salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...

Wakas

peace explorer,

My position is that the regular/timed "salat" is only upon the mumineen/believers.

And yes, my position is still that according to chapter 9, non-believers can uphold/maintain the "salat". This can confuse some, however, if you read my articles all should become clear

http//mypercept.co.uk/slw.htm (an introductory article to the basic concept)
http//mypercept.co.uk/quran_on_salat.htm (reasonably comprehensive list of additional information)
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm (a discussion on chapter 9's pivotal usage)

Jack

Peace Wakas,

This method of salat makes a lot of sense, just one question though (for now)...

In 9122

Progressive Muslims"
And it is not for the believers to march out in their entirety. For every battalion that marches out, let a group remain to study the system, and warn their people when they return to them, perhaps they will be aware.

If part of our salat is to be studying/reflecting etc.. why would people need to stay behind to study the deen and remind the others?

What's your view on this sign?

unknownuser

Peace Wakas,

This method of salat makes a lot of sense, just one question though (for now)...

In 9122

Progressive Muslims"
And it is not for the believers to march out in their entirety. For every battalion that marches out, let a group remain to study the system, and warn their people when they return to them, perhaps they will be aware.

If part of our salat is to be studying/reflecting etc.. why would people need to stay behind to study the deen and remind the others?

What's your view on this sign?

War strategy perhaps? Consider that in another quranic verse it instructs believers to strike at the enemy's command centres.

Jack

Peace OPF,

First, this thread is regarding this article(not sure/making sure you know that). Without reading that article, you may not know what I am taking about.

http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm

Secondly, The ones staying behind are 'studying the deen' literally. I don't think that qualifies as war strategy.

unknownuser

Peace OPF,

First, this thread is regarding this article(not sure/making sure you know that). Without reading that article, you may not know what I am taking about.

http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm

Secondly, The ones staying behind are 'studying the deen' literally. I don't think that qualifies as war strategy.

What is the 'deen'?

Jack

Usually translated as 'religion' but the better word for it is 'system'. FM uses 'system'.

Example, see how it's used in 2256 (no compulsion in al-deen)and 4213 (...the same 'deen'...).

= Dal-Ya-Nun = obedience/submissiveness, servility, religion, high/elevated/noble/glorious rank/condition/state, took/receive a loan or borrowed upon credit, become indebted, in debt, under the obligation of a debt, contract a debt, repay/reimburse a loan, rule/govern/manage it, possess/own it, become habituated/accustomed to something, confirmation, death (because it is a debt everyone must pay), a particular law/statute, system, custom/habit/business, a way/course/manner of conduct/acting, repayment/compensation.

dana vb. (I)
impf. act. 929
pcple. pass. 3753, 5686

dayn n.m. 2282, 411, 412, 412, 412

din n.m. 14, 2132, 2193, 2217, 2217, 2256, 319, 324, 373, 383, 385, 446, 4125, 4146, 4171, 53, 53, 53, 554, 557, 577, 670, 6137, 6159, 6161, 729, 751, 839, 849, 872, 911, 912, 929, 933, 933, 936, 9122, 1022, 10104, 10105, 1240, 1276, 1535, 1652, 2278, 242, 2425, 2455, 2682, 2965, 3030, 3030, 3032, 3043, 3132, 335, 3720, 3878, 392, 393, 3911, 3914, 4014, 4026, 4065, 4213, 4213, 4221, 4828, 4828, 4916, 516, 5112, 5656, 608, 609, 619, 619, 7026, 7446, 829, 8215, 8217, 8218, 8311, 957, 985, 985, 1071, 1096, 1096, 1102,

tadayana vb. (VI) perf. act. 2282

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, pages 108, 109, 110, 111, 112

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

YahTayVoleem

Peace.

My question for Wakas Have you read Layth's new article on Salat?

If so, how does your view differ from his?

What parts if any do you think are missing from Layth's article?

My question for Layth Have you read Wakas' article on Salat?

If so, how does your view differ from his?

What parts if any do you think are missing from Wakas' article?

Thoughts......

I have read both articles and I am wondering.....what is the real difference between the two thoughts processes?

I understand from Wakas' article that salat is not prayer, but I also understand from Layth's article what salat is... and how to... on a practical basis...implement that in my life.

But is there someway that we can combine both articles to give a more clear picture? Is there someway we can come together as brothers and sisters in the deen? We need to unite...I am asking in the name of God, The Almighty, The Merciful...for uniting on the parts of Layth and Wakas in regards to the salat issue, and come up with a unified article on the issue.

Wakas tells you what Salat isn't and Layth tells you what Salat is...why couldn't we combine them and perhaps expand on it, and maybe come up with a unifed article that could be produced, God willing, down the road... as a small salat leaflet or booklet?

I have the technological ability and software needed to be involved in that if needed. I am also willing to contribute financially if need be as much as I can afford, God willing.

I have been here under many names for the past three years or more, and have gone through the learning process with both brothers, and now is the time I stand up and say we need to unite our understanding of salat. I feel we are so close, yet we need some sort of document that is the standard. I will not accept the comments that drag the process down. We WILL God willing, have a central unified understanding on salat, God willing. Then this when done needs to be the only article on the article section and if people want to debate it or come up with other ideas that is why we have the forum section where people could debate it. Make sense?

Please comment.

YTV

P.S. I love you ALL....for the sake of God and whatever it is you need feel free to ask anytime..and God willing whatever I can contribute I will, God willing.

YTV

Wakas

peace HMD, YTV, all,

Re 9122

I have not studied the context and cross-referenced it but from 9122 the timeframe cant be judged. For example, they may be setting out to battle immeditaely or in the next few hours, i.e. there is no time for salat al fajr / salat al esha etc. As a side note, there is a sign that discusses the prophet setting out at dawn (to battle?) and there is a sign discussing a salat during a time of fear, limited time, so these events may be connected.

Re Layth's article

I responded to it here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14843.15
As I stated in the above thread, the direction of the article is ok, but the core premise is built upon an unverifiable point.

HMD, referenced one slw article, but the others which I referenced prior in this thread should be read in conjunction with it.

Alen

Peace.
My question for Wakas Have you read Layth's new article on Salat?
If so, how does your view differ from his?
What parts if any do you think are missing from Layth's article?
My question for Layth Have you read Wakas' article on Salat?
If so, how does your view differ from his?
What parts if any do you think are missing from Wakas' article?
Thoughts......
I have read both articles and I am wondering.....what is the real difference between the two thoughts processes?
I understand from Wakas' article that salat is not prayer, but I also understand from Layth's article what salat is... and how to... on a practical basis...implement that in my life.
But is there someway that we can combine both articles to give a more clear picture? Is there someway we can come together as brothers and sisters in the deen? We need to unite...I am asking in the name of God, The Almighty, The Merciful...for uniting on the parts of Layth and Wakas in regards to the salat issue, and come up with a unified article on the issue.
Wakas tells you what Salat isn't and Layth tells you what Salat is...why couldn't we combine them and perhaps expand on it, and maybe come up with a unifed article that could be produced, God willing, down the road... as a small salat leaflet or booklet?

I have the technological ability and software needed to be involved in that if needed. I am also willing to contribute financially if need be as much as I can afford, God willing.
I have been here under many names for the past three years or more, and have gone through the learning process with both brothers, and now is the time I stand up and say we need to unite our understanding of salat. I feel we are so close, yet we need some sort of document that is the standard. I will not accept the comments that drag the process down. We WILL God willing, have a central unified understanding on salat, God willing. Then this when done needs to be the only article on the article section and if people want to debate it or come up with other ideas that is why we have the forum section where people could debate it. Make sense?
Please comment.
YTV
P.S. I love you ALL....for the sake of God and whatever it is you need feel free to ask anytime..and God willing whatever I can contribute I will, God willing.
YTV

Salam,
Respectfully.

I agree and i am also willing to help in any way that i can, God willing.
Many times have i been asking many questions regarding the prayer and i wold love to join the debate and the search, God willing.

Allah Ellem.

Peace.

Wakas

If anyone wishes to help, it's really simple. I am constantly involved in islam/quran projects. Contact me if interested.

YahTayVoleem

Peace.

I previously read the articles about salat from layth and wakas....now I have come across the submitter perspective....now I am even more confused.....

they say 7431 over it is nineteen.....etc etc and I have checked and rechecked the numbers for salat and it does add up right...

24434 is a multiple of 19 (1286x19)

so I wonder if anyone layth or wakas has come across that information....

and if so how did they disregard it as false and on what basis...

I am a bit perplexed.....

seems once a person gets a firm handle on what they belive a new twist comes along.....

YTV

Wakas

peace YTV,

submission.org articles were actually the first ones I read on "salat" a long time ago, so I am familliar with what they say. Personally, I do not use code-19 to validate non-Quranic info.

As a side note, if anyone is confused about "salat" or any concept for that matter, simply study it from al quran itself. The tools are available online now and it has never been easier. This methodology is very effective, as there is nothing more powerful than seeing the truth for yourself.

www.studyquran.org

YahTayVoleem

Peace.

I appreciate your prompt reply to my post. I am wondering what is the root I should be looking up?

Any assistance would be highly appreciated.

YTV

Jack

= Sad-Lam-Waw

Please don't hesitate to message me, if you have any further questions.

peace

Wakas

Read from 830-40 and compare with 91-19.

Very interesting comparison. It seems these two passages refer to the same events.

Jack

Good connection. Both passages speak of the restricted masjid, the house, etc.

How do you understand the salat in 835 vs. 911?

Wakas

How do you understand the salat in 835 vs. 911?

From http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
Chapter 9

An acquittal/release from The God and His messenger to those with whom you made a treaty from among the polytheists.
Therefore, roam the earth for four months and know that you will not escape The God, and that The God will disgrace the ungrateful/rejecters.
And an announcement from The God and His messenger to the people on the greatest/peak day of the conference/symposium "The God is quit/free from the polytheists and so is His messenger". If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape The God. And give news to those who conceal/reject of a painful retribution.
Except for those with whom you had a treaty from among the polytheists if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they plan to attack you; you shall continue the treaty with them until its expiry. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious.
So when the restricted months are passed, then you may fight the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then clear/vacate their way/path. Truly, The God is Turning/Forgiving, Embracing/Merciful.
And if anyone from the polytheists seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the word of The God, then deliver him to his safety/security. This is because they are a people who do not know.
How can those polytheists have a pledge/agreement with The God and His messenger, except for those with whom you made a pledge/agreement at the institute of acknowledging the restriction? As long as they are straight with you, then you are straight with them. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious.
How is it when they gain the upper-hand they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts are hostile, and most of them are wicked.
They purchased with The God's signs/revelations a small gain, so they could turn others from His path. Truly, evil is what they were doing.
They do not respect believers, nor a kinship, nor a pledge. These are the transgressors/wrongdoers.
But if they repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then they are your brothers/allies in the obligation/system. We detail/explain our signs/revelations for a people who know.
And if they break their oaths after making them, and they assail (cause damage) in your obligation/system; then you may fight the chiefs of ungratefulness/rejection. Truly, their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then stop.

835
And their bond at the house was nothing but noise/whistling and clapping/aversion/deception. Taste the retribution for what you have rejected.

Interestingly, when two groups sign a treaty, make a public pledge etc, it is usually followed by group applause, celebratory noise etc in this case possible whistling and clapping. And since it says their bond/salat was nothing but this, this implies the actual pledge/bond aspect was meaningless, which makes it a fit.

Also, note the accuracy of usage of KFR in both passages.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace Wakas,

911 But if they repent, and uphold the salat and bring forth the betterment, then they are your brothers in the system. We explain our signs for a people who know.

Don't you think that they became believers, based on the above verse?

Wakas

p1993,

To answer your question, I have a radical idea, how about actually reading the referenced link in my last post? I wrote the article several years ago, and as far as I'm aware, no-one has written a rebuttal. The correlation between 830-40 adds more evidence to my view. I recommend reading them several times each, e.g read 839 in conjunction with 911.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

p1993,

To answer your question, I have a radical idea, how about actually reading the referenced link in my last post? I wrote the article several years ago, and as far as I'm aware, no-one has written a rebuttal. The correlation between 830-40 adds more evidence to my view. I recommend reading them several times each, e.g read 839 in conjunction with 911.

I agree with you that 95-6 has nothing to do with ritual prayer, since it is talking about 'mushriks' holding the salat, whereas the salat as in reading the reading/quran at dawn and in the evening together with praising God, etc. is for the mumins.

In 911 it is different, since it talks about them being 'brothers in the system'.

I also agree with you that repentance does not mean 'conversion' (and definitely not in 95-6), but 911 talks about repentance AND them being brothers in the system. 912 says that if they violate their oaths and attack our system (ie. turn back to their old ways), then we may fight them. It is also significant that it uses 'the system' in 911 and 'your system' in 912, showing a change - they no longer are part of the system.

I also agree with you that 'salat' means 'bond'. Oath is a possibility, but there is already a word for that one used 'ayman'/'aymanahum'. 'Ties' and 'pledge' are also used in 97 and 910, which are similar-meaning words.

The contrast between "uphold the salat" + "bring forth the betterment" and "break their oaths after making them" + "they assail (cause damage) in your obligation/system" is quite interesting.

If there was no 'then they are brothers in your system' and no changing of 'the system' to 'your system' I would totally agree with you in your understanding. The meaning of 'bond', 'bonding', etc. for salat and its derivatives is applicable for all/nearly all verses in the reading/quran, IMO.

I dont think that 95 is the same as/similar/talks about "the same 'salat'" as in 911/as described in 911.

I think the situation in chapter 8 is more likely to be the 'prayer-like salat' (ie. not oath).

834 Why should God not punish them when they are turning others away from the inviolable institution/place of obedience/temple, and they were never its protectors! Its protectors are the righteous. But most of them do not know.

835 Their salat at the house/sanctuary was nothing but deception/noise and aversion. Taste the retribution for what you have rejected.

Edip-Layth - End Note 3 (835)
"The Quran informs us that the practices of Islam were initially revealed to Abraham. Abraham and his followers were observing the sala prayer (2173). Meccan polytheists never accepted that they were polytheists (623,148; 1635). Since they believed in the intercession of some holy people, and since they falsely attributed numerous prohibitions and rules to God, the Quran considered them polytheists..."