Face cover: God's only flaw?

[ImamQuranonly]

Salaam OPF

You took the words out of my mouth, there are so many verses of Qur?an which end on warning of grievous punishment, painful doom, painful torment., tremendous trial, and in the Hereafter, an awful doom etc. whereas Surah 2432 ends on this note And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed

I just can not understand why most men think it?s their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to women?s issues?

The covering of the head is not the beginning nor is it the end nor is it an open sin and men would certainly not be questioned about it as none can carry the load of another.

Best regards
farida

Nor is this the only thread on this HUGE LARGE forum. To suggest that is ignoring thousands of other threads and posts. The whole of Quran is up for discussion by everyone here...not just men's issues for men and women issues for women.

Maybe you missed this point previously

Salaams,

Women should adopt the style of dress that Allah tells them to, if they have faith in following the guidance that Allah gives. If so, they would prefer what Allah gives over what they desire themselves. So they would follow it to the best of their understanding at any given time. In the Jewish and Christian scriptures as well as the muslim scriptures, there has always been something to describe the dress code of women to distinguish the believing women from the women population in general. I don't know why Allah likes to single out how women dress, I just recognize that He does. There are no ayaat in Al Quran, for whatever reason that Allah choose, that specify that mean should wear jilbab or khimar, or similiar. Allahu Alim.

Human beings, including believers fail to follow a lot of the guidance that Allah gives to us. Whatever one considers the dress code from Allah in Al Quran, no one can say that not adhering to it will cause one to go to Hellfire. One can only say that not adhering to it is disobedience, and Allah forgives a lot of disobedience. We are all disobedient in some way. So advising one of what Allah says to do is only so that someone will know, then it is up to them to obey or not; not for the one giving the message to condemn them to hellfire. Allah is the One who weighs on the Day of Judgement, and who determines what is forgiven or not forgiven.

As Salaamu Alaikum, peace

Best regards,
IQA

[ImamQuranonly]

Salaam,

And I repeat, read my post above and maybe stop acting like you determine who gets to discuss what from Al Quran! A word to the wise; it is better to stop trying to understand people and continue to try to understand Al Quran.

Best regards,
IQO

Salaam
I repeat there are so many verses of Qur?an which end on warning of grievous punishment, painful doom, painful torment., tremendous trial, and in the Hereafter, an awful doom etc. whereas Surah 2432 ends on this note And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed

I just can not understand why some men think it?s their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to women?s issues?

The covering of the head is not the beginning nor is it the end nor is it an open sin and men would certainly not be questioned about it as none can carry the load of another.
Best regards
farida

[dragonflies]

Thought I'd share this with you, it made my blood boil.

A friend told me today she'd been reading an article by a well known Saudi Scholar. Of course he already supports the traditional Saudi ideas of completely covering the face AND EYES completely with a veil and that the abaya should be worn from the head in case (shock horror!) an outline of a shoulder may be seen. He now believes that gloves are not enough and the woman should have a button on the sleeve of the abaya to close when not using the hands so the form of the fingers in the gloves can not be seen! .........

Does the madness have any limits ???

brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall

[unknownuser]

Maybe you missed this part

So SOMETHING that was ALREADY there is told to use to SPREAD over the chest area. Spread means to keep where it is and cover additional area in this sense.

And maybe you missed this part

And who said that Allah revealed the ayats about women's dress because of sexual gratification/repression/excitement or anything of that nature? Surely it is not mentioned in those ayaat that this is the reason for the commandment!

As Salaamu Alaikum, peace

This is a big thread and yes I did miss those. But what you quoted from Samia simply states what I said

The usage of this very verb in the context of our verse clearly means spread your "scarf, cover..whatever" on your bosoms. To do this, one has to move it from the head (if it is even there) and put it on the bosom. The bosom has the priority over the head in being covered.

Then

So SOMETHING that was ALREADY there is told to use to SPREAD over the chest area. Spread means to keep where it is and cover additional area in this sense.

That's true provided it means spread and spread alone. That still doesn't change that any such command to wear the headscarf in this verse is weak because it uses passive language - in other verses of the quran there is a CLEAR command to do this or that.

And who said that Allah revealed the ayats about women's dress because of sexual gratification/repression/excitement or anything of that nature? Surely it is not mentioned in those ayaat that this is the reason for the commandment!

I agree partly but breasts are sexually arousing and hence part of what needs to be covered and if you doubt that you have to be either Sentinelese or in a loony bin / nudist camp. Of course women must have covered up, leather strips or otherwise because that's what is depicted everywhere. We shouldn't even have to look at history to know so.

My whole point is, that there is no clear command (clear as in using active language) to take the covering and wrap it over the head. And in a quran which claims to be clear and fully detailed, such a weak conclusion just will not hold. Are there any other commands in the quran that are essential to follow but only have one verse to them?

[ImamQuranonly]

Thought I'd share this with you, it made my blood boil.

A friend told me today she'd been reading an article by a well known Saudi Scholar. Of course he already supports the traditional Saudi ideas of completely covering the face AND EYES completely with a veil and that the abaya should be worn from the head in case (shock horror!) an outline of a shoulder may be seen. He now believes that gloves are not enough and the woman should have a button on the sleeve of the abaya to close when not using the hands so the form of the fingers in the gloves can not be seen! .........

Does the madness have any limits ???

brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall

Now that's sad '( and down right funny rotfl all at the same time! ???

[unknownuser]

Thought I'd share this with you, it made my blood boil.

A friend told me today she'd been reading an article by a well known Saudi Scholar. Of course he already supports the traditional Saudi ideas of completely covering the face AND EYES completely with a veil and that the abaya should be worn from the head in case (shock horror!) an outline of a shoulder may be seen. He now believes that gloves are not enough and the woman should have a button on the sleeve of the abaya to close when not using the hands so the form of the fingers in the gloves can not be seen! .........

Does the madness have any limits ???

brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall

Great news for the camping industry ;D

Salaam OPF

You took the words out of my mouth, there are so many verses of Quran which end on warning of grievous punishment, painful doom, painful torment., tremendous trial, and in the Hereafter, an awful doom etc. whereas Surah 2432 ends on this note And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed

I just can not understand why most men think its their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to womens issues?

The covering of the head is not the beginning nor is it the end nor is it an open sin and men would certainly not be questioned about it as none can carry the load of another.

Best regards
farida

You also have to keep in mind that in 2434, God emphasises yet again that quranic commands are clear. I really can't imagine that such a significant command (the headscarf is arguably the most visible thing about 'islam' today) would only have one verse and be vaguely implied even then, it makes little sense.

As for the bold, you have to note that whatever is written between 2427 and 2432 is incumbent on all believers, men or women so it is every bit as men's business as it is women's, just as women have the right not to be gawked at by men (2430), men have the right to tell women to cover up in 2431.

It's definitely not the beginning or the end but it's a visible mark and has to be treated with a bit of caution. Also, applying the same logic used to deduce that the usage of headscarf MUST mean that women are told to cover up results in all sorts of ridiculous notions.

[ImamQuranonly]

That's true provided it means spread and spread alone. That still doesn't change that any such command to wear the headscarf in this verse is weak because it uses passive language - in other verses of the quran there is a CLEAR command to do this or that.

I agree partly but breasts are sexually arousing and hence part of what needs to be covered and if you doubt that you have to be either Sentinelese or in a loony bin / nudist camp. Of course women must have covered up, leather strips or otherwise because that's what is depicted everywhere. We shouldn't even have to look at history to know so.

My whole point is, that there is no clear command (clear as in using active language) to take the covering and wrap it over the head. And in a quran which claims to be clear and fully detailed, such a weak conclusion just will not hold. Are there any other commands in the quran that are essential to follow but only have one verse to them?

If it doesn't just mean SPREAD, then what else are you suggesting that it is saying?

I already stated that the command can be looked at in two different ways, and I gave my opinion as to why I understand it the way that I do. Everyone else is entitled to their, just remember the warning I gave also.

The ayat also speaks about the chest area or cleavage, not the breasts; those were already supposed to be covered by jilbaab.

A weak conclusion is the one that there is no mention of a headscarf in Al Quran.

You can read one of my recent posts to farida here about how essential it is to follow this ayat.

As Salaamu Alaikum, peace

[farida]

If it doesn't just mean SPREAD, then what else are you suggesting that it is saying?

I already stated that the command can be looked at in two different ways, and I gave my opinion as to why I understand it the way that I do. Everyone else is entitled to their, just remember the warning I gave also.

The ayat also speaks about the chest area or cleavage, not the breasts; those were already supposed to be covered by jilbaab.

A weak conclusion is the one that there is no mention of a headscarf in Al Quran.

You can read one of my recent posts to farida here about how essential it is to follow this ayat.

As Salaamu Alaikum, peace

Salaam IMQ

And where do you read a word about hair in the Qur'an? The Head scarf is a cultural issue, whereas covering your breasts is clearly prescribed in the Holy Book.
However covering ones hair has become such a big issue that often you would see some women covering their head while leaving boobs not properly covered as advised in The Quran. Many believe that covering their head makes them righteous, whilst it's certainly not a sign of piety but rather of conformity.

Best regards
farida

[unknownuser]

If it doesn't just mean SPREAD, then what else are you suggesting that it is saying?

I already stated that the command can be looked at in two different ways, and I gave my opinion as to why I understand it the way that I do. Everyone else is entitled to their, just remember the warning I gave also.

The ayat also speaks about the chest area or cleavage, not the breasts; those were already supposed to be covered by jilbaab.

A weak conclusion is the one that there is no mention of a headscarf in Al Quran.

You can read one of my recent posts to farida here about how essential it is to follow this ayat.

As Salaamu Alaikum, peace

I'm not suggesting anything other than that there can be weak conclusions drawn here.

I already stated that the command can be looked at in two different ways, and I gave my opinion as to why I understand it the way that I do. Everyone else is entitled to their, just remember the warning I gave also.

Hardly in this case, because as I said

you have to note that whatever is written between 2427 and 2432 is incumbent on all believers, men or women so it is every bit as men's business as it is women's, just as women have the right not to be gawked at by men (2430), men have the right to tell women to cover up in 2431.

So there has to be something of a consensus here. Or you'll have a group of believers following their interpretation of 2431 and telling women to wear headscarves over their heads and chests, and another group telling women to pull their scarves over their chests alone. And this is quite an issue in sectarian circles and people do get killed over this trivial rubbish.

The ayat also speaks about the chest area or cleavage, not the breasts; those were already supposed to be covered by jilbaab.

Exactly so, but that doesn't change anything.

A weak conclusion is the one that there is no mention of a headscarf in Al Quran.

That's not an issue at all though, it has no logical connection to what needs clarification here. Of course a headscarf is mentioned, what is NOT mentioned is that the headscarf must be on the head. Just because it's called a headscarf doesn't mean it can only be used on the head or MUST be used on the head.

You can read one of my recent posts to farida here about how essential it is to follow this ayat.

Where is that post? In any case, it's very hard to judge how important this ayat would be in reality because there are too many variables, but considering the quran only dedicates a single verse and even then, weakly implies it (if it even does, which I find it wouldn't) it doesn't really make a case for it.

The verse assumes the women in question already have headscarves, what happens to women who don't already have headscarves? Somehow I doubt a cloth over the head or even over the chest qualifies a woman as "believing".

[ImamQuranonly]

Salaams farida,

Did you read the whole thread and study what was given by the two sides? Or are you just asking and mentioning random things to express your own personal opinion that isn't based from Al Quran?

Maybe those who do the things you mention would be better served to understand the ayat as I have continously explained in here. Make a summary of my posts in your own words on a piece of paper, and the next time you see a woman not wearing it for the right purpose, just give her the piece of paper that you put together; maybe that will help.

Salaams, peace

Salaam IMQ

And where do you read a word about hair in the Qur'an? The Head scarf is a cultural issue, whereas covering your breasts is clearly prescribed in the Holy Book.
However covering ones hair has become such a big issue that often you would see some women covering their head while leaving boobs not properly covered as advised in The Quran. Many believe that covering their head makes them righteous, whilst it's certainly not a sign of piety but rather of conformity.

Best regards
farida

[ImamQuranonly]

Salaam OPF,

Im not exactly sure what you are saying with all of this, but nevertheless I don't see it adding anything to the discussion of what 2431 says or doesn't say. Either way, I think I have explained my position thoroughly; unless you have something new to add to the discussion.

As Salaamu Alaikum, peace

I'm not suggesting anything other than that there can be weak conclusions drawn here.

Hardly in this case, because as I said

So there has to be something of a consensus here. Or you'll have a group of believers following their interpretation of 2431 and telling women to wear headscarves over their heads and chests, and another group telling women to pull their scarves over their chests alone. And this is quite an issue in sectarian circles and people do get killed over this trivial rubbish.

Exactly so, but that doesn't change anything.

That's not an issue at all though, it has no logical connection to what needs clarification here. Of course a headscarf is mentioned, what is NOT mentioned is that the headscarf must be on the head. Just because it's called a headscarf doesn't mean it can only be used on the head or MUST be used on the head.

Where is that post? In any case, it's very hard to judge how important this ayat would be in reality because there are too many variables, but considering the quran only dedicates a single verse and even then, weakly implies it (if it even does, which I find it wouldn't) it doesn't really make a case for it.

The verse assumes the women in question already have headscarves, what happens to women who don't already have headscarves? Somehow I doubt a cloth over the head or even over the chest qualifies a woman as "believing".

[farida]

Salaams farida,

Or are you just asking and mentioning random things to express your own personal opinion that isn't based from Al Quran?

Salaams, peace

Salaam IMQ

Did you read the whole thread and study what was given by the two sides?

Not really! As this subject is the least interesting to me. I prefer to concentrate on wider issues.

Best regards
farida

[Jack]

I just can not understand why most men think it?s their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to women?s issues?

That's because men being pervs is the woman's fault! >

We need to hide them, so us men won't be seduced !

[Raj-ah]

Salaam OPF

You took the words out of my mouth, there are so many verses of Qur?an which end on warning of grievous punishment, painful doom, painful torment., tremendous trial, and in the Hereafter, an awful doom etc. whereas Surah 2432 ends on this note And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed

I just can not understand why most men think it?s their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to women?s issues?

The covering of the head is not the beginning nor is it the end nor is it an open sin and men would certainly not be questioned about it as none can carry the load of another.

Best regards
farida

You are correct that we should not leave other issues and just start pressing on the issue of women's dress code; but the reality is reality and we must face it if we believe to be Muslims then we must submitt to what is being commanded.
However for IQO; when I said we must look into culture and background for why the specific command was ordered and weather is it necessary now? and you replied with "Quranic commands do not change"; I donot agree with your reply.

we may have a detailed discussion regarding the issue if time permits.

[Al-Quran_only]

Peace,

Ok, I have no lexicon, but I have read many times that sister Samia has explained that khimar in the lexicon is used for many things. Khimar is some kind of cloth that can cover ex. a table, a window, a body, or something else. And Quran says that women shall cover their breast with a cloth(khimar).
So a woman can take a piece of cloth like a big scarves and hang over her shoulder, why wrap it around her head?

Maria

Dear Maria
When The word "Khimaar' is used for

• 1;woman it EXCLUSIVELY means head cover

2any other thing then it is a cover (not necessarily that of cloth)

•

Taajul Aroos says

• ( 1 / 2785)

From second definition which you are using "Khimaar " can be anycover of anything.The cover of manhole is also a khimaar.Are the women ordered to cover the breasts with
1;Bed covers
2;Windowpanes
3;curtains
4;Iron covers
5;wooden covers
But NOT HEADSCARF (ACCORDING TO YOU)

[ILisa]

If you have bared breasts (either partially or fully) and you pull your headcover down (while its still on your head) to cover those exposed breasts, it is by no means an effective covering for those breasts -- no matter how you want to argue the point.

Do you truly believe that this understanding is the best advice God has to offer on the topic of exposed breasts/chests/crevices/etc/etc ?

Unless, of course you're the Saudi scholar mentioned above!

[ILisa]

Greetings Wakas,

Thanks. handshake

But even safety pins wouldn't help that much. I know from experience that it still is quite awkward if you have any degree of flesh showing that needs covering. The headscarf used to compensate for a blouse that has either a low cut neckline or in some other way exposes too much skin, never stays properly in the ideal place for maximum coverage and you will always end up finding yourself over-exposed.

[Wakas]

peace ILisa, all,

(edited post)

I originally thought if you lowered a head cover to cover your chest (but still covering the head) the result wouldn't be great, i.e. it would still be semi-loose, but after thinking about it, it could be done with one fastener / safety-pin / etc and would probably do. Like a headband for the head cover part (like the male Arabs wear now) and pulling either side of the cloth around the front, overlaping, and one fastener / rope / safety-pin / etc.

And before anyone says anything, I'm not saying there is a head cover or there isn't, I'm simply discussing the possibilities.

[Raj-ah]

Ilisa

Greetings Wakas,

Thanks.

But even safety pins wouldn't help that much. I know from experience that it still is quite awkward if you have any degree of flesh showing that needs covering. The headscarf used to compensate for a blouse that has either a low cut neckline or in some other way exposes too much skin, never stays properly in the ideal place for maximum coverage and you will always end up finding yourself over-exposed.

Half Mullah is always dangerous.
Dear Ilisa it is understood that we all wear some cloths so did the adresssee of Quran at that time, and over those cloths we are told to expand the head scarf, in order to cover the Bossoms because they were and are the attractive parts for most of the opposite sex. What you are assuming is that breasts are naked and that is not the case.

Say to the believing men that they should guard their gaze and cover their private parts. This is purer for them. And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should guard their gaze and cover their private parts; that they should not display their ornaments except what appear thereof; that they should draw their head covering over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands? fathers, their sons, their husbands? sons, their brothers or their brothers? sons, or their sisters? sons or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments (Bossoms). And O you who believe turn you all together towards Allah that you may succeed. (2430-31) "

Now let us see what HAdith says, amazingly you can find a HAdith in support only in Abu Daud

'Aisha said Asthma', daughter of Abu Bakr, entered upon the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) wearing thin clothes. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) turned his attention from her. He said O Asthma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of the body except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands.

Even in this Hadith no covering of Hands and Face. Then Abu Dawud said This is a mursal tradition meaning this is a weak Hadith.

the words used by the Qur?an are such that one is inclined towards believing that the Qur?an wants Muslim women to cover their heads when they have to interact with men and the logical reason for this is as said by Learner
The Words "They should spread their head coverings over their bosoms", in my opinion, imply that the piece of cloth used as head coverings should be spread over the bosom while keeping the head covered. If the Qur?an wanted women to cover only their bosoms with a piece of cloth, I think it would then have been more appropriate to give the directive without any reference to the head coverings. It seems that Arab women used to cover their heads with a long piece of cloth let the sides of that cloth hang behind them. What the Qur?an has directed them to do in the referred verse is to cover their bosoms with that part of their head coverings which was left hanging.

The Reason I said while replying to IQO that the history and culture are very important for understanding books like Quran.
The reference to the dress of the Arab women is concerned here, the Arab women was the first addressee of the Qur?an, and the Qur?an gave its directives regarding women?s covering keeping her in perspective, it is therefore essential to know what was the dressing of the Arab women, in general. This does not mean that the style of dress worn by the Arab woman is an Islamic standard, but that the coverings of the Arab woman are the perspective in which the Qur?an has given its directive. This covering, in the words "Women (who already had their heads, arms and legs covered) should observe?".

So do you understand dear Ilisa.

I don't see any benefit to Allah if the women is dressed modestly, or Men keep their gaze low, offcourse like all other laws it is for the betterment of society, and if the society you live in have some other laws as long as within framework of Quran, you may observe it. For example the Quran here is talking about slaves in this very verse, is slavery existing today? near to Zero the kind of it was at that time, so this word is useless at this time of point, but was very important at that point of time, simialarly we should understand that Quran was addressing to some living people who had a Culture, customs and history which is quite different from know.

I mean to say the main idea for the dress should be from Quran; it should be modest; but the details should be decided by the culture and environment of the place living in. In India many Hindu women cover their Bossoms by a cloth called "Dopata" at the same time using it as head covering.

[ILisa]

Ilisa
Half Mullah is always dangerous.

Just because I made an observational comment, based on my previous experience you feel comfortable calling me a 'Half Mullah'?? I thought this was a forum for discussion, not fatwas.

What the Qur?an has directed them to do in the referred verse is to cover their bosoms with that part of their head coverings which was left hanging.

This is one interpretation.

it is therefore essential to know what was the dressing of the Arab women, in general.

This covering, in the words "Women (who already had their heads, arms and legs covered) should observe?".

Interesting for someone who's just called me a 'half mullah' to put a meaning altering phrase in parathases as you have done here for a passage from the Qur'an.

So do you understand dear Ilisa.

Perhaps more than you shall ever know....

In India many Hindu women cover their Bossoms by a cloth called "Dopata" at the same time using it as head covering.

Don't they cover their heads with a cloth that is first wrapped around their bodies instead of the other way around?? That makes a big difference in terms of coverage-ability.