What Edip Is Trying To Tell Us?
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Salaam Raj-ah
First of all, about headcover, it is a difference in understanding the quraan, not a rejection of it. I do not think anyone who discussed on the many threads of "khimaar" uttered the word "civilization" or even "practicability" of the headcover. I have lived at a time when headcover was not an issue at all. I was even a memeber of the muslim brotherhood, and headcover was not an issue either. I never wore a headcover (apart from our sari-like national dress) which is not accepted as headcover in Saudi Arabia then and in Sudan now! It became an issue after the influx of immigrants from Arab countries and the sub continent to SA multiplied in folds, bringing back to their countries many habits and ways of life from there.
As for Dr Wadud, I do not know your source. She has only one published book, (Quraan and Woman), which reflects her concern the position of women in the quraan. I translated this book and submitted the translation to Lazhar, with the original English. It was researched by the council of Islamic research, and they approved it. The method of the book, as she stated it, is to "read the quraan through the eys of the Author". The whole book is void of any comparison between civilizations or any understanding based on any civilization. The reader would not even know where she comes from (I personally thought she was Malaysian). Dr. Wadud was never known in Muslim circles in general and in Arab countries in particular, until she lead the prayers in New York, more than ten years after the publishing of her only book. I wonder if she would be concerned about cutting the hands of the thief, since this is not practiced in her country, The USA.
AND she wears the headscarf.A lot of baseless rumours are spread to tarnish her personality because of her stand about women in Islam. Nobody read her book, nobody knew she lead the prayers in South Africa ten years prior to the last one. She is not a person to appear on the media or to give speeches, except by Algezira after leading the prayers, and no scholar who questioned her was able to refute her knowledge about the matter. Later on, and for the first time, Lazhar admitted that women can lead countries.
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Layth
Rajah...I honestly don`t think you have read or even followed my threads or posts or even articles else you would not be asking me these strange questions!
No, I have read you and I like you that is why I am here and discussing you; but at the same time I want to be clarified from a person who has increasing followers, I want to know about his thoughts regarding Islam, see it is not only me who has this observations, Edip and many others have the same observations; and if you cleared them up, at least I can have a clear picture of a person who is trying hard for Islam.
One last Question if you don't mind
Do you ever left Islam and became an atheist? What made you leave Islam? and why were you back to Islam with new energy, because during your leaving of Islam, you had some contacts with the people who hate Islam and then suddenly you were back in Islam this casts some doubts on your credibility?
The source for above is Walid Shoebat.
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Samia
As for Dr Wadud, I do not know your source
Dr. Kaukab Siddique
Dr. W. made a deliberate attempt to divide Arabs from Africans. She took out her hair, showed it to her audience and claimed that her Arab audience did not respect her because she is a "black person" . This was a deliberate provocation which Bush and all the enemies of Islam would love.Samia
I wonder if she would be concerned about cutting the hands of the thief, since this is not practiced in her country, The USA.
Dr. Wadud
I chose that example to make my point about Qur??nic interpretation because I thought that it was an example that many people could agree with
it. Alas, when one looks at some of the comments posted on MWU, one realizes that, in fact, many Muslims believe that it is inappropriate to say ?no? to certain ?problematic? articulations of the Qur??n. They claim that it is inappropriate even though the principles behind such Qur??nic verses might have been given a certain form relative to the context in which the Qur??n was being revealed in seventh century Arabia, where a particular kind of punishment was customarily used to punish thieves. We now have other ways to punish thieves. We now also have other understandings and perspectives about the treatment of women to how women were customarily treated in seventh century Arabia.
I am proud to say that I believe in Allah, that I believe in the words of Allah and that I believe in the example of the Prophet (s).Dr. Amina's words as quoted below
"As for "no" to the Qur'an, let me summarize the work I have been doing to overcome some of the apologia of Qur'an and Woman. Yes, the Qur'an I believe and love is considered a form of Allah's self disclosure, but I do not believe God is locked into the 7th century Arabian context with its limitations based on coherency in that context, including Arabic to have a universal underpinning of TRUTH, justice and love.
I accept every word as sent by revelation from Allah to the Holy Prophet whose own example embodied and demonstrated those underpinning universal (he never literally beat any of his wives, for example). When I say "no" it is not the integrity of the literal text, it is to the implementation of some practices which is a 14 centuries long debate. That is why the jurist "set conditions upon" things like "beating" and "cutting". I consider that an interpretive intervention. Other interpretive interventions, like Qur'an and woman encourage the polysemic nature of reading and understanding and offer egalitarian interpretations against patriarchal ones, with no ONE having the final word. That belongs only to Allah and Allahu A'lam. But now I wish to point more directly that anything other than literal reading is a demonstration of agency to Allah, working in concert with the text, as words and intent to sustain the underlying principles and values, such that today, the Qur'anic approval of Slavery, for example IS NOT IMPLEMENTED. I wish to state my acceptance of certain problematic moral practices but with out and out refusal to implement them. AND to stop lying to make other people feel comfortable, I say so
After reading her own words I think you will not call it baseless rumors.
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Raj-ah
I really don't see how you understand this as "She claimed that she can decide which texts of the Qur'an are acceptable within the realm of "civilization" and which are not". What she is saying is clearly a criticism of holding as divine the interpretation of the quran by people who live in the seventh century. Who does not agree?
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Samia
First of all, about headcover, it is a difference in understanding the quraan, not a rejection of it
How can be their difference of understanding in Quran in this particular verse, unless and until you deliberately want to change it.
The word used for 'head covering' in this ayat is 'Khumr'. In Arabic this word is specifically and only used for the head covering cloth, you should now this better then me. If God did not mean to direct towards the observance of head covering, usage of such a word seems unnecessary and a cause for confusion, charateristics that the word of God certainly do not possess.
The fact that this word is used and no other is in itself a pointer towards head covering.
Now my stance on this is that it was clear cut order by Allah for the women of that time and by studying the history and culture this confirms, but since it was for a particular time as there are many other ayats as pointed out by me from time to time, we must by Ijtihad allow ourselves to decide it what is modest dress for ourselves within the frame work of Quran."End of the story" as sweet Majidah states.
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Peace,
No, I have read you and I like you that is why I am here and discussing you; but at the same time I want to be clarified from a person who has increasing followers, I want to know about his thoughts regarding Islam, see it is not only me who has this observations, Edip and many others have the same observations; and if you cleared them up, at least I can have a clear picture of a person who is trying hard for Islam.
What clarifications are you looking for? Be specific and I will try my best to answer.
One last Question if you don't mind
Do you ever left Islam and became an atheist? What made you leave Islam? and why were you back to Islam with new energy, because during your leaving of Islam, you had some contacts with the people who hate Islam and then suddenly you were back in Islam this casts some doubts on your credibility?
The source for above is Walid Shoebat.
No. Since I have found the path of God Alone I have never left it nor would I trade this path for any other - You Alone we serve and You Alone we seek for help!
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Peace.
Perhaps the question the person was trying to ask Layth was when he left, "sunnism" did he ever become an atheist or any other religion before he entered into the Quran Alone (islam).
Or..was there a period of time between the time Layth left Sunnism and entered into the Quran alone stance (islam)?
I would also be interested in knowing what people did Layth associate with that this brother is claiming. Does he have the actual source that we could see to verify this information or invalidate it.
Apprecaite it.
Sakina
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No, I have read you and I like you that is why I am here and discussing you; but at the same time I want to be clarified from a person who has increasing followers,
Raj-ah,
Who has increasing (numbers of) followers? I'm sorry, but is there a leader with followers here? I thought people here were trying to think for themselves, and not act as obedient desciples to someone. I hope people here try to follow guidance, sense, goodness and their hearts in pursuit of truth, not some human authority. -
Raj-ah,
Who has increasing (numbers of) followers? I'm sorry, but is there a leader with followers here? I thought people here were trying to think for themselves, and not act as obedient desciples to someone. I hope people here try to follow guidance, sense, goodness and their hearts in pursuit of truth, not some human authority.I am the real Layth, the other Layth is a decoy.
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I am the real Layth, the other Layth is a decoy.
I am not going to discuss this veil issue with you. You will not put it on my head and I will not lift it off your eyes, so why bother?
End of story.http//i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/nabpeace/gif%20files/LOL_Hair.gifhttp//i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/nabpeace/gif%20files/lmfao.gif
peace
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Samia
How can be their difference of understanding in Quran in this particular verse, unless and until you deliberately want to change it.The word used for 'head covering' in this ayat is 'Khumr'. In Arabic this word is specifically and only used for the head covering cloth, you should now this better then me. If God did not mean to direct towards the observance of head covering, usage of such a word seems unnecessary and a cause for confusion, charateristics that the word of God certainly do not possess.
The fact that this word is used and no other is in itself a pointer towards head covering.rotfl rotfl rotfl
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Layth
What clarifications are you looking for? Be specific and I will try my best to answer.
Dear may be my english is causing some confusions and you are not getting my point, Ok let me try once again.
Edip has accused Kamal Nawash and his organization for having some hidden motives and which are against Islam, After studying and knowing about Kamal Nawash I see many similarities between your organization and his, for example changing the meaning of Quran or rather translating english words for arabic words which are according to moderen day scenario because you live in society which does not accept old translation of Quran; forgetting that Quran was revealed 1400 years ago. Kamal is highlighted by the westeren media favourably and so is your orgnizaition. Edip was once traditionalist Muslim and had no say in westeren world but now the world has changed for him after and that also seems true for some old Saudi.His and I guess your combined effort of translating Quran in a new way has gained praise from Irshad Menji and Amina Wadud , this says it all.
In quest for truth you seem to be going to far away, as is our friend Ayman; who has changed the Kaaba without Allah's consent. In order to please Jews and Christians and others we are going so far away from the original, we have forget what Allah said in Quran
Quran
O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressorsDespite this all I still like you, You have brought forward some very excellent points and provided Muslims with such a Platform where one can discuss what, in other Muslims forums is neverthought of.
Layth
No. Since I have found the path of God Alone I have never left it nor would I trade this path for any other - You Alone we serve and You Alone we seek for help!
How did you find the path of God Alone, after settling in USA? Why most of the well wishers of Islam are discarded in their own countries, they even have to hide their identities and they are residing in Europe and USA? this is strange very strange
Edip, You, Kamal, Irshad, Rushdie, Tasleema a long list, i am just curious, how can I differentiate you from the rest I REALLY WANT TO. -
In quest for truth you seem to be going to far away, as is our friend Ayman; who has changed the Kaaba without Allah's consent. In order to please Jews and Christians and others we are going so far away from the original, we have forget what Allah said in Quran
Quran
O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressorsSalaam,
The arguments that Ayman puts forward with the archeological evidence regarding the Kaaba are convincing enough but we need to do more research.
From the Qur?an I understand that the ?sanctuary? fits with Jerusalem, but for Jews this is very bad news, as they justify their right to the Dome of the rock on the basis that it is not mentioned in the Quran. If anything Jews and Christians are certainly not happy that we consider the DOR as our Kaaba.
One thing that bothers me a lot is why Allah (swt) would have allowed the corrupt Saudis to be the custodians of the Kaaba and a good portion of what many spend on Hajj goes to US today to pay back loans, taken by the Saudis to protect them from Sadaam Husain during the first Gulf war.
United states along with the Saudi Royals make sure that any war offensive starts after the tourist season(hajj) so they have their funds secured from the revenue received by the haji tourists. As you can see fresh news of skirmishes with Iran are now hyped up, so always look for a sign of war after the hajj.peace
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Salam,
Dear may be my english is causing some confusions and you are not getting my point, Ok let me try once again.
Edip has accused Kamal Nawash and his organization for having some hidden motives and which are against Islam, After studying and knowing about Kamal Nawash I see many similarities between your organization and his, for example changing the meaning of Quran or rather translating english words for arabic words which are according to moderen day scenario because you live in society which does not accept old translation of Quran; forgetting that Quran was revealed 1400 years ago. Kamal is highlighted by the westeren media favourably and so is your orgnizaition. Edip was once traditionalist Muslim and had no say in westeren world but now the world has changed for him after and that also seems true for some old Saudi.Your assumptions are clearly wrong. The translation of the Quran I support renders the words as they are while taking into account the subject and supporting verses - it is a matter of accuracy and never about changing words from their meaning to fit preconcieved notions or agendas outside of God`s teachings. Now, if such translation is at odds with the set understanding of the masses or what has been transmitted by their scholars - then that is not my concern nor a subject I care about.
His and I guess your combined effort of translating Quran in a new way has gained praise from Irshad Menji and Amina Wadud , this says it all.
It does not say it all. Would you rather Edip or I turn away those who might be seeking the path of God? The Quran instructs us not to turn away those that may seek God`s grace (652, 801-4) eventhough on the surface they may not appear to be likely candidates.
In quest for truth you seem to be going to far away, as is our friend Ayman; who has changed the Kaaba without Allah's consent. In order to please Jews and Christians and others we are going so far away from the original, we have forget what Allah said in Quran
Please explain to me how the Jews or Christians would be pleased that we call for Jerusalem to be the heart of the pilgrimage? Would that support their case for ownership of Jerusalem and Palestine or would that work against them? Also, explain to me how the Jews and Christians would be pleased that we claim Islam to be a just and logical system which outshines any other system on Earth vs. the current sunni and shia fanatics who amputate hands, veil women, kill apostates, make the prophet into a sex maniac, avoid technology, live in superstition and hate, and above all have no concept of sence or justice!
Which do you think the Jews or Christians would hate more? The ones who hold to the Quran, or the ones who have abondoned it?
How did you find the path of God Alone, after settling in USA? Why most of the well wishers of Islam are discarded in their own countries, they even have to hide their identities and they are residing in Europe and USA? this is strange very strange
Edip, You, Kamal, Irshad, Rushdie, Tasleema a long list, i am just curious, how can I differentiate you from the rest I REALLY WANT TO.I live in the Middle East - not US. Secondly, I found the path of God alone by the grace of God - not by the location I was in! If I am not mistaken, Edip found the path when he was in a jail in Turkey? I found the path when I was working abroad for a short stint. God finds and guides those who seek Him, and I have, as long as I can remember, sought Him (may He be glorified forever).
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Layth
Your assumptions are clearly wrong. The translation of the Quran I support renders the words as they are while taking into account the subject and supporting verses - it is a matter of accuracy and never about changing words from their meaning to fit preconcieved notions or agendas outside of God`s teachings
Some of my friends are studying this translation in detail and shortly we will point out where the meanings of words have been changed to fit preconcieved notions offcourse I am sure not deliberatley.
But for as of now what about the usage of the word "Progressive" in your translation ? Was it by Mistake or Deliberately added?Layth
It does not say it all. Would you rather Edip or I turn away those who might be seeking the path of God? The Quran instructs us not to turn away those that may seek God`s grace (652, 801-4) eventhough on the surface they may not appear to be likely candidates
.No sir, it is not about turning any one away from path of God. What I am saying is that we all Know about Irshad Menji and Amina Wadud and if the people of their alike are happy with what you have presented then this tells the story.
Layth
Please explain to me how the Jews or Christians would be pleased that we call for Jerusalem to be the heart of the pilgrimage? Would that support their case for ownership of Jerusalem and Palestine or would that work against them? Also, explain to me how the Jews and Christians would be pleased that we claim Islam to be a just and logical system which outshines any other system on Earth vs. the current sunni and shia fanatics who amputate hands, veil women, kill apostates, make the prophet into a sex maniac, avoid technology, live in superstition and hate, and above all have no concept of sence or justice!
Which do you think the Jews or Christians would hate more? The ones who hold to the Quran, or the ones who have abondoned it?
O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors
I am just going to explain it in the following post.
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But for as of now what about the usage of the word "Progressive" in your translation ? Was it by Mistake or Deliberately added?
Progress, horrible word. Still disgusting to traditionalists after 1000 years of stagnation...
