What about all the bad things that happen?
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therefore if we remove free-choice, we are slaves with no choice, thus invalidating this life/test.
So if people who commit crimes against humankind have free-choice, as you mentioned earlier, then what choices do the innocent have? Wouldn't they then be slaves with no choice?
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So if people who commit crimes against humankind have free-choice, as you mentioned earlier, then what choices do the innocent have? Wouldn't they then be slaves with no choice?
No.
You seem to be confusing the two issues an evil act, and the ability to choose (i.e. free-choice) to do good/bad/whatever.
To remove evil acts, as I have been saying, would mean we must also remove logic (in the world) and free-choice (in people). If we did remove these things, this life/test becomes invalid/pointless, as we would be slaves with no free-choice and the world wouldn't make sense. For a brilliant analogy, see The Matrix where Agent Smith is talking to a tied up Morpheus and he says the machines created the first matrix where everything was perfect, no bad things took place etc. what happened? He then explains the human mind "did not accept the program" and failed. This is exactly what would happen if we removed "bad things" from the world. It wouldn't make sense, and our minds would reject it.
If an evil act is committed against an innocent in which they have no choice, then this seems unfair. Listen to your inner compass. If you feel it is unfair, then your soul is telling you there must be a counter-balance to the equation. Something which sets it right... this is where God comes in.
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No.
You seem to be confusing the two issues an evil act, and the ability to choose (i.e. free-choice) to do good/bad/whatever.
To remove evil acts, as I have been saying, would mean we must also remove logic (in the world) and free-choice (in people). If we did remove these things, this life/test becomes invalid/pointless, as we would be slaves with no free-choice and the world wouldn't make sense. For a brilliant analogy, see The Matrix where Agent Smith is talking to a tied up Morpheus and he says the machines created the first matrix where everything was perfect, no bad things took place etc. what happened? He then explains the human mind "did not accept the program" and failed. This is exactly what would happen if we removed "bad things" from the world. It wouldn't make sense, and our minds would reject it.
If an evil act is committed against an innocent in which they have no choice, then this seems unfair. Listen to your inner compass. If you feel it is unfair, then your soul is telling you there must be a counter-balance to the equation. Something which sets it right... this is where God comes in.
Ok, I hear your point here.
479 Any good that befalls you is from God, and any bad that befalls you is from yourself. We have sent you as a messenger to the people and God is enough as a witness.
Is it logical to think that all bad things happen to us because of our own doing? Here again, would innocent people bring bad to themselves when they are innocent? Maybe I am really confused here or I am not understanding this verse correctly.
Please help!
peace,
dotty -
Ok, I hear your point here.
479 Any good that befalls you is from God, and any bad that befalls you is from yourself. We have sent you as a messenger to the people and God is enough as a witness.
Is it logical to think that all bad things happen to us because of our own doing? Here again, would innocent people bring bad to themselves when they are innocent? Maybe I am really confused here or I am not understanding this verse correctly.
Please help!
peace,
dottyIt's an address to the messenger, clearly note the context. So a messenger to mankind, has that applying to him, not in the general case. Also, meaning that such a messenger would have god's protection unless he did something to lose that privilege himself.
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but to your question about bad things that you think had happen to good people like you,
dont take it as bad, it may be for a good and start doing good things..
sometimes what we consider bad for now, may actually be good for tomorrow, many would have faced this in their life.I don't feel I am "good people". I try my best to do right and help others when I have the means... with the help of God. If I thought I was good people then I'm afraid I would not try as hard... thinking I am already "good enough".
I do like your view of how bad things today may actually be good for the future (and many would not see it this way at the time). I've had my share of bad in the past and I'm confident I would not be the same person today without them.
Thanks for sharing.
peace,
dotty -
From the Tao te Ching
Under heaven all can see beauty as beauty only because there is ugliness.
All can know good as good only because there is evil.Therefore having and not having arise together.
Difficult and easy complement each other.
Long and short contrast each other
High and low rest upon each other;
Voice and sound harmonize each other;
Front and back follow one another.There's also a chinese story that I'd like to share.
"There is a Chinese story of a farmer who used an old horse to till his fields. One day, the horse escaped into the hills and when the farmer's neighbors sympathized with the old man over his bad luck, the farmer replied, "Bad luck? Good luck? Who knows?" A week later, the horse returned with a herd of horses from the hills and this time the neighbors congratulated the farmer on his good luck. His reply was, "Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?"
Then, when the farmer's son was attempting to tame one of the wild horses, he fell off its back and broke his leg. Everyone thought this very bad luck. Not the farmer, whose only reaction was, "Bad luck? Good luck? Who knows?"
Some weeks later, the army marched into the village and conscripted every able-bodied youth they found there. When they saw the farmer's son with his broken leg, they let him off. Now was that good luck or bad luck?"
I believe I've read a similar parable in the Quran, but cannot find it. Our ideals and expectations tell us if something is good or bad... Does a baby know that losing $20 000 is a bad thing? No, of course not. We all have thoughts on what should and shouldn't happen, what is good and what is bad. Yet, all these things are just that, thoughts. They are lenses through which we experience reality, and to mistake these lenses for reality is what causes problems. Of course, understanding this, you may attempt to rid yourself of expectations and ideals. However, this too is also an ideal. It is the attempt to rid yourself of bad in a different form. Sometimes you just need to surrender giveup, and surrendering is not something you can try to do, it is something that happens. What is 'you'?
Jaques
All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages.As You Like It Act 2, scene 7, 139?143
Peace
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Peace, Wakas
To remove evil acts, as I have been saying, would mean we must also remove logic (in the world) and free-choice (in people).
If we did remove these things, this life/test becomes invalid/pointlessLet me a comment.
Free choice. The explanation of evil acts because of the free choice is the usual explanation given by Catholicism, I see that it is the same in Islam, but I don't find it as an answer, because it neither justifies the unfairness suffered by many, nor clarifies the God's aquiescence.
Logic, what does it have to do with evil acts?
The test. If life is a test, and some people fail it by commiting evil acts against others, what about those others? You say regarding this
there must be a counter-balance to the equation. Something which sets it right... this is where God comes in.
could you give an example of what you mean here? -
peace sister Elena,
but I don't find it as an answer, because it neither justifies the unfairness suffered by many, nor clarifies the God's aquiescence.
I never said it justifies it, it simply explains it, i.e. puts it in its place in the bigger picture. If one stands up close to a painting, it might look odd, like patches or blobs of paint and it doesn't make sense, it is only when you take a step back to take in the bigger picture, you realise the shades, the blobs, the dark shadows etc are necessary.
Logic, what does it have to do with evil acts?
Logic has everything to do with it. It is impossible to remove "evil acts" from free choice and still have the world make sense. This is a crucial point to understand. Simply think of real word situations.
could you give an example of what you mean here?
What I meant by "counter-balance in the equation", is there must be a correcting mechanism. However, my answer is only applicable if one believes in God. If one doesn't believe in God, then the thought of no correcting mechanism will be more difficult to digest. When the day or requital/obligation is held, the accounts will be settled, we will be paid in full for our deeds, and there will be no injustice. This is what al quran says.
Further reading http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8013.0 -
Peace back, Wakas
yes, yes, I understand your points if I see them from your perspective, except, perhaps, the logic point, but never mind, I can move on from the logic thing.
I meant, ok, the reason is the free choice... and? What does that explain about the God's consent? God still allows it, so, it is not explanatory, we are at the same starting point!
If you find any other answer, please, let me/us know, I see you continue studying.
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peace sister Elena,
I only saw your post yesterday, sorry.
If I understand you correctly, your point of contention is that bad things happen and God allows them to happen, and this is a problem.
Firstly, the above position/point already assumes God exists. And you're right it would be a problem IF God did not correct this situation. However, we are told in AQ, God does correct this on the day of requital/obligation/due when our deeds are repaid. There is no injustice when the story is completed.
If I may try an analogy... if you were an observer watching me standing over two hungry children fighting over a piece of bread, and I stopped them and took the piece of bread from them and you paused the scene right there and began to draw conclusions on what happened and if it was fair or not, you might think I took the bread for myself (i.e. something unfair) or something else... however, if you unpaused it and let the story complete, you may see me break the bread into two equal portions and return it to the children, each with their own share.
Thus, if we go back to the original point, you are making your judgement on God as being unfair only halfway through the story. As I said before, if God exists, like your point of contention assumes, we should remember that this life is only part of the story, and there will be no injustice once the story is complete.I hope this was of help.
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Peace jonny_k,
thanks for the link.Peace Wakas
it's ok, it's me who is late!I agree with Tay, nice analogy, and clear. Nothing to oppose really, you trust on that end, when the story is completed, because of AQ.
I see that end as a hope (of yours) not as something real. But I understand your approach.Thanks for the answers!
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peace elena,
I'm not sure if I would say I believe it soley because of AQ but partly because of it.
Also, of course it is not real, i.e. a fact (as this would invalidate this life/test), you used the word hope, AQ uses the term 'iman' meaning 'trust/belief'.
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Daud-19 - Does that mean there is no satan? We are the satan?
Have you heard about paying it forward. What if it works in the opposite too. What if you start a whole chain of negative events just because you don't smile at someone as they walk pass you or you are a bit short with someone?
We have the choice!!
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What if you start a chain of negative events because you smile someone, they get happy and jump for joy, only to be flattened by the 203 Express Railway?
You can't live by "What-if"s.
