What about all the bad things that happen?
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Peace, Wakas
To remove evil acts, as I have been saying, would mean we must also remove logic (in the world) and free-choice (in people).
If we did remove these things, this life/test becomes invalid/pointlessLet me a comment.
Free choice. The explanation of evil acts because of the free choice is the usual explanation given by Catholicism, I see that it is the same in Islam, but I don't find it as an answer, because it neither justifies the unfairness suffered by many, nor clarifies the God's aquiescence.
Logic, what does it have to do with evil acts?
The test. If life is a test, and some people fail it by commiting evil acts against others, what about those others? You say regarding this
there must be a counter-balance to the equation. Something which sets it right... this is where God comes in.
could you give an example of what you mean here? -
peace sister Elena,
but I don't find it as an answer, because it neither justifies the unfairness suffered by many, nor clarifies the God's aquiescence.
I never said it justifies it, it simply explains it, i.e. puts it in its place in the bigger picture. If one stands up close to a painting, it might look odd, like patches or blobs of paint and it doesn't make sense, it is only when you take a step back to take in the bigger picture, you realise the shades, the blobs, the dark shadows etc are necessary.
Logic, what does it have to do with evil acts?
Logic has everything to do with it. It is impossible to remove "evil acts" from free choice and still have the world make sense. This is a crucial point to understand. Simply think of real word situations.
could you give an example of what you mean here?
What I meant by "counter-balance in the equation", is there must be a correcting mechanism. However, my answer is only applicable if one believes in God. If one doesn't believe in God, then the thought of no correcting mechanism will be more difficult to digest. When the day or requital/obligation is held, the accounts will be settled, we will be paid in full for our deeds, and there will be no injustice. This is what al quran says.
Further reading http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8013.0 -
Peace back, Wakas
yes, yes, I understand your points if I see them from your perspective, except, perhaps, the logic point, but never mind, I can move on from the logic thing.
I meant, ok, the reason is the free choice... and? What does that explain about the God's consent? God still allows it, so, it is not explanatory, we are at the same starting point!
If you find any other answer, please, let me/us know, I see you continue studying.
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peace sister Elena,
I only saw your post yesterday, sorry.
If I understand you correctly, your point of contention is that bad things happen and God allows them to happen, and this is a problem.
Firstly, the above position/point already assumes God exists. And you're right it would be a problem IF God did not correct this situation. However, we are told in AQ, God does correct this on the day of requital/obligation/due when our deeds are repaid. There is no injustice when the story is completed.
If I may try an analogy... if you were an observer watching me standing over two hungry children fighting over a piece of bread, and I stopped them and took the piece of bread from them and you paused the scene right there and began to draw conclusions on what happened and if it was fair or not, you might think I took the bread for myself (i.e. something unfair) or something else... however, if you unpaused it and let the story complete, you may see me break the bread into two equal portions and return it to the children, each with their own share.
Thus, if we go back to the original point, you are making your judgement on God as being unfair only halfway through the story. As I said before, if God exists, like your point of contention assumes, we should remember that this life is only part of the story, and there will be no injustice once the story is complete.I hope this was of help.
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Peace jonny_k,
thanks for the link.Peace Wakas
it's ok, it's me who is late!I agree with Tay, nice analogy, and clear. Nothing to oppose really, you trust on that end, when the story is completed, because of AQ.
I see that end as a hope (of yours) not as something real. But I understand your approach.Thanks for the answers!
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peace elena,
I'm not sure if I would say I believe it soley because of AQ but partly because of it.
Also, of course it is not real, i.e. a fact (as this would invalidate this life/test), you used the word hope, AQ uses the term 'iman' meaning 'trust/belief'.
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Daud-19 - Does that mean there is no satan? We are the satan?
Have you heard about paying it forward. What if it works in the opposite too. What if you start a whole chain of negative events just because you don't smile at someone as they walk pass you or you are a bit short with someone?
We have the choice!!
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What if you start a chain of negative events because you smile someone, they get happy and jump for joy, only to be flattened by the 203 Express Railway?
You can't live by "What-if"s.
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Peace all
Something which i thought about a while ago was this.
happiness and unhappiness are the important things here with respect to reward and punishment (i think)
I wondered what happens to the happines of those who are brought up in poverty and the following came to me.
When a poor person finds shelter or food, it can/maby be the equivalent of a person with normal wealth winning the lottery.
That level of happiness which the poor MAY experience, could be more frequent than that of a person with nomral wealth. However the normal wealth person probably does not experience as much unhappieness as the poor person.I wondered whether there is a balance somewhere with respect to the happiness and unhappiness of these individuals in different environments and circumstances.
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However the normal wealth person probably does not experience as much unhappieness as the poor person.
Salaam nimnimak,
In case of wealth this is probably true. Wealthy people can also be unhappy, which of course, has nothing to do with money.
Peace,
dotty -
Salam Dotty
Do you not think that poor people can be happy? I think they may adapt to their situation although if it's very very bad they probabely wouldn't.
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Absolutely nimnimak.
There is happiness/sadness in every walk of life. Did I give you the impression that poor people cannot be happy? I did not mean to.
I bet there are a lot of poor people that can explain their happiness..... and I'm sure they appreciate things much more that ones born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Unfortunately, many times poor people have to work so hard just to get the smallest necessities. We should always be mindful of that.
peace
dotty -
Absolutely nimnimak.
There is happiness/sadness in every walk of life. Did I give you the impression that poor people cannot be happy? I did not mean to.
I bet there are a lot of poor people that can explain their happiness..... and I'm sure they appreciate things much more that ones born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Unfortunately, many times poor people have to work so hard just to get the smallest necessities. We should always be mindful of that.
peace
dottyI agree bravo
peace -
So if people who commit crimes against humankind have free-choice, as you mentioned earlier, then what choices do the innocent have? Wouldn't they then be slaves with no choice?
just to get back to this quote - wouldnt the "choice" of the innocent be in how they choose to react/deal with their situation?
peace sister Elena,
if you were an observer watching me standing over two hungry children fighting over a piece of bread, and I stopped them and took the piece of bread from them and you paused the scene right there and began to draw conclusions on what happened and if it was fair or not, you might think I took the bread for myself (i.e. something unfair) or something else... however, if you unpaused it and let the story complete, you may see me break the bread into two equal portions and return it to the children, each with their own share.
Thus, if we go back to the original point, you are making your judgement on God as being unfair only halfway through the story. As I said before, if God exists, like your point of contention assumes, we should remember that this life is only part of the story, and there will be no injustice once the story is complete.I hope this was of help.
This is very optimistic bro...... nice simple analogy )
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just to get back to this quote - wouldnt the "choice" of the innocent be in how they choose to react/deal with their situation?
Yes and no.
A small child who is sexually abused, let's say, may not even know HOW to react/deal.
In fact, it's a pretty sure bet they don't.
Peace
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True - but then the choice is theirs when they grow up perhaps?
to be honest this plays alot on my mind - why does god allow it? Its like he created everything then took a step back to watch us self-destruct or something....
I remember asking somehting similar a while ago about these bad things -
God allows these to happen
and God knows that some people will commit these horrible crimes but he created them anyways - why?
and God knows he'll punish for these things - so why make those souls who are surely going to be going to "hell" in the first place? (does that make sense?)
