What about all the bad things that happen?
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I don't understand where you got that from. From god alone comes everything (2116). That doesn't mean, however that god approves/endorses bad (479).
478 Wherever you may be, death will find you, even if you are in fortified towers. If any good befalls them, they say "This is from God," and if any bad befalls them, they say "This is from you!" Say "All is from God;" what is wrong with these people, they barely understand anything said!
479 Any good that befalls you is from God, and any bad that befalls you is from yourself. We have sent you as a messenger to the people and God is enough as a witness.
I will study these more carefully, thank you.
peace,
dotty -
lol OPF you are definitely right, I obviously didn't think my words through. In the present moment there is either pleasure or pain, not both at the same time (sometimes). What I'm trying to say is they are both poles of the same magnet so to speak. Just as a wave has a crest and a trough, pleasure is inseperable from pain. A mountain peak implies a bottom, and similarly, pleasure implies pain and vice versa.
You are right Dotty in saying that my words will not comfort a child who has been beaten. Words will do nothing, except point.
Anyway, I know nothing and just felt like typing these words, I cannot even tell you who 'I' am. I suggest we all endeavour before embarking on anything, to figure out who's doing the embarking. Who is thinking these thoughts? Who is experiencing anger and frustration, love and happiness?Who is it that doesn't want to experience pain? Who is it that wants eternal pleasure?
I know none of what I say answers your questions, but in writing this, I'm attempting to answer some of my own. Sorry for the hijacking of your thread, or for the insensitivity in my posts.
Peace -
You are right Dotty in saying that my words will not comfort a child who has been beaten. Words will do nothing, except point.
Anyway, I know nothing and just felt like typing these words, I cannot even tell you who 'I' am. I suggest we all endeavour before embarking on anything, to figure out who's doing the embarking. Who is thinking these thoughts? Who is experiencing anger and frustration, love and happiness?Who is it that doesn't want to experience pain? Who is it that wants eternal pleasure?
I know none of what I say answers your questions, but in writing this, I'm attempting to answer some of my own. Sorry for the hijacking of your thread, or for the insensitivity in my posts.
PeaceHey no need for apologies. Sometimes, when I think I know the answer to something, I find myself asking other questions... so in the end I still don't know.
If bad things only happened to bad people, then the world would be illogical and incompatible with free-choice.
Without experiencing bad, we would never know good.
If God exists, then there is no injustice in the end.
Hmmmmm, I agree that without bad we cannot know what is good, but I don't believe that free-choice as available to all.
Small children are not choosing to starve, be forced into prostitution, lay in bed every night near death because they don't have medical facilities, etc.Now, going back to these verses
478 Wherever you may be, death will find you, even if you are in fortified towers. If any good befalls them, they say "This is from God," and if any bad befalls them, they say "This is from you!" Say "All is from God;" what is wrong with these people, they barely understand anything said!
479 Any good that befalls you is from God, and any bad that befalls you is from yourself. We have sent you as a messenger to the people and God is enough as a witness.
If bad things are from our own doing... well, that makes sense if we make a mistake and then suffer a bad experience from that mistake. Do all things come from God? Even the bad? I am intelligent enough to know all means ALL, but I still feel that bad things come from satan and God allows what He wishes... in that sense it still comes from God.
I can usually find positive in a bad situation, for example... A is driving to work and gets a flat tire... well, maybe if A had gone on as usual A would have been in a terrible accident and this was God's way of protecting A. Therefore, this is a positive thing, even though it seems to be a bad thing.
Is God giving innocent people so much hell in this world with the gift of the greatest reward in the next world? Maybe.
I'm just trying to sort this all out.
peace,
dotty -
Small children are not choosing to starve, be forced into prostitution, lay in bed every night near death because they don't have medical facilities, etc.
That is not what I meant. I meant free-choice means that if someone wants to stab and kill a good person, they can. Similarly, if people wish to let a child starve, they can etc. If one wishes only bad things to happen to bad people, then we must remove logic and free-choice. That is what I meant.
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That is not what I meant. I meant free-choice means that if someone wants to stab and kill a good person, they can. Similarly, if people wish to let a child starve, they can etc. If one wishes only bad things to happen to bad people, then we must remove logic and free-choice. That is what I meant.
You can also remove the "badness" (i.e. remove the concept of good and bad from the brain, take away the ability to feel pain, etc) but that wouldn't be fun would it?
I think these things in us are just a whole part of the test. Maybe we're just part of God's research into simulated reality ;D
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That is not what I meant. I meant free-choice means that if someone wants to stab and kill a good person, they can. Similarly, if people wish to let a child starve, they can etc. If one wishes only bad things to happen to bad people, then we must remove logic and free-choice. That is what I meant.
Thanks for clarifying.
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therefore if we remove free-choice, we are slaves with no choice, thus invalidating this life/test.
So if people who commit crimes against humankind have free-choice, as you mentioned earlier, then what choices do the innocent have? Wouldn't they then be slaves with no choice?
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So if people who commit crimes against humankind have free-choice, as you mentioned earlier, then what choices do the innocent have? Wouldn't they then be slaves with no choice?
No.
You seem to be confusing the two issues an evil act, and the ability to choose (i.e. free-choice) to do good/bad/whatever.
To remove evil acts, as I have been saying, would mean we must also remove logic (in the world) and free-choice (in people). If we did remove these things, this life/test becomes invalid/pointless, as we would be slaves with no free-choice and the world wouldn't make sense. For a brilliant analogy, see The Matrix where Agent Smith is talking to a tied up Morpheus and he says the machines created the first matrix where everything was perfect, no bad things took place etc. what happened? He then explains the human mind "did not accept the program" and failed. This is exactly what would happen if we removed "bad things" from the world. It wouldn't make sense, and our minds would reject it.
If an evil act is committed against an innocent in which they have no choice, then this seems unfair. Listen to your inner compass. If you feel it is unfair, then your soul is telling you there must be a counter-balance to the equation. Something which sets it right... this is where God comes in.
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No.
You seem to be confusing the two issues an evil act, and the ability to choose (i.e. free-choice) to do good/bad/whatever.
To remove evil acts, as I have been saying, would mean we must also remove logic (in the world) and free-choice (in people). If we did remove these things, this life/test becomes invalid/pointless, as we would be slaves with no free-choice and the world wouldn't make sense. For a brilliant analogy, see The Matrix where Agent Smith is talking to a tied up Morpheus and he says the machines created the first matrix where everything was perfect, no bad things took place etc. what happened? He then explains the human mind "did not accept the program" and failed. This is exactly what would happen if we removed "bad things" from the world. It wouldn't make sense, and our minds would reject it.
If an evil act is committed against an innocent in which they have no choice, then this seems unfair. Listen to your inner compass. If you feel it is unfair, then your soul is telling you there must be a counter-balance to the equation. Something which sets it right... this is where God comes in.
Ok, I hear your point here.
479 Any good that befalls you is from God, and any bad that befalls you is from yourself. We have sent you as a messenger to the people and God is enough as a witness.
Is it logical to think that all bad things happen to us because of our own doing? Here again, would innocent people bring bad to themselves when they are innocent? Maybe I am really confused here or I am not understanding this verse correctly.
Please help!
peace,
dotty -
Ok, I hear your point here.
479 Any good that befalls you is from God, and any bad that befalls you is from yourself. We have sent you as a messenger to the people and God is enough as a witness.
Is it logical to think that all bad things happen to us because of our own doing? Here again, would innocent people bring bad to themselves when they are innocent? Maybe I am really confused here or I am not understanding this verse correctly.
Please help!
peace,
dottyIt's an address to the messenger, clearly note the context. So a messenger to mankind, has that applying to him, not in the general case. Also, meaning that such a messenger would have god's protection unless he did something to lose that privilege himself.
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but to your question about bad things that you think had happen to good people like you,
dont take it as bad, it may be for a good and start doing good things..
sometimes what we consider bad for now, may actually be good for tomorrow, many would have faced this in their life.I don't feel I am "good people". I try my best to do right and help others when I have the means... with the help of God. If I thought I was good people then I'm afraid I would not try as hard... thinking I am already "good enough".
I do like your view of how bad things today may actually be good for the future (and many would not see it this way at the time). I've had my share of bad in the past and I'm confident I would not be the same person today without them.
Thanks for sharing.
peace,
dotty -
From the Tao te Ching
Under heaven all can see beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness.
All can know good as good only because there is evil.Therefore having and not having arise together.
Difficult and easy complement each other.
Long and short contrast each other
High and low rest upon each other;
Voice and sound harmonize each other;
Front and back follow one another.There's also a chinese story that I'd like to share.
"There is a Chinese story of a farmer who used an old horse to till his fields. One day, the horse escaped into the hills and when the farmer's neighbors sympathized with the old man over his bad luck, the farmer replied, "Bad luck? Good luck? Who knows?" A week later, the horse returned with a herd of horses from the hills and this time the neighbors congratulated the farmer on his good luck. His reply was, "Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?"
Then, when the farmer's son was attempting to tame one of the wild horses, he fell off its back and broke his leg. Everyone thought this very bad luck. Not the farmer, whose only reaction was, "Bad luck? Good luck? Who knows?"
Some weeks later, the army marched into the village and conscripted every able-bodied youth they found there. When they saw the farmer's son with his broken leg, they let him off. Now was that good luck or bad luck?"
I believe I've read a similar parable in the Quran, but cannot find it. Our ideals and expectations tell us if something is good or bad... Does a baby know that losing $20 000 is a bad thing? No, of course not. We all have thoughts on what should and shouldn't happen, what is good and what is bad. Yet, all these things are just that, thoughts. They are lenses through which we experience reality, and to mistake these lenses for reality is what causes problems. Of course, understanding this, you may attempt to rid yourself of expectations and ideals. However, this too is also an ideal. It is the attempt to rid yourself of bad in a different form. Sometimes you just need to surrender giveup, and surrendering is not something you can try to do, it is something that happens. What is 'you'?
Jaques
All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages.As You Like It Act 2, scene 7, 139?143
Peace
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Peace, Wakas
To remove evil acts, as I have been saying, would mean we must also remove logic (in the world) and free-choice (in people).
If we did remove these things, this life/test becomes invalid/pointlessLet me a comment.
Free choice. The explanation of evil acts because of the free choice is the usual explanation given by Catholicism, I see that it is the same in Islam, but I don't find it as an answer, because it neither justifies the unfairness suffered by many, nor clarifies the God's aquiescence.
Logic, what does it have to do with evil acts?
The test. If life is a test, and some people fail it by commiting evil acts against others, what about those others? You say regarding this
there must be a counter-balance to the equation. Something which sets it right... this is where God comes in.
could you give an example of what you mean here? -
peace sister Elena,
but I don't find it as an answer, because it neither justifies the unfairness suffered by many, nor clarifies the God's aquiescence.
I never said it justifies it, it simply explains it, i.e. puts it in its place in the bigger picture. If one stands up close to a painting, it might look odd, like patches or blobs of paint and it doesn't make sense, it is only when you take a step back to take in the bigger picture, you realise the shades, the blobs, the dark shadows etc are necessary.
Logic, what does it have to do with evil acts?
Logic has everything to do with it. It is impossible to remove "evil acts" from free choice and still have the world make sense. This is a crucial point to understand. Simply think of real word situations.
could you give an example of what you mean here?
What I meant by "counter-balance in the equation", is there must be a correcting mechanism. However, my answer is only applicable if one believes in God. If one doesn't believe in God, then the thought of no correcting mechanism will be more difficult to digest. When the day or requital/obligation is held, the accounts will be settled, we will be paid in full for our deeds, and there will be no injustice. This is what al quran says.
Further reading http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8013.0 -
Peace back, Wakas
yes, yes, I understand your points if I see them from your perspective, except, perhaps, the logic point, but never mind, I can move on from the logic thing.
I meant, ok, the reason is the free choice... and? What does that explain about the God's consent? God still allows it, so, it is not explanatory, we are at the same starting point!
If you find any other answer, please, let me/us know, I see you continue studying.
