untill she is purified or cleansed, right?
God tells us to purify or cleanse when we make salat, or after discharge from the private area...(after sexual relations there is discharge)
Then in other verses it states God loves the cleansed or purified.
Could this not be hinting to it is better to not to so...
or does it imply that if a woman is menstrating she should take a bath and make wudu then pray?Your thought are welcomed.
YTV
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Peace.
Ponder on this thought...
Men are told not to have intercourse with the wife untill she is purified or cleansed, right?
God tells us to purify or cleanse when we make salat, or after discharge from the private area...(after sexual relations there is discharge)
Then in other verses it states God loves the cleansed or purified.
Could this not be hinting to it is better to not to so...
or does it imply that if a woman is menstrating she should take a bath and make wudu then pray?
Your thought are welcomed.
YTVSalam.
Respectfully.Woman from Los Angeles, wakes up, looks at the time and sees that it is February, 4th 2016 - time 0911.
She sees that she is menstruating.
She takes a bath, makes .... performs vudu and prays.Simple, yes?
Peace.
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Peace.
Ponder on this thought...
Men are told not to have intercourse with the wife untill she is purified or cleansed, right?
God tells us to purify or cleanse when we make salat, or after discharge from the private area...(after sexual relations there is discharge)
Then in other verses it states God loves the cleansed or purified.
Could this not be hinting to it is better to not to so...
or does it imply that if a woman is menstrating she should take a bath and make wudu then pray?Your thought are welcomed.
YTV
Ponder on this thought too
Men are told not to have intercourse with the wife untill she is purified or cleansed
Does that mean that the couple cannot have sexual relationships without being "purified or cleansed"?
Salaam
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Ponder on this thought too
Men are told not to have intercourse with the wife untill she is purified or cleansed
Does that mean that the couple cannot have sexual relationships without being "purified or cleansed"?
Salaam
Yes it does if you put it in the context that Allah gave in Al Quran...the purification/cleansing is from al maHeed, not in general.
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Peace all,
I am with siki, huruf and peace4life on this one, i.e. being in a state of menstruation does not prohibit women from performing salaat. The view of those opposing this is based on the following premise
Allah says/indicates/implies "do not approach salaat until one is tahoor", or "do not approach salaat when one is in ANY state requiring tahara".
Can they please quote the sign which says/implies that, otherwise they are attributing to The God which He never said/implied.
If it says "when you are junub then tahiroo before salaat" DOES NOT MEAN/IMPLY "do not approach salaat until you tahiroo". That is a logical fallacy. All it means is not to perform salaat in one particular state requiring tahara, i.e. junub, and not ALL states requiring tahara.
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Peace Tanveer,
You are misunderstanding and therefore misquoting the logic here.
It is not "do not approach salaat until one is in a state requiring tahara"; the point is that Allah says do not approach salaat in a "condition" that necessitates "tahara" until after you have peformed "tahara" or "tayyamun" if you find no water.
So the simple logic behind it is that the state of "al maHeed" is a condition that necessitates "tahara" before a man and woman can have sex. It is given for the purpose of not having sex, but the condition clearly necessitates "tahara". By the condition necessitating "tahara", it therefore connects it to "as salaat". Regarding "as salaat", a condition that necessitates "tahara" must be completed so that the "tahara" can be performed. For example, one can not have sex, make "tahara", have sex again and then perform "as salaat". One must make "tahara" when sex is completely finished. Likewise, during "al maHeed", "tahara" can not be performed until it is completed. So the one who accepts that a condition necessitating "tahara" negates making "as salaat" until that condition is finished and the person makes "tahara" either with water or clean earth if one can find no water; this person accepts this to mean that a woman is precluded from performing "as salaat" until "al maheed" is completed. This is a mercy from Allah to women because "al maheed" can be a hurt for them, although maybe not to all; so thus a lifting of the command is given for them. Similarily in a reverse and slight way, a restriction of the command to not eat pork is lifted if one is in a dire condition that would necessitate one eating it, i.e. weak, sick, starving with nothing else to eat.
You don't have to accept or agree to it, but the logic is sound.
As Salaamu Alaikum,
Peace all,
I am with siki and huruf and peace4life on this one, i.e. being in a state of menstruation does not prohibit women from performing salaat. The view of those opposing this is based on the following premise
Allah says/indicates/implies "do not approach salaat until one is tahoor", or "do not approach salaat until one is in a state requiring tahara".
Can they please quote the sign which says/implies that, otherwise they are attributing to The God which He never said/implied.
If it says "when you are junub then tahiroo before salaat" DOES NOT MEAN/IMPLY "do not approach salaat until you tahiroo". That is a logical fallacy.