ATTN Arnold - Why will Trinitarians, idol worshippers, etc. not go to Heaven?
-
Salaams Arnold
Salaam,
For 1 to 3, please read
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,420,0,0,1,0&PHPSESSID=5ac0596be7a6eb6c4d15f501ac7389e9
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,419,0,0,1,0&PHPSESSID=5ac0596be7a6eb6c4d15f501ac7389e9
For 4, yes and just as we fit in the next phase of the Universe.
Thank you for the response. The first link, I read it a while ago. I did however do a scan of it and did a search for animals and there was only one instant of the word. I believe that as well. My question for you was, what about in Akhirah? Do they just go in their same state of mind? Is that the state of mind that we enter, the ones that the animals are born with in this life?
Regarding aliens, my question is more of, would their judgement be like those of the animals, plants, etc. or more of the human judgement, where we don't follow our instincts? Its easy to state earthly matters, but I think its harder if we introduce aliens into the mix. For example, if the alien couldnt learn our language, would that make them like animals? If they did could speak our language, would that mean that they would be like humans? Sorry if it sounds confusing. I know we can't say until we meet (if ever) any, but I just would like your thoughts.
Thanks.
Peace
-
Salaam Amuslim,
First of all is your approach completely wrong, you classify aliens as animals. There are 2 distinct levels of existence, those that follow instinct and those that have free will and can follow Divine instinct given through Wahi/Revelation.
If an alien race is developed enough and has left their dominant instinct behind you can be assured Allah will guide them just as He guided us with their own revelation.
Since when are we some superspecies and all other potential intelligent aliens animals just because they do not speak our language? Please rethink your reasoning very carefully.
As for animals, I believe the whole Universe wil be created again as is stated in the Quran many times, but it will be on a higher level of development and potentials. Thus animals will be part of it of course.
Please lose the mythical heaven and the idea of it just being a state of mind, it is a state of existence. You are not in a dream or entering a dream.
You are in reality and will remain in reality. This Universe is step1, akhira is step 2, 3,4,5 etc. It is just the Universe in constant development, when you follow God's Laws, you remain part of that Universal development, when you differ from the Laws, you are not part anymore of the Universal Evolution.
-
Peace Arnold,
Salaam Amuslim,
First of all is your approach completely wrong, you classify aliens as animals. There are 2 distinct levels of existence, those that follow instinct and those that have free will and can follow Divine instinct given through Wahi/Revelation.
If an alien race is developed enough and has left their dominant instinct behind you can be assured Allah will guide them just as He guided us with their own revelation.
Since when are we some superspecies and all other potential intelligent aliens animals just because they do not speak our language? Please rethink your reasoning very carefully.
As for animals, I believe the whole Universe wil be created again as is stated in the Quran many times, but it will be on a higher level of development and potentials. Thus animals will be part of it of course.
Please lose the mythical heaven and the idea of it just being a state of mind, it is a state of existence. You are not in a dream or entering a dream.
You are in reality and will remain in reality. This Universe is step1, akhira is step 2, 3,4,5 etc. It is just the Universe in constant development, when you follow God's Laws, you remain part of that Universal development, when you differ from the Laws, you are not part anymore of the Universal Evolution.
I didnt classify Aliens as animals. My question was, how would we classify? How would we make the difference between how we are, with the instinct and dont necessarily follow it, and animals who have no choice but to follow it. What exactly is following the instinct and not? Pitbulls are notoriously labled as attacking other dogs. On the outside, we would think they are not following the instinct. Where does their psychological aspect and instinct aspect come into play? How does that make a difference to us? My whole point was, isn't it confusing?
So in the next life, since it is a new universe, it means, same as this life, just new skins? Whats to stop us from going from Janaat down to Jahanam, yet they can progress from jahanam to Janaat? Is there another level of Janaat after Janaat? You state evolution, so when does it exactly stop?
Offtopic, but is there any notion that we will be married? Will we have the same partners in this life in the next? Ive heard different opinions on this. What's yours?
Peace
-
Peace Arnold,
I didnt classify Aliens as animals. My question was, how would we classify? How would we make the difference between how we are, with the instinct and dont necessarily follow it, and animals who have no choice but to follow it. What exactly is following the instinct and not? Pitbulls are notoriously labled as attacking other dogs. On the outside, we would think they are not following the instinct. Where does their psychological aspect and instinct aspect come into play? How does that make a difference to us? My whole point was, isn't it confusing?
So in the next life, since it is a new universe, it means, same as this life, just new skins? Whats to stop us from going from Janaat down to Jahanam, yet they can progress from jahanam to Janaat? Is there another level of Janaat after Janaat? You state evolution, so when does it exactly stop?
Offtopic, but is there any notion that we will be married? Will we have the same partners in this life in the next? Ive heard different opinions on this. What's yours?
Peace
Salaam amuslim,
Does a dog need to create a system to live or can it just make use of nature? Does it need guidance on how to work with other animals? Does it need guidance on how to handle peace and war? Economy? Does it has free will? Has killing other dogs anyhting to do with free will or with being victim of its genetic makeup which humans have created?
I believe these answers are very clear. A species that needs guidance through Wahi and a species that is directly through instinct can be recognized immediately on their possibilities and potentials. Which is a slave to nature and which can control nature.
In the same way we can judge alien races.
In the next phase, only the humans that were beneficial to mankind will be part, and they will have access to the information bank of the Universe, Umm-Al-Kitab, which is called the Quantum field by scientists. Through this, mankind will only move up in its evolution as its knowledge and experience has taught what is good and what is not. So I do not believe we will fall into Jahannam again, we have skipt the trial and error phase.
This does not count for those who were not beneficial to Mankind and are stuck in the state of Jahannam, and if they come out of this state is determined on them being fit for further stages or not.
As for being united with loved ones, the Quran is very clear
5221
And they who attained belief, and whose children followed them in belief, We shall unite them with their families. Nor shall we let any of their deeds go to waste. Every human will be held responsible for own doings.
225
Convey the happy news to those who have chosen to be graced with belief, and have done acts of service to humanity. For them will be a most pleasant reward, Paradise in both lives. (Try to understand it in your current vocabulary.) Plush Gardens with streams flowing underneath! When they are provided with the delicious fruit of their deeds, they will say, This is what we were provided before. They had tasted some of the reward in this world. For, they will be given sustenance that will recall their past. These men and women will have pure companions therein, an everlasting happy family life.
408
O Our Lord! Admit them into the Gardens of Eden that you have promised to them, and to the righteous among their ancestors, and their descendants. Surely, You, only You, are the Almighty, the Wise.
-
peace
All these negative statements use ABaDa to express a prohibition that will last forever. More accurately, as long as conditions exist. For instance, when the person prohibited from funeral prayer himself dies, the prohibition too ends naturally. A dead person cannot pray at the grave of another dead person and therefore, this prohibition does not practically last for eternity. Similarly, when the wives of the Prophet all died, the prohibition to marry them ceased to exist. Therefore, the eternity of prohibition was in fact limited by the condition or life-time of the subject. In other words, in the above examples, the word ABaDa indicates the entirety of a particular period.
i have a question.
says there 'as long as condition exists',
now if a person goes to hell, what condition will stop existing so that he will exit it?also, why are you so sure that evolution applies to the life after our death?
don't you think there are other laws there that will apply to us that we don't know/understand yet?doesn't it say in the quran that it won't matter if they believe then (after they die), that it will be too late?
and what do you think of this
280 And they said "The Fire will not touch us except for a few number of days." Say "Have you taken a pledge with God? If so, then God will not break His pledge. Or do you say about God what you do not know?"
281 Indeed, whoever gains a sin, and is surrounded by his mistakes; those are the people of the Fire, in it they abide eternally.so are you saying they're right? that they will only be in it for a limited amount of time?
besides, do you really think it's fair that all nonbelievers, idol worshipers, murderers, rapists, thieves, liars, hypocrites, people who made corruption in the world, who were greedy, selfish, arrogant, people who mocked and insulted God... to sum up all bad people who deserve to go to hell in the first place,
now is it really fair for them to exit hell and go in heaven?i'm sorry if the way i asked seems a bit impolite or rude or anything, didn't mean it like that.
-
Salaam Nerspi,
This article I wrote a year ago as a sort of snapshot of my research. Today I would write it completely differently.
I believe that only those people who are fit for further development will eventually move on to other stages. If people are completely thrown out of existence, I am not totally sure yet. But I am starting to understand the conditions involved in this process, and it has nothing to do with the mythical hell or heaven, it all about Cosmic Evolution and being part of it or not.
As for 280, I have already discussed in my article, please read it again.
And why do I believe the Next Life and the whole working of the Universe is based on the Law of Evolution. First the Creation contains no contradictions and Allah's Laws do not change, throughout the whole Universe we can see the Law of Development at work, on small and large scale.
And the Quran also uses the Law of Evolution and connecting it with the Next Life
225
O Mankind! If you are in doubt that humanity will one day stand on its feet, and that you will be resurrected back to life after death, (consider the process of your own evolution.) We have created you in stages From dust, then from male and female gametes, then from a zygote, then from an embryo, shapely and first shapeless. We thus clearly explain things for you. The embryo and then the fetus stay in the womb until an appointed term according to Our Laws. Then We bring you forth as infants and carry you to maturity. While some of you die young, others live to the feeblest old age so that they know nothing after knowing much. (Resurgence of humanity can take place just as) you, O Prophet, see a dry barren land, but when We send down water on it, it vibrates with life and grows all kinds of beautiful plants.
Here the Quran directly connects the way we are created in this Life as the same mechanism on how we are created in the Next Life, this is no simple comparison.
But everybody, please let this conversation be between me and amuslim as then it is easier for me to answer the questions, I am very busy so do not have time or urge to answer questions or arguments by several people.
-
Peace,
First learnt to have patience in understanding somebody;s point of view before jumping to conclusions and secondly, please respect other people's requests
But everybody, please let this conversation be between me and amuslim as then it is easier for me to answer the questions, I am very busy so do not have time or urge to answer questions or arguments by several people.
-
Peace Arnold,
Sorry for the late reply, but I read it earlier. Youve answered my questions, thanks for your insights into those matters, its much appreciated.
Peace
They won't? Our judgement can be futile.
Joe
Disbelivers don't get into jannat, am I right? Much less, idol worshippers who associate partners with God? At least thats what I am reading in the Quran.
Peace
-
Peace Brother Arnold
What happens to us when we die, that is the very next second.What happens to the believers ? is the new universe already created for them that they go directly there or would it be created later.Also the non believers, where do they go ??????
Salaam
-
Peace Brother Arnold
What happens to us when we die, that is the very next second.What happens to the believers ? is the new universe already created for them that they go directly there or would it be created later.Also the non believers, where do they go ??????
Salaam
All of them will stay in " Alam barzakh ' till the last day.
peace -
Peace
Disbelivers don't get into jannat, am I right? Much less, idol worshippers who associate partners with God? At least thats what I am reading in the Quran.
Those terms are subjective are they not?
We were all idol worshippers and disbelievers at some point or another, no? -
Peace DArgento
Peace
Those terms are subjective are they not?
We were all idol worshippers and disbelievers at some point or another, no?Thats past tense. What does the Quran say about people that worship things beside God? These people are going against the natural order that Allah has given us in the very beginning.
And Im not trying to be judgemental, Im speaking what it says in Quran, not my own opinion. If I was left to what I wanted prior to reading Quran, Id say let them in. Christians are perhaps the worst at idol worshipping, since the prophet himself (Isa) said to worship God alone. How many chances do you give such people when the truth is obvious? This whole life is a chance for us. What happens after yawm ad deen I have no clue whether they will be able to get out of Jahannam, except for the translation/interpretation that Arnold gave us.
I know the Sunnis thought on this, although conflicted, Ive heard a majority say that you can get out, but their detail isn't as good as Arnolds.
Peace
-
Peace Amuslim,
Keep in mind 622-24. Everyone thinks they are monotheist.
Thats past tense. What does the Quran say about people that worship things beside God? These people are going against the natural order that Allah has given us in the very beginning.
True, I am referring to the gray areas i.e. not literally worshipping idols.
Christians are perhaps the worst at idol worshipping, since the prophet himself (Isa) said to worship God alone.
Isn't this true for every sect/religion though? Every prophet went with that message and humans destroyed that message. I am just saying christians wouldn't get 'special' treatment.
And Im not trying to be judgemental, Im speaking what it says in Quran, not my own opinion. If I was left to what I wanted prior to reading Quran
Understood.
I know the Sunnis thought on this, although conflicted, Ive heard a majority say that you can get out, but their detail isn't as good as Arnolds.
I believe in Sunnism if you have more 'sins' than good deeds you work it off in hell and then you can go to paradise. Keep in mind 280 in conflict to this.
Sorry to hijack the thread.
peace
-
Peace DArgeto,
Peace Amuslim,
Keep in mind 622-24. Everyone thinks they are monotheist.
If thats the case, then no ones going to pay at judgement day.
True, I am referring to the gray areas i.e. not literally worshipping idols.
Whats the difference of worshipping a man compared to a pile of rocks? I find no difference. In both cases, you make a creation to be God. If God gets "angry" at the fact that people call Jesus the Son of God, imagine making Jesus God Him/Her/Itself? Remember the allegory of the skies waiting to burst, etc. if they could, due to calling the Mesiach the Son of God, how much worse is it to equate Jesus as God? Allah outright disowns them and doesnt even call them Christians. Forgive me for not clarifying. When I say Christians, I mean Trinitarians. Of course the real Christians worship Allah SWT. I generally call them Unitarians. Again, sorry if I was confusing.
Isn't this true for every sect/religion though? Every prophet went with that message and humans destroyed that message. I am just saying christians wouldn't get 'special' treatment.
Thats true, but I guess its just the current dilemma which gets me frustrated at a lot of them (Muslims too). I watch their shows and see how blind they are to their own book, again, Muslims included. However, even though Muslims revere Muhammad way too much IMO, they don't equate or declare that Muhammad is indeed God, or better.
Understood.
I believe in Sunnism if you have more 'sins' than good deeds you work it off in hell and then you can go to paradise. Keep in mind 280 in conflict to this.
Sorry to hijack the thread.
peace
Im not sure, but in the Quran, doesnt it say for every good deed that it's doubled? As far as working it off in Hell, what do you mean by that? How exactly do you work it off in your opinion? Just suffer the torment?
The few days that the Jews mention, even my Sunni friends mention that as well. They drink alcohol, smoke, have sex, etc. but they say that since they are Muslim, they will be in Hell only temporarily.
and no problem.
Peace
-
Peace DArgeto,
If thats the case, then no ones going to pay at judgement day.
Whats the difference of worshipping a man compared to a pile of rocks? I find no difference. In both cases, you make a creation to be God. If God gets "angry" at the fact that people call Jesus the Son of God, imagine making Jesus God Him/Her/Itself? Remember the allegory of the skies waiting to burst, etc. if they could, due to calling the Mesiach the Son of God, how much worse is it to equate Jesus as God? Allah outright disowns them and doesnt even call them Christians. Forgive me for not clarifying. When I say Christians, I mean Trinitarians. Of course the real Christians worship Allah SWT. I generally call them Unitarians. Again, sorry if I was confusing.
Thats true, but I guess its just the current dilemma which gets me frustrated at a lot of them (Muslims too). I watch their shows and see how blind they are to their own book, again, Muslims included. However, even though Muslims revere Muhammad way too much IMO, they don't equate or declare that Muhammad is indeed God, or better.
Im not sure, but in the Quran, doesnt it say for every good deed that it's doubled? As far as working it off in Hell, what do you mean by that? How exactly do you work it off in your opinion? Just suffer the torment?
The few days that the Jews mention, even my Sunni friends mention that as well. They drink alcohol, smoke, have sex, etc. but they say that since they are Muslim, they will be in Hell only temporarily.
and no problem.
Peace
Peace Amuslim,
If thats the case, then no ones going to pay at judgement day.
Why so?
I was pointing that a lot of people commit shirk without knowing it. In the verses I referenced; people swear by God in front of him that they are not idol-worshippers! While there could be obvious idol-worshippers (in our mind(s) anyway), that doesn't negate the possibility of others who claim to be monotheists (me included) who might be mushriks. Aside from literally worshipping idols, shirk to me is just believing in falsehood. Creating sects for example is shirk. And in the context of the quran IMO, a peaceful idol-worshipper/disbeliever is an oxymoron.
Whats the difference of worshipping a man compared to a pile of rocks? I find no difference. In both cases, you make a creation to be God. If God gets "angry" at the fact that people call Jesus the Son of God, imagine making Jesus God Him/Her/Itself? Remember the allegory of the skies waiting to burst, etc. if they could, due to calling the Mesiach the Son of God, how much worse is it to equate Jesus as God? Allah outright disowns them and doesnt even call them Christians. Forgive me for not clarifying. When I say Christians, I mean Trinitarians. Of course the real Christians worship Allah SWT. I generally call them Unitarians. Again, sorry if I was confusing.
No difference.
No problem, you weren't confusing. While an ideology may seem idolatrous on the surface, we have to remember there are people who deny the trinity who don't call themselves unitarians. Another example Sunniism may seem idolatrous on the surface, but does that mean every sunni is hell-bound? And that every sunni is idolatrous? No.
In any case, you can commit shirk even when you don't worship anything other than God. Please see this
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15618.msg151260#msg151260
Make sure to verify it, but I attempted to extract the character traits of idol-worshippers.
I watch their shows and see how blind they are to their own book, again, Muslims included. However, even though Muslims revere Muhammad way too much IMO, they don't equate or declare that Muhammad is indeed God, or better.
I believe it's our actions and inner-most intentions (different from just intentions; innermost intentions are shown through our actions) that make us disbelievers/idol-worshippers. While they don't claim that Muhammad is a god, i believe in many of their actions they show it. Always next to Allah, never satisfied with Allah alone, quran alone etc... Some signs that make this/these point(s)
3945, 4012, 393, 3936, 2165, 6162
Im not sure, but in the Quran, doesnt it say for every good deed that it's doubled? As far as working it off in Hell, what do you mean by that? How exactly do you work it off in your opinion? Just suffer the torment?
Actually 10 times, not 2. I was just stating what sunnis believe. That they believe if you have more sins ... you work it off in hell until your good outweigh the sins and then you can go to paradise. IMO, Hell and heaven are metaphoric as mentioned in al-quran. Doesn't leave out the possibility that they could be physical places, but it doesn't limit it to this understanding.
They drink alcohol, smoke, have sex, etc. but they say that since they are Muslim, they will be in Hell only temporarily.
Exactly.
-
Peace all,
In chapter 55-Ar-rahmaan (The creator), there is mention of two worldly "heavens and hells", and two "heavens and hells" in the afterlife.
In this world, 2 "heavens" -- one for our egocentric side (jin) and one for our altruistic side (ins) --, and 2 "hells" for both. And the same in the afterlife, but different in quality and quantity.
While we should strive to be in a state of "bliss" in this world, both physically and mentally, in the afterlife, this state of bliss is for free, and it lasts as existence can last.
As for "hell", it is a state of extreme stress, both physically and mentally, that can be avoided by following the straight path.
Chapter 55 is addressing this issue "heavily", both literally and metaphorically.
peace