Face cover: God's only flaw?
-
Peace,
Some women find the headscarf / face veil (niqab) / burqa (full veil) liberating and I can see why (not saying I agree, just saying I can understand why some do). So to imply that there is something wrong with these women because they find it liberating does not give an honest picture in my opinion.
Also, from my experience of the forum, there seems to be a prevalent myth that the head cover is not in AQ. That is not entirely accurate. It would be more correct to say that there is no 100% clear commandment that women must wear the head cover, but a reasonable case can be made for it using AQ
http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/khimar.htm
Please note reasonable does not equate to solid/proven/etc.Very glad to hear a voice of reason on this thread! Well said..
peace
-
At the same time, I am married to a Caucasian, and she loves the hijab (but not any of the head to toe crap). It helps her feel modest etc... Personally, I don't like the hijab. I think it's demeaning, but it's her choice.
Funny, she was called a 'terrorist' in Wal-mart by some old lady and she still wears it.I like the jilbab/head cover too because I think women look nice in it but Im only against 'ninja outfit'.
-
Peace,
Well, there are a lot to comment about the hijjab but I resist this time.
Notes I have both wear the hijjab many years and then lay it off.
But worth to mention and often forgotten is that the best garment is the garment of righteousness.
Maria
-
Wadaraba Allahu mathalan lillatheena amanoo imraata firAAawna ith qalat rabbi ibni lee AAindaka baytan fee aljannati wanajjinee min firAAawna waAAamalihi wanajjinee mina alqawmi alththalimeena
6611 And Allah sets forth, as an example to those who believe the wife of Pharaoh Behold she said "O my Lord! Build for me, in nearness to Thee, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong";
There?s that DA-RA-BA word once again and below perhaps the nice lady?s dress code...
http//www.tiferet.co.il/ladies.jpg
-
I don't get it, is the picture showing the lady making the plea to Allah, or those that do wrong that she is asking not to be like? o hmm
Wadaraba Allahu mathalan lillatheena amanoo imraata firAAawna ith qalat rabbi ibni lee AAindaka baytan fee aljannati wanajjinee min firAAawna waAAamalihi wanajjinee mina alqawmi alththalimeena
6611 And Allah sets forth, as an example to those who believe the wife of Pharaoh Behold she said "O my Lord! Build for me, in nearness to Thee, a mansion in the Garden, and save me from Pharaoh and his doings, and save me from those that do wrong";
There?s that DA-RA-BA word once again and below perhaps the nice lady?s dress code...
http//www.tiferet.co.il/ladies.jpg
-
I do believe in freedom of expression but I also think that women who believe that ninja outfit liberates them have serious issues. It is just the extreme opposite.
I like wearing the headscarf since I converted.. maybe I just enjoy dressing up. Dressing ninjah in the West is a big no no for me - it doesn't liberate you here it gets in the way - people don't bother you here in the street. Ironically I've found in muslim countries (even Egypt) its almost essential if you want to be left alone by the local men...
My ex husband decided that I should start believing in Niqab (not to wear it just believe I was sinning for not wearing it) his justification for niqab was the 'khimar' verse. He said when Allah says in Quran for women to draw their cloaks around their chests it means to draw them over the head to cover everything showing only the eyes (to see out of) and now with modern fabrics the eyes don't even have to be seen whatever crazy or what?... sheesh
-
I don't get it, is the picture showing the lady making the plea to Allah, or those that do wrong that she is asking not to be like? o hmm
Neither ? the picture is only an example of ancient Egyptian women?s dress style.
Do you perceive anything wrong with it?
Or should they have adopted the style of Arabian women a few thousand years later?
http//www.arab2.com/arab-traditional-dress/images/saudi-palestine.gif
Above was the style in the Middle East to protect against sand winds and women wore head coverings which they pulled the ends back behind the neck to expose dresses styled with plunging necklines and verses advised instead to pull the ends forward and cover their cleavage area and to wear outer clothes over thin house garments when going outside so they won?t be bothered by those behaving like today's construction workers.
A comment from one of the girls in my family about a fashion show she modeled in with her sister who designed the dresses?
?These so called true followers bomb mosques with women and children. Oh yes they are definitely going to heaven meanwhile if I wear a pretty summer dress, I?m going to HELL??
-
stooped to eliminate the very face of women which Allah INTENTFULLY designed to be left uncovered at all times, just like the male counterpart.
uncovered at all times?
that's a little much, seeing as if god had intended us to never cover our faces he would never have created the canadian winter P
-
Salaams,
Women should adopt the style of dress that Allah tells them to, if they have faith in following the guidance that Allah gives. If so, they would prefer what Allah gives over what they desire themselves. So they would follow it to the best of their understanding at any given time. In the Jewish and Christian scriptures as well as the muslim scriptures, there has always been something to describe the dress code of women to distinguish the believing women from the women population in general. I don't know why Allah likes to single out how women dress, I just recognize that He does. There are no ayaat in Al Quran, for whatever reason that Allah choose, that specify that mean should wear jilbab or khimar, or similiar. Allahu Alim.
Human beings, including believers fail to follow a lot of the guidance that Allah gives to us. Whatever one considers the dress code from Allah in Al Quran, no one can say that not adhering to it will cause one to go to Hellfire. One can only say that not adhering to it is disobedience, and Allah forgives a lot of disobedience. We are all disobedient in some way. So advising one of what Allah says to do is only so that someone will know, then it is up to them to obey or not; not for the one giving the message to condemn them to hellfire. Allah is the One who weighs on the Day of Judgement, and who determines what is forgiven or not forgiven.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Neither ? the picture is only an example of ancient Egyptian women?s dress style.
Do you perceive anything wrong with it?
Or should they have adopted the style of Arabian women a few thousand years later?
http//www.arab2.com/arab-traditional-dress/images/saudi-palestine.gif
Above was the style in the Middle East to protect against sand winds and women wore head coverings which they pulled the ends back behind the neck to expose dresses styled with plunging necklines and verses advised instead to pull the ends forward and cover their cleavage area and to wear outer clothes over thin house garments when going outside so they won?t be bothered by those behaving like today's construction workers.
A comment from one of the girls in my family about a fashion show she modeled in with her sister who designed the dresses?
?These so called true followers bomb mosques with women and children. Oh yes they are definitely going to heaven meanwhile if I wear a pretty summer dress, I?m going to HELL??
-
Some one said the following on another forum
Can some one proficient in the classical arabic language, comment on this please? Thoughts from Sr. Samia would be appreciated.
This is not a linguistic comment, although I never heard of a "jilbaab" that covers the head. The word, and the garment, are still widely used in the Arab world (save north Africa) , which brings me to the "jilbaab" that covers the head, and maybe the face, with a hood attached to it. They do not call it "jilbaab" but "kaftaan".
My non-linguistic comment is, if the jilbaab was some garment that covers the head, what would be the point of khumur spread over it?
As for classical dictionaries, only lisaanul3arab mentions jilbaab as garment, and it has many different descriptions for it...According to it, "some" say it covers the head, some say it is an "overall,, or a khimar or something else. Nothing specific and not helping at all.
-
Salam,
I find the Jilbab argument to be quite lame since the verse in question clearly speaks about covering the breasts - no head or eye or hair or any other invented nonsence.
The better argument I have seen is the one that invokes sura 33 which claims that the prophet
s wives being ordered to speak to men from behind a veil/hijaab is a role model for all women - of course, this argument misses the remaining verses which speak of the prophets wives as being "unlike" any other women and that different laws apply to them (such as being forbidden to remarry). -
Peace,
I can really see the big picture of this, that muslim women all the times have been striving to be like the wives of the Prophet. And likely they also choosed to speak from behind a veil.
Same goes for the christians, the x-tian women all want to be like Mariam (Mary) but no one can be like her.
Maria
-
Salaam,
This issue here isn't over jilbaab, which is in a different sura from the original question about khimar. The issue is about what does "bikhumurihinna" really mean. What is a khimar? How does a woman "spread it over her chest area"?
The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!
So there can be no doubt that Allah says to women to cover their chest area with their headscarves. The only question can be is if that means that they should (1) continue to cover their heads with their headscarf and also use it to cover their chest area by spreading it over such...(2) or do they no longer use the headscarf to cover the head, but use it to cover their chest area instead.
For me personally, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinion; but for me personally, I can only see number 1 as making sense because if the khimar no longer also covers the head, then it can not be a khimar and should have been given another name. Or it would have made more sense to just use a verb to say cover your chest, and not to say cover your chest "with your headscarf". By adding in "with your headscarf", using reason and logic this means that the headscarf also becomes obligatory to have in order to fulfill the command as told, IMHO.
Those who refuse to accept "khimar" as headscarf have no dictionaries or lexicons to support their view that this is not what it means specifically. They can only point to the root of the word and say that it means to cover, when the verbal form of the word is not used in the ayat in question. All the other things that they say "khimar" can mean all have their own words that are more appropiate to mean those things. This is pointed out in posts on this forum that I participated in, as well as the link that Wakas has provided.
As Salaamu Alaikum, )
Salam,
I find the Jilbab argument to be quite lame since the verse in question clearly speaks about covering the breasts - no head or eye or hair or any other invented nonsence.
The better argument I have seen is the one that invokes sura 33 which claims that the prophet
s wives being ordered to speak to men from behind a veil/hijaab is a role model for all women - of course, this argument misses the remaining verses which speak of the prophets wives as being "unlike" any other women and that different laws apply to them (such as being forbidden to remarry). -
Peace,
Ok, I have no lexicon, but I have read many times that sister Samia has explained that khimar in the lexicon is used for many things. Khimar is some kind of cloth that can cover ex. a table, a window, a body, or something else. And Quran says that women shall cover their breast with a cloth(khimar).
So a woman can take a piece of cloth like a big scarves and hang over her shoulder, why wrap it around her head?
Maria
-
Salaams SwedenMajidah,
What part of my last post didn't you understand? Let me help you again by pointing out some of it
The issue is about what does "bikhumurihinna" really mean. What is a khimar? How does a woman "spread it over her chest area"?
The consensus in all dictionaries and arabic lexicons is that a khimar is a headscarf!
So there can be no doubt that Allah says to women to cover their chest area with their headscarves. The only question can be is if that means that they should (1) continue to cover their heads with their headscarf and also use it to cover their chest area by spreading it over such...(2) or do they no longer use the headscarf to cover the head, but use it to cover their chest area instead.
For me personally, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinion; but for me personally, I can only see number 1 as making sense because if the khimar no longer also covers the head, then it can not be a khimar and should have been given another name. Or it would have made more sense to just use a verb to say cover your chest, and not to say cover your chest "with your headscarf". By adding in "with your headscarf", using reason and logic this means that the headscarf also becomes obligatory to have in order to fulfill the command as told, IMHO.
Those who refuse to accept "khimar" as headscarf have no dictionaries or lexicons to support their view that this is not what it means specifically. They can only point to the root of the word and say that it means to cover, when the verbal form of the word is not used in the ayat in question. All the other things that they say "khimar" can mean all have their own words that are more appropiate to mean those things. This is pointed out in posts on this forum that I participated in, as well as the link that Wakas has provided.
But since you don't believe in Al Quran as guidance from Allah anyway, why do you choose to follow Samia over what is in Al Quran and supported? (I think I gave myself the answer already.)
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Peace,
Ok, I have no lexicon, but I have read many times that sister Samia has explained that khimar in the lexicon is used for many things. Khimar is some kind of cloth that can cover ex. a table, a window, a body, or something else. And Quran says that women shall cover their breast with a cloth(khimar).
So a woman can take a piece of cloth like a big scarves and hang over her shoulder, why wrap it around her head?
Maria
-
Salaams Wakas,
I read through the entire thread that you posted below, but I am curious as to what your conclusion was based on it since you gave it here. It seems most of the discussion was between Samia and Leoxyz. The other link you provided early in this thread said
The following 10 dictionaries agree that KHIMAAR means a piece of cloth with which a woman covers her head
-
Lisaan-al-Arab by Ibn-e-Manzoor
-
Taaj-el-uroos
-
Lataif-ul-Lughat
-
Lughat-ul-Quran by Parvez
-
Dictionary of the holy Quran by Omar
-
A dictionary and glossary of the Quran by John Penrice
-
Almufradat by Raghib
-
Hans Wehrs dictionary of Modern written Arabic
-
Lane?s Lexicon
-
Al-Qamoos-ul muheet (while describing the meanings of ghifara)
Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of KHIMAAR says that ?everything that is used to cover or conceal a thing is its khimaar?. However, the same Al-Qamoos while describing the meanings of ghifara says, ghifara is something worn on the head by women before wearing khimaar on the head so that ghifara protects the khimaar worn on the head from hair oil etc.
According to the above, there is overwhelming evidence that KHIMAAR was a piece of cloth that Arab women used to wear at the time of revelation of the Quran.
So Im just curious from the two links that you included as to what your understanding of "khimaar" can be or is not.
peace all,
Sister Samia and I discussed the use of "khumur" in 2431 here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14616.msg136095#msg136095Thanks a lot.
As Salaamu Alaikum, )
-
