ATTN Arnold - Why will Trinitarians, idol worshippers, etc. not go to Heaven?
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Peace,
First learnt to have patience in understanding somebody;s point of view before jumping to conclusions and secondly, please respect other people's requests
But everybody, please let this conversation be between me and amuslim as then it is easier for me to answer the questions, I am very busy so do not have time or urge to answer questions or arguments by several people.
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Peace Arnold,
Sorry for the late reply, but I read it earlier. Youve answered my questions, thanks for your insights into those matters, its much appreciated.
Peace
They won't? Our judgement can be futile.
Joe
Disbelivers don't get into jannat, am I right? Much less, idol worshippers who associate partners with God? At least thats what I am reading in the Quran.
Peace
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Peace Brother Arnold
What happens to us when we die, that is the very next second.What happens to the believers ? is the new universe already created for them that they go directly there or would it be created later.Also the non believers, where do they go ??????
Salaam
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Peace Brother Arnold
What happens to us when we die, that is the very next second.What happens to the believers ? is the new universe already created for them that they go directly there or would it be created later.Also the non believers, where do they go ??????
Salaam
All of them will stay in " Alam barzakh ' till the last day.
peace -
Peace
Disbelivers don't get into jannat, am I right? Much less, idol worshippers who associate partners with God? At least thats what I am reading in the Quran.
Those terms are subjective are they not?
We were all idol worshippers and disbelievers at some point or another, no? -
Peace DArgento
Peace
Those terms are subjective are they not?
We were all idol worshippers and disbelievers at some point or another, no?Thats past tense. What does the Quran say about people that worship things beside God? These people are going against the natural order that Allah has given us in the very beginning.
And Im not trying to be judgemental, Im speaking what it says in Quran, not my own opinion. If I was left to what I wanted prior to reading Quran, Id say let them in. Christians are perhaps the worst at idol worshipping, since the prophet himself (Isa) said to worship God alone. How many chances do you give such people when the truth is obvious? This whole life is a chance for us. What happens after yawm ad deen I have no clue whether they will be able to get out of Jahannam, except for the translation/interpretation that Arnold gave us.
I know the Sunnis thought on this, although conflicted, Ive heard a majority say that you can get out, but their detail isn't as good as Arnolds.
Peace
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Peace Amuslim,
Keep in mind 622-24. Everyone thinks they are monotheist.
Thats past tense. What does the Quran say about people that worship things beside God? These people are going against the natural order that Allah has given us in the very beginning.
True, I am referring to the gray areas i.e. not literally worshipping idols.
Christians are perhaps the worst at idol worshipping, since the prophet himself (Isa) said to worship God alone.
Isn't this true for every sect/religion though? Every prophet went with that message and humans destroyed that message. I am just saying christians wouldn't get 'special' treatment.
And Im not trying to be judgemental, Im speaking what it says in Quran, not my own opinion. If I was left to what I wanted prior to reading Quran
Understood.
I know the Sunnis thought on this, although conflicted, Ive heard a majority say that you can get out, but their detail isn't as good as Arnolds.
I believe in Sunnism if you have more 'sins' than good deeds you work it off in hell and then you can go to paradise. Keep in mind 280 in conflict to this.
Sorry to hijack the thread.
peace
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Peace DArgeto,
Peace Amuslim,
Keep in mind 622-24. Everyone thinks they are monotheist.
If thats the case, then no ones going to pay at judgement day.
True, I am referring to the gray areas i.e. not literally worshipping idols.
Whats the difference of worshipping a man compared to a pile of rocks? I find no difference. In both cases, you make a creation to be God. If God gets "angry" at the fact that people call Jesus the Son of God, imagine making Jesus God Him/Her/Itself? Remember the allegory of the skies waiting to burst, etc. if they could, due to calling the Mesiach the Son of God, how much worse is it to equate Jesus as God? Allah outright disowns them and doesnt even call them Christians. Forgive me for not clarifying. When I say Christians, I mean Trinitarians. Of course the real Christians worship Allah SWT. I generally call them Unitarians. Again, sorry if I was confusing.
Isn't this true for every sect/religion though? Every prophet went with that message and humans destroyed that message. I am just saying christians wouldn't get 'special' treatment.
Thats true, but I guess its just the current dilemma which gets me frustrated at a lot of them (Muslims too). I watch their shows and see how blind they are to their own book, again, Muslims included. However, even though Muslims revere Muhammad way too much IMO, they don't equate or declare that Muhammad is indeed God, or better.
Understood.
I believe in Sunnism if you have more 'sins' than good deeds you work it off in hell and then you can go to paradise. Keep in mind 280 in conflict to this.
Sorry to hijack the thread.
peace
Im not sure, but in the Quran, doesnt it say for every good deed that it's doubled? As far as working it off in Hell, what do you mean by that? How exactly do you work it off in your opinion? Just suffer the torment?
The few days that the Jews mention, even my Sunni friends mention that as well. They drink alcohol, smoke, have sex, etc. but they say that since they are Muslim, they will be in Hell only temporarily.
and no problem.
Peace
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Peace DArgeto,
If thats the case, then no ones going to pay at judgement day.
Whats the difference of worshipping a man compared to a pile of rocks? I find no difference. In both cases, you make a creation to be God. If God gets "angry" at the fact that people call Jesus the Son of God, imagine making Jesus God Him/Her/Itself? Remember the allegory of the skies waiting to burst, etc. if they could, due to calling the Mesiach the Son of God, how much worse is it to equate Jesus as God? Allah outright disowns them and doesnt even call them Christians. Forgive me for not clarifying. When I say Christians, I mean Trinitarians. Of course the real Christians worship Allah SWT. I generally call them Unitarians. Again, sorry if I was confusing.
Thats true, but I guess its just the current dilemma which gets me frustrated at a lot of them (Muslims too). I watch their shows and see how blind they are to their own book, again, Muslims included. However, even though Muslims revere Muhammad way too much IMO, they don't equate or declare that Muhammad is indeed God, or better.
Im not sure, but in the Quran, doesnt it say for every good deed that it's doubled? As far as working it off in Hell, what do you mean by that? How exactly do you work it off in your opinion? Just suffer the torment?
The few days that the Jews mention, even my Sunni friends mention that as well. They drink alcohol, smoke, have sex, etc. but they say that since they are Muslim, they will be in Hell only temporarily.
and no problem.
Peace
Peace Amuslim,
If thats the case, then no ones going to pay at judgement day.
Why so?
I was pointing that a lot of people commit shirk without knowing it. In the verses I referenced; people swear by God in front of him that they are not idol-worshippers! While there could be obvious idol-worshippers (in our mind(s) anyway), that doesn't negate the possibility of others who claim to be monotheists (me included) who might be mushriks. Aside from literally worshipping idols, shirk to me is just believing in falsehood. Creating sects for example is shirk. And in the context of the quran IMO, a peaceful idol-worshipper/disbeliever is an oxymoron.
Whats the difference of worshipping a man compared to a pile of rocks? I find no difference. In both cases, you make a creation to be God. If God gets "angry" at the fact that people call Jesus the Son of God, imagine making Jesus God Him/Her/Itself? Remember the allegory of the skies waiting to burst, etc. if they could, due to calling the Mesiach the Son of God, how much worse is it to equate Jesus as God? Allah outright disowns them and doesnt even call them Christians. Forgive me for not clarifying. When I say Christians, I mean Trinitarians. Of course the real Christians worship Allah SWT. I generally call them Unitarians. Again, sorry if I was confusing.
No difference.
No problem, you weren't confusing. While an ideology may seem idolatrous on the surface, we have to remember there are people who deny the trinity who don't call themselves unitarians. Another example Sunniism may seem idolatrous on the surface, but does that mean every sunni is hell-bound? And that every sunni is idolatrous? No.
In any case, you can commit shirk even when you don't worship anything other than God. Please see this
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15618.msg151260#msg151260
Make sure to verify it, but I attempted to extract the character traits of idol-worshippers.
I watch their shows and see how blind they are to their own book, again, Muslims included. However, even though Muslims revere Muhammad way too much IMO, they don't equate or declare that Muhammad is indeed God, or better.
I believe it's our actions and inner-most intentions (different from just intentions; innermost intentions are shown through our actions) that make us disbelievers/idol-worshippers. While they don't claim that Muhammad is a god, i believe in many of their actions they show it. Always next to Allah, never satisfied with Allah alone, quran alone etc... Some signs that make this/these point(s)
3945, 4012, 393, 3936, 2165, 6162
Im not sure, but in the Quran, doesnt it say for every good deed that it's doubled? As far as working it off in Hell, what do you mean by that? How exactly do you work it off in your opinion? Just suffer the torment?
Actually 10 times, not 2. I was just stating what sunnis believe. That they believe if you have more sins ... you work it off in hell until your good outweigh the sins and then you can go to paradise. IMO, Hell and heaven are metaphoric as mentioned in al-quran. Doesn't leave out the possibility that they could be physical places, but it doesn't limit it to this understanding.
They drink alcohol, smoke, have sex, etc. but they say that since they are Muslim, they will be in Hell only temporarily.
Exactly.
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Peace all,
In chapter 55-Ar-rahmaan (The creator), there is mention of two worldly "heavens and hells", and two "heavens and hells" in the afterlife.
In this world, 2 "heavens" -- one for our egocentric side (jin) and one for our altruistic side (ins) --, and 2 "hells" for both. And the same in the afterlife, but different in quality and quantity.
While we should strive to be in a state of "bliss" in this world, both physically and mentally, in the afterlife, this state of bliss is for free, and it lasts as existence can last.
As for "hell", it is a state of extreme stress, both physically and mentally, that can be avoided by following the straight path.
Chapter 55 is addressing this issue "heavily", both literally and metaphorically.
peace
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Peace DArgento,
Why so?
I was pointing that a lot of people commit shirk without knowing it. In the verses I referenced; people swear by God in front of him that they are not idol-worshippers! While there could be obvious idol-worshippers (in our mind(s) anyway), that doesn't negate the possibility of others who claim to be monotheists (me included) who might be mushriks. Aside from literally worshipping idols, shirk to me is just believing in falsehood. Creating sects for example is shirk. And in the context of the quran IMO, a peaceful idol-worshipper/disbeliever is an oxymoron.
I totally agree. However, even though that may be a fact, it still remains that it will be punished. We are talking about Islam here, and we accept between you, me, and everyone else on this board, that the Quran is a fact. If I were to have this discussion with a Christian, I wouldn't be making adamant statements like I am now to you, since they don't believe in the Quran.
A peaceful-idolworshipper, an oxymoron in regards to Quran? Would this go against your own personal beliefs, or do you take the Qurans context of them in your opinion as a fact, since you follow Quran? It goes against nature, it goes against truth. Perhaps thats the reason why it isnt peaceful as its a deviation from the correct path by following man made inventions.
No difference.
No problem, you weren't confusing. While an ideology may seem idolatrous on the surface, we have to remember there are people who deny the trinity who don't call themselves unitarians. Another example Sunniism may seem idolatrous on the surface, but does that mean every sunni is hell-bound? And that every sunni is idolatrous? No.
In any case, you can commit shirk even when you don't worship anything other than God. Please see this
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15618.msg151260#msg151260
Make sure to verify it, but I attempted to extract the character traits of idol-worshippers.
Thats what Im getting at in the next paragraph that you quote me on. I don't think they are hell bound, but they are very close to being like the Christians.
Obviously shirk is anything other than God. The Quran states this about your own ego.
I believe it's our actions and inner-most intentions (different from just intentions; innermost intentions are shown through our actions) that make us disbelievers/idol-worshippers. While they don't claim that Muhammad is a god, i believe in many of their actions they show it. Always next to Allah, never satisfied with Allah alone, quran alone etc... Some signs that make this/these point(s)
3945, 4012, 393, 3936, 2165, 6162
Their actions to me are very close to idol worship, perhaps exceeding it at times. However, it still isn't close to what the Trinitarians believe or do. They declare it as their faith, and they pray to God AS Jesus. Although Sunnis pray to Muhammad, exalt him, etc. they still know that Allah is above Muhammad, even if they believe that Muhammad is the best man ever. Christians state that a man IS God. Two different lifestyles.
Actually 10 times, not 2. I was just stating what sunnis believe. That they believe if you have more sins ... you work it off in hell until your good outweigh the sins and then you can go to paradise. IMO, Hell and heaven are metaphoric as mentioned in al-quran. Doesn't leave out the possibility that they could be physical places, but it doesn't limit it to this understanding.
I didn't use that as a rebuttal, I was just trying to clarify as it came to mind, thanks for the correction.
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Peace DArgento,
I totally agree. However, even though that may be a fact, it still remains that it will be punished. We are talking about Islam here, and we accept between you, me, and everyone else on this board, that the Quran is a fact. If I were to have this discussion with a Christian, I wouldn't be making adamant statements like I am now to you, since they don't believe in the Quran.
A peaceful-idolworshipper, an oxymoron in regards to Quran? Would this go against your own personal beliefs, or do you take the Qurans context of them in your opinion as a fact, since you follow Quran? It goes against nature, it goes against truth. Perhaps thats the reason why it isnt peaceful as its a deviation from the correct path by following man made inventions.
Thats what Im getting at in the next paragraph that you quote me on. I don't think they are hell bound, but they are very close to being like the Christians.
Obviously shirk is anything other than God. The Quran states this about your own ego.
Their actions to me are very close to idol worship, perhaps exceeding it at times. However, it still isn't close to what the Trinitarians believe or do. They declare it as their faith, and they pray to God AS Jesus. Although Sunnis pray to Muhammad, exalt him, etc. they still know that Allah is above Muhammad, even if they believe that Muhammad is the best man ever. Christians state that a man IS God. Two different lifestyles.
I didn't use that as a rebuttal, I was just trying to clarify as it came to mind, thanks for the correction.
Would this go against your own personal beliefs, or do you take the Qurans context of them in your opinion as a fact, since you follow Quran?
Still have yet to find the example of an idol-worshipper/rejecter doing good things in al-quran.
Their actions to me are very close to idol worship, perhaps exceeding it at times. However, it still isn't close to what the Trinitarians believe or do. They declare it as their faith, and they pray to God AS Jesus. Although Sunnis pray to Muhammad, exalt him, etc. they still know that Allah is above Muhammad, even if they believe that Muhammad is the best man ever. Christians state that a man IS God. Two different lifestyles.
There is not good or bad idol-worshipper or in this case a bad and worse idol-worshipper. Shirk is shirk is shirk is shirk. Not all christians agree that Christ = God.
I didn't use that as a rebuttal, I was just trying to clarify as it came to mind, thanks for the correction.
My honor.
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Peace DArgento
Still have yet to find the example of an idol-worshipper/rejecter doing good things in al-quran.
They allow you to eat those that God has prohibited, don't follow fitrah, etc. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that some of them aren't nice. It just means they are damned perhaps, therefore it doesn't matter, especially since the book is to put us back on the correct path.
There is not good or bad idol-worshipper or in this case a bad and worse idol-worshipper. Shirk is shirk is shirk is shirk. Not all christians agree that Christ = God.
Agreed. I also didnt say that all Christians believe that Jesus is God, as elaborated two posts before this. Not sure if you are saying that I am saying that since you stated that?
Peace
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Peace DArgento
They allow you to eat those that God has prohibited, don't follow fitrah, etc. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that some of them aren't nice. It just means they are damned perhaps, therefore it doesn't matter, especially since the book is to put us back on the correct path.
Agreed. I also didnt say that all Christians believe that Jesus is God, as elaborated two posts before this. Not sure if you are saying that I am saying that since you stated that?
Peace
Peace amuslim and Dargento,
The main problem in this discussion is that amuslim still uses very religious words as damned/worship and so on. Islam is a system, not a religion. It is about service to mankind, not about worshipping God, He is without any need and worshipping doesn't do anything better for Mankind as a whole, it only fulfills your personal need for spirituality and salvation, which in itself is a reaction for the lack of God's system on Earth.
People are not damned in the religious sense, they are not part of the evolution anymore. Was the Dodo damned by God or by its lack to cope with Mankind's presence? The word damnation is used in a wrong context I believe.
A person who sees the Quran has having the perfect system for Mankind to follow, Zakat which will take care of the needs of people, Hajj which is a Global Debate to solve the problems of Mankind and so on. The person who studies nature can see there is only One Will at work, and thus they will confirm there is only one ileh, only one authority in the universe.
Such a person is called a Muslim. A person who creates the system in a nation is called a Mumin, a person who upholds the system in any situation is called mustaqeem (from Qama, to stand firm), a person living under God's System is also called a Muslim, one who is in peace.
It doesn't matter if a non-Muslim is good or not, that person rejects God's System of Islam, thus the person rejects the only system that will help Mankind to find peace. This is why the Laws of God that run the Universe will reject that person for further progress as it did not choose anything for the good of Mankind, it was only busy with personal salvation.
"The whole Universe is based on evolution, not the law of the fittest, but the law on what will make your own species develop further. Many biologists have in my eyes misunderstood evolution as the law of the strongest, but I believe it is the law of the most benficial to the species.
A mushrikeen, one that bases his or her beliefs on man-made sources can be good to others, but do not contribute to the development of mankind and even stops mankind. A triniterian will uphold capatilism as its system, an unfair system that does not help mankind.
Thus, because a triniterian, sunni, shia, buddhist and so on hold on to man-mad beliefs and thus also man-made systems, they hold back Mankind as a whole. Thus they are not beneficial to Mankind and its development.
If people wanted REAL beneficience for Mankind, they would look for something that truly benefitted mankind as a whole. But no, they are only busy with PERSONAL salvation as this is what their beliefs tells them to pursue.
This is also why many Muslims reject the Quranic System, as it doesn't support personal salvation as its goal, but universal development.
Because of this, Mankind lives under man-made laws and systems and thus do not really develop and constantly end up in a state of Jahannam, a place of no growth, a place of destruction.
When we do not develop in this life, we will not also develop in the Next Life.
Thus you are judged on how benefitting you were to Mankind and its development as a whole. Not just your good deeds to single persons here and there. No, you are judged on your position and contribution to Mankind as a whole.
Just as we lost our tails during evolution, people who do not contribute to the development of mankind will also be lost during the Universal Evolution and end up in the garbagedumop of the Universe, Jahannam. Those that do contribute to the development of Mankind as a whole are chosen to stay within the evolution of the Universe, they are in a state of Jannah, neverending growth and development."
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Salaam,
I am writing a new article about the development of Mankind, it will be done in a month or so inshAllah. The above 2 articles are snapshots of my development in my research of about a year ago, my thoughts and knowledge has developed much further since then, but they are interesting introductions.