Face cover: God's only flaw?
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Peace all,
I will first point out that I'm not here for some endless discussion of who is right or wrong.
I will take sis samias example as well could have happen theory. I have also read before about the dress of women before Islam, and that the fashion was to leave the breast uncovered. So why so surprised about this?
And I guess we all have seen nature people who are nude or half nude and only cover for special weather conditions, like sand storms or extreme cold during night etc.
We are all born nude, and we cover ourselves for many reasons. But I have difficult to find a reason to why God will hide all women. In Quran it says that the best garment is the garment of righteouses so, why then press this about headcovers so hard?
Peace
MariaIt's a single verse in the whole quran, hardly a pressed issue compared to most commandments. There is only one reason for the hard pressing, because traditionalists want to maintain the status quo. In this case, the burden of proof is on us who want change. This verse is hardly a command to "hide all women", it's a command to all believing women to cover their chests.
So there can be no doubt that Allah says to women to cover their chest area with their headscarves. The only question can be is if that means that they should (1) continue to cover their heads with their headscarf and also use it to cover their chest area by spreading it over such...(2) or do they no longer use the headscarf to cover the head, but use it to cover their chest area instead.
For me personally, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinion; but for me personally, I can only see number 1 as making sense because if the khimar no longer also covers the head, then it can not be a khimar and should have been given another name. Or it would have made more sense to just use a verb to say cover your chest, and not to say cover your chest "with your headscarf". By adding in "with your headscarf", using reason and logic this means that the headscarf also becomes obligatory to have in order to fulfill the command as told, IMHO.
Not at all. It can preserve its name but have a different purpose. For instance, if it was a scarf, which is also used for the head, then it wouldn't stop being a scarf if wrapped around the chest.
I see it as (2) because as logically accurate as the verse gets, it is an ORDER for the believing women to TAKE their headscarf and USE IT TO COVER their chests. If a headscarf woman read that verse, how else could she comply with the commandment but by doing an action, the action being to take the headscarf and use it to cover her chest?
You cannot interpret it as (1) because that is a logical fallacy, the scarf being a headscarf in no way changes the message to TAKE the scarf and USE IT TO COVER the chest, because the actions are already defined. In addition, in no way does the verse imply that the head MUST be covered, but on the other hand, it does state clearly that the chest MUST be covered.
Anyway, might we note that in isolated situations where people have no access to other cultures (such as the Sentinelese), things are very different and breasts aren't treated as sexual objects.
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It's a single verse in the whole quran, hardly a pressed issue compared to most commandments.
Salaam OPF
You took the words out of my mouth, there are so many verses of Qur?an which end on warning of grievous punishment, painful doom, painful torment., tremendous trial, and in the Hereafter, an awful doom etc. whereas Surah 2432 ends on this note And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed
I just can not understand why most men think it?s their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to women?s issues?
The covering of the head is not the beginning nor is it the end nor is it an open sin and men would certainly not be questioned about it as none can carry the load of another.
Best regards
farida -
I see it as (2) because as logically accurate as the verse gets, it is an ORDER for the believing women to TAKE their headscarf and USE IT TO COVER their chests. If a headscarf woman read that verse, how else could she comply with the commandment but by doing an action, the action being to take the headscarf and use it to cover her chest?
You cannot interpret it as (1) because that is a logical fallacy, the scarf being a headscarf in no way changes the message to TAKE the scarf and USE IT TO COVER the chest, because the actions are already defined. In addition, in no way does the verse imply that the head MUST be covered, but on the other hand, it does state clearly that the chest MUST be covered.
Anyway, might we note that in isolated situations where people have no access to other cultures (such as the Sentinelese), things are very different and breasts aren't treated as sexual objects.
Maybe you missed this part
From Samia on Reply #130 on June 16, 2007, 013924 AM
I see that the verb "dharaba" is getting us in trouble again in this verse!! The argument, as I understand, is whether to cast the scarf on the bosoms only (scarf then means cover) or keep it on the head And "hold on place/sew it" on th bosom! From all the meanings of dharaba in dictionaries and general usage, I never heard of it meaning "to sew" nor "to hold on place".Daharaba fil ardh travel (so it is not hold on place; just the opposite)
dharaba example compared two things (again, opposite of hold on place)
dharaba a tent spread it, unfold it (again, opposite of hold on place).The usage of this very verb in the context of our verse clearly means spread your "scarf, cover..whatever" on your bosoms. To do this, one has to move it from the head (if it is even there) and put it on the bosom. The bosom has the priority over the head in being covered.
So SOMETHING that was ALREADY there is told to use to SPREAD over the chest area. Spread means to keep where it is and cover additional area in this sense.
Anyway, might we note that in isolated situations where people have no access to other cultures (such as the Sentinelese), things are very different and breasts aren't treated as sexual objects.
And maybe you missed this part
Surely you believe as Samia that they were 100% barbarians that wore nothing but leather strips & , even though they were in the presence of the people of previous scriptures and others that were civilized! hmm
And who said that Allah revealed the ayats about women's dress because of sexual gratification/repression/excitement or anything of that nature? Surely it is not mentioned in those ayaat that this is the reason for the commandment!
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Maybe you missed this part
So SOMETHING that was ALREADY there is told to use to SPREAD over the chest area. Spread means to keep where it is and cover additional area in this sense.
And maybe you missed this part
And who said that Allah revealed the ayats about women's dress because of sexual gratification/repression/excitement or anything of that nature? Surely it is not mentioned in those ayaat that this is the reason for the commandment!
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Salaam
I repeat there are so many verses of Qur?an which end on warning of grievous punishment, painful doom, painful torment., tremendous trial, and in the Hereafter, an awful doom etc. whereas Surah 2432 ends on this note And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeedI just can not understand why some men think it?s their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to women?s issues?
The covering of the head is not the beginning nor is it the end nor is it an open sin and men would certainly not be questioned about it as none can carry the load of another.
Best regards
farida -
Salaam OPF
You took the words out of my mouth, there are so many verses of Qur?an which end on warning of grievous punishment, painful doom, painful torment., tremendous trial, and in the Hereafter, an awful doom etc. whereas Surah 2432 ends on this note And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed
I just can not understand why most men think it?s their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to women?s issues?
The covering of the head is not the beginning nor is it the end nor is it an open sin and men would certainly not be questioned about it as none can carry the load of another.
Best regards
faridaNor is this the only thread on this HUGE LARGE forum. To suggest that is ignoring thousands of other threads and posts. The whole of Quran is up for discussion by everyone here...not just men's issues for men and women issues for women.
Maybe you missed this point previously
Salaams,
Women should adopt the style of dress that Allah tells them to, if they have faith in following the guidance that Allah gives. If so, they would prefer what Allah gives over what they desire themselves. So they would follow it to the best of their understanding at any given time. In the Jewish and Christian scriptures as well as the muslim scriptures, there has always been something to describe the dress code of women to distinguish the believing women from the women population in general. I don't know why Allah likes to single out how women dress, I just recognize that He does. There are no ayaat in Al Quran, for whatever reason that Allah choose, that specify that mean should wear jilbab or khimar, or similiar. Allahu Alim.
Human beings, including believers fail to follow a lot of the guidance that Allah gives to us. Whatever one considers the dress code from Allah in Al Quran, no one can say that not adhering to it will cause one to go to Hellfire. One can only say that not adhering to it is disobedience, and Allah forgives a lot of disobedience. We are all disobedient in some way. So advising one of what Allah says to do is only so that someone will know, then it is up to them to obey or not; not for the one giving the message to condemn them to hellfire. Allah is the One who weighs on the Day of Judgement, and who determines what is forgiven or not forgiven.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Best regards,
IQA -
Salaam,
And I repeat, read my post above and maybe stop acting like you determine who gets to discuss what from Al Quran! A word to the wise; it is better to stop trying to understand people and continue to try to understand Al Quran.
Best regards,
IQOSalaam
I repeat there are so many verses of Qur?an which end on warning of grievous punishment, painful doom, painful torment., tremendous trial, and in the Hereafter, an awful doom etc. whereas Surah 2432 ends on this note And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeedI just can not understand why some men think it?s their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to women?s issues?
The covering of the head is not the beginning nor is it the end nor is it an open sin and men would certainly not be questioned about it as none can carry the load of another.
Best regards
farida -
Thought I'd share this with you, it made my blood boil.
A friend told me today she'd been reading an article by a well known Saudi Scholar. Of course he already supports the traditional Saudi ideas of completely covering the face AND EYES completely with a veil and that the abaya should be worn from the head in case (shock horror!) an outline of a shoulder may be seen. He now believes that gloves are not enough and the woman should have a button on the sleeve of the abaya to close when not using the hands so the form of the fingers in the gloves can not be seen! .........
Does the madness have any limits ???
brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall
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Maybe you missed this part
So SOMETHING that was ALREADY there is told to use to SPREAD over the chest area. Spread means to keep where it is and cover additional area in this sense.
And maybe you missed this part
And who said that Allah revealed the ayats about women's dress because of sexual gratification/repression/excitement or anything of that nature? Surely it is not mentioned in those ayaat that this is the reason for the commandment!
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
This is a big thread and yes I did miss those. But what you quoted from Samia simply states what I said
The usage of this very verb in the context of our verse clearly means spread your "scarf, cover..whatever" on your bosoms. To do this, one has to move it from the head (if it is even there) and put it on the bosom. The bosom has the priority over the head in being covered.
Then
So SOMETHING that was ALREADY there is told to use to SPREAD over the chest area. Spread means to keep where it is and cover additional area in this sense.
That's true provided it means spread and spread alone. That still doesn't change that any such command to wear the headscarf in this verse is weak because it uses passive language - in other verses of the quran there is a CLEAR command to do this or that.
And who said that Allah revealed the ayats about women's dress because of sexual gratification/repression/excitement or anything of that nature? Surely it is not mentioned in those ayaat that this is the reason for the commandment!
I agree partly but breasts are sexually arousing and hence part of what needs to be covered and if you doubt that you have to be either Sentinelese or in a loony bin / nudist camp. Of course women must have covered up, leather strips or otherwise because that's what is depicted everywhere. We shouldn't even have to look at history to know so.
My whole point is, that there is no clear command (clear as in using active language) to take the covering and wrap it over the head. And in a quran which claims to be clear and fully detailed, such a weak conclusion just will not hold. Are there any other commands in the quran that are essential to follow but only have one verse to them?
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Thought I'd share this with you, it made my blood boil.
A friend told me today she'd been reading an article by a well known Saudi Scholar. Of course he already supports the traditional Saudi ideas of completely covering the face AND EYES completely with a veil and that the abaya should be worn from the head in case (shock horror!) an outline of a shoulder may be seen. He now believes that gloves are not enough and the woman should have a button on the sleeve of the abaya to close when not using the hands so the form of the fingers in the gloves can not be seen! .........
Does the madness have any limits ???
brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall
Now that's sad '( and down right funny rotfl all at the same time! ???
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Thought I'd share this with you, it made my blood boil.
A friend told me today she'd been reading an article by a well known Saudi Scholar. Of course he already supports the traditional Saudi ideas of completely covering the face AND EYES completely with a veil and that the abaya should be worn from the head in case (shock horror!) an outline of a shoulder may be seen. He now believes that gloves are not enough and the woman should have a button on the sleeve of the abaya to close when not using the hands so the form of the fingers in the gloves can not be seen! .........
Does the madness have any limits ???
brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall
Great news for the camping industry ;D
Salaam OPF
You took the words out of my mouth, there are so many verses of Quran which end on warning of grievous punishment, painful doom, painful torment., tremendous trial, and in the Hereafter, an awful doom etc. whereas Surah 2432 ends on this note And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed
I just can not understand why most men think its their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to womens issues?
The covering of the head is not the beginning nor is it the end nor is it an open sin and men would certainly not be questioned about it as none can carry the load of another.
Best regards
faridaYou also have to keep in mind that in 2434, God emphasises yet again that quranic commands are clear. I really can't imagine that such a significant command (the headscarf is arguably the most visible thing about 'islam' today) would only have one verse and be vaguely implied even then, it makes little sense.
As for the bold, you have to note that whatever is written between 2427 and 2432 is incumbent on all believers, men or women so it is every bit as men's business as it is women's, just as women have the right not to be gawked at by men (2430), men have the right to tell women to cover up in 2431.
It's definitely not the beginning or the end but it's a visible mark and has to be treated with a bit of caution. Also, applying the same logic used to deduce that the usage of headscarf MUST mean that women are told to cover up results in all sorts of ridiculous notions.
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That's true provided it means spread and spread alone. That still doesn't change that any such command to wear the headscarf in this verse is weak because it uses passive language - in other verses of the quran there is a CLEAR command to do this or that.
I agree partly but breasts are sexually arousing and hence part of what needs to be covered and if you doubt that you have to be either Sentinelese or in a loony bin / nudist camp. Of course women must have covered up, leather strips or otherwise because that's what is depicted everywhere. We shouldn't even have to look at history to know so.
My whole point is, that there is no clear command (clear as in using active language) to take the covering and wrap it over the head. And in a quran which claims to be clear and fully detailed, such a weak conclusion just will not hold. Are there any other commands in the quran that are essential to follow but only have one verse to them?
If it doesn't just mean SPREAD, then what else are you suggesting that it is saying?
I already stated that the command can be looked at in two different ways, and I gave my opinion as to why I understand it the way that I do. Everyone else is entitled to their, just remember the warning I gave also.
The ayat also speaks about the chest area or cleavage, not the breasts; those were already supposed to be covered by jilbaab.
A weak conclusion is the one that there is no mention of a headscarf in Al Quran.
You can read one of my recent posts to farida here about how essential it is to follow this ayat.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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If it doesn't just mean SPREAD, then what else are you suggesting that it is saying?
I already stated that the command can be looked at in two different ways, and I gave my opinion as to why I understand it the way that I do. Everyone else is entitled to their, just remember the warning I gave also.
The ayat also speaks about the chest area or cleavage, not the breasts; those were already supposed to be covered by jilbaab.
A weak conclusion is the one that there is no mention of a headscarf in Al Quran.
You can read one of my recent posts to farida here about how essential it is to follow this ayat.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Salaam IMQ
And where do you read a word about hair in the Qur'an? The Head scarf is a cultural issue, whereas covering your breasts is clearly prescribed in the Holy Book.
However covering ones hair has become such a big issue that often you would see some women covering their head while leaving boobs not properly covered as advised in The Quran. Many believe that covering their head makes them righteous, whilst it's certainly not a sign of piety but rather of conformity.Best regards
farida -
If it doesn't just mean SPREAD, then what else are you suggesting that it is saying?
I already stated that the command can be looked at in two different ways, and I gave my opinion as to why I understand it the way that I do. Everyone else is entitled to their, just remember the warning I gave also.
The ayat also speaks about the chest area or cleavage, not the breasts; those were already supposed to be covered by jilbaab.
A weak conclusion is the one that there is no mention of a headscarf in Al Quran.
You can read one of my recent posts to farida here about how essential it is to follow this ayat.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
I'm not suggesting anything other than that there can be weak conclusions drawn here.
I already stated that the command can be looked at in two different ways, and I gave my opinion as to why I understand it the way that I do. Everyone else is entitled to their, just remember the warning I gave also.
Hardly in this case, because as I said
you have to note that whatever is written between 2427 and 2432 is incumbent on all believers, men or women so it is every bit as men's business as it is women's, just as women have the right not to be gawked at by men (2430), men have the right to tell women to cover up in 2431.
So there has to be something of a consensus here. Or you'll have a group of believers following their interpretation of 2431 and telling women to wear headscarves over their heads and chests, and another group telling women to pull their scarves over their chests alone. And this is quite an issue in sectarian circles and people do get killed over this trivial rubbish.
The ayat also speaks about the chest area or cleavage, not the breasts; those were already supposed to be covered by jilbaab.
Exactly so, but that doesn't change anything.
A weak conclusion is the one that there is no mention of a headscarf in Al Quran.
That's not an issue at all though, it has no logical connection to what needs clarification here. Of course a headscarf is mentioned, what is NOT mentioned is that the headscarf must be on the head. Just because it's called a headscarf doesn't mean it can only be used on the head or MUST be used on the head.
You can read one of my recent posts to farida here about how essential it is to follow this ayat.
Where is that post? In any case, it's very hard to judge how important this ayat would be in reality because there are too many variables, but considering the quran only dedicates a single verse and even then, weakly implies it (if it even does, which I find it wouldn't) it doesn't really make a case for it.
The verse assumes the women in question already have headscarves, what happens to women who don't already have headscarves? Somehow I doubt a cloth over the head or even over the chest qualifies a woman as "believing".
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Salaams farida,
Did you read the whole thread and study what was given by the two sides? Or are you just asking and mentioning random things to express your own personal opinion that isn't based from Al Quran?
Maybe those who do the things you mention would be better served to understand the ayat as I have continously explained in here. Make a summary of my posts in your own words on a piece of paper, and the next time you see a woman not wearing it for the right purpose, just give her the piece of paper that you put together; maybe that will help.
Salaams, peace
Salaam IMQ
And where do you read a word about hair in the Qur'an? The Head scarf is a cultural issue, whereas covering your breasts is clearly prescribed in the Holy Book.
However covering ones hair has become such a big issue that often you would see some women covering their head while leaving boobs not properly covered as advised in The Quran. Many believe that covering their head makes them righteous, whilst it's certainly not a sign of piety but rather of conformity.Best regards
farida -
Salaam OPF,
Im not exactly sure what you are saying with all of this, but nevertheless I don't see it adding anything to the discussion of what 2431 says or doesn't say. Either way, I think I have explained my position thoroughly; unless you have something new to add to the discussion.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
I'm not suggesting anything other than that there can be weak conclusions drawn here.
Hardly in this case, because as I said
So there has to be something of a consensus here. Or you'll have a group of believers following their interpretation of 2431 and telling women to wear headscarves over their heads and chests, and another group telling women to pull their scarves over their chests alone. And this is quite an issue in sectarian circles and people do get killed over this trivial rubbish.
Exactly so, but that doesn't change anything.
That's not an issue at all though, it has no logical connection to what needs clarification here. Of course a headscarf is mentioned, what is NOT mentioned is that the headscarf must be on the head. Just because it's called a headscarf doesn't mean it can only be used on the head or MUST be used on the head.
Where is that post? In any case, it's very hard to judge how important this ayat would be in reality because there are too many variables, but considering the quran only dedicates a single verse and even then, weakly implies it (if it even does, which I find it wouldn't) it doesn't really make a case for it.
The verse assumes the women in question already have headscarves, what happens to women who don't already have headscarves? Somehow I doubt a cloth over the head or even over the chest qualifies a woman as "believing".
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Salaams farida,
Or are you just asking and mentioning random things to express your own personal opinion that isn't based from Al Quran?
Salaams, peace
Salaam IMQ
Did you read the whole thread and study what was given by the two sides?
Not really! As this subject is the least interesting to me. I prefer to concentrate on wider issues.
Best regards
farida -
I just can not understand why most men think it?s their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to women?s issues?
That's because men being pervs is the woman's fault! >
We need to hide them, so us men won't be seduced !
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Salaam OPF
You took the words out of my mouth, there are so many verses of Qur?an which end on warning of grievous punishment, painful doom, painful torment., tremendous trial, and in the Hereafter, an awful doom etc. whereas Surah 2432 ends on this note And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed
I just can not understand why most men think it?s their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to women?s issues?
The covering of the head is not the beginning nor is it the end nor is it an open sin and men would certainly not be questioned about it as none can carry the load of another.
Best regards
faridaYou are correct that we should not leave other issues and just start pressing on the issue of women's dress code; but the reality is reality and we must face it if we believe to be Muslims then we must submitt to what is being commanded.
However for IQO; when I said we must look into culture and background for why the specific command was ordered and weather is it necessary now? and you replied with "Quranic commands do not change"; I donot agree with your reply.we may have a detailed discussion regarding the issue if time permits.
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Peace,
Ok, I have no lexicon, but I have read many times that sister Samia has explained that khimar in the lexicon is used for many things. Khimar is some kind of cloth that can cover ex. a table, a window, a body, or something else. And Quran says that women shall cover their breast with a cloth(khimar).
So a woman can take a piece of cloth like a big scarves and hang over her shoulder, why wrap it around her head?Maria
Dear Maria
When The word "Khimaar' is used for• 1;woman it EXCLUSIVELY means head cover
2any other thing then it is a cover (not necessarily that of cloth)
•
Taajul Aroos says
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From second definition which you are using "Khimaar " can be anycover of anything.The cover of manhole is also a khimaar.Are the women ordered to cover the breasts with
1;Bed covers
2;Windowpanes
3;curtains
4;Iron covers
5;wooden covers
But NOT HEADSCARF (ACCORDING TO YOU) -
If you have bared breasts (either partially or fully) and you pull your headcover down (while its still on your head) to cover those exposed breasts, it is by no means an effective covering for those breasts -- no matter how you want to argue the point.
Do you truly believe that this understanding is the best advice God has to offer on the topic of exposed breasts/chests/crevices/etc/etc ?
Unless, of course you're the Saudi scholar mentioned above!