Abortion
-
Peace all,
I am not looking for an absolute rule for or against abortion (there are no absolute rules in morality). And I am also not arguing that abortion is right or wrong.
My point is that if we let women decide whether they want to keep their unborn baby or not, the world will be a healthier, happier place. I think that all the research and statistics back me up on that, and I doubt that you can refute it.
because
I think the right thing to do is leaving it up to the motherMe thinks abortion should be legal and whether or not God approves it He will be the one to judge the perpetrator.
agree
Me too
peace
-
peace
Jankren's argument isn't a very good one, or it needs further explanation.
This is what I understood of his post
abortion is bad, but we should let people do it and let god judge them.
or
we can't decide whether abortion is good or bad so we'll let god decide it.The thing is, people do a lot of other bad things that we HAVE outlawed, and for good reason.
You would never say, let people murder others and let god be the judge. What's different about abortion?
And we CAN judge good or bad actions, and take measures to prevent bad actions and punish the perpetrators. We have to decide whether abortion is good or bad, or in what circumstances is it okay?
It's our moral responsibility to think about this issue and try to reach a conclusion. We cannot just leave every difficult decision up to god and hope for the best. -
What are we arguing about? Whether abortion is bad?
Of course it is bad. A happy contented and comfortable woman would hate it. And even uncontented also hates it. It is bad for her. The point is not that, the point is that we are taking the question by the wrong end. We break the dam and then we want the water to stop by itself and not flood everything. And since it doesn't we go and beat up the first person we catch and who couldn't run quick enough to avoit the water, which obviously in this case is the woman.
If we do not want abortion, we must catch the thing earlier. And if we are not capable or willing to catch the thing earlier, then getting very virtuous and lecturing the most most beatable link in the chain may make us feel good, but doesn't arrange a damn thing and is eminently bully, hypocritical and coward. There are much better, fairer, righteous and effective ways of avoiding floods and abortion than getting after the woman. Of course everybody can get easily rid of unwanted, unintended babies and nothing happens, but the woman oh? that one we can catch, let's beat hell out of her.
Of course, I am not lecturing or criticising anybody in this forum, since as far as I know, everybody here is in agreement about the respect each owes to his or her own body and other peoples bodies and to God's commandaments and therefore I am not assuming any moral blemish in this virtual circle of friends. I am just talking on the general context.
As to being abortion a killing, I really don't believe so for the first weeks or months at least. If it is so then when? in the first minute? the first minute of what? I don't think even that getting into that serves any practical purpose. Aborting is something against one's own nature anyway and only is done if the alternative is more unassumable.
I said in another occasion that womens lib should have been less of women's lib and more of men reining in (themselves, of course) and doing away with the double moral by making both sexes moral and not both inmoral. Seems that bringing people to goodness is always more difficult or unwanted than the opposite. So we have abortions as we have so many other things, but abortion is a symptom not the disease.
As conclusion, if we just watch this end result, I say that I agree with Jankren, and that nobody can complain of women not being good guardians and givers of life. Is not everybody complaining that we are too many on earth and that we should have fewer children and so on? So please, people, if women need something, it is not guards or judges, but, may be, partners.
Salaam
-
we can't decide whether abortion is good or bad so we'll let god decide it.
That is what I have in mind.
Anyway, if I was to born to a rape victim or an unprepared mother who would shortly put me in the orphanage after my birth, I would rather be aborted.
-
peace Farida.I'm not sure I can but I'll try.
The mother is completely in charge of the fetus. It's up to her to take care of it. If she doesn't want to, there's nothing we can do. A dead fetus is better than a mistreated fetus which will turn into either a handicapped or abused child or both. If the father can convince her to keep it until he can take it off her hands, that works too.
Also, just to make it clear, I don't think abortion is necessarily a good thing, it's not something I would encourage. I think it is necessary.
If a teenage girl gets pregnant and is forced to have the child, are we saving a life or destroying several? Will the mother be happy? the father? the child?
Plus, I'm sure there are ways to get abortion illegally. If a woman really wants an abortion, she can probably get one. If we make abortion legal, at least we can make sure that women don't have to go to dangerous lengths to get what they want.
Of course there will be unnecessary abortions, if it is legal. But there will also be unnecessary births. Society pays the price for unwanted children. High abortion rates have been linked to lower crime rates. Society would be better off if all those unwanted children were never born.
.
We can make a law that permits parents to kill their own children. How is that any different from killing a fetus?
The difference between a fetus and a born child is that the latter is not dependent upon the mother for survival. That is why we cannot give it the same rights we would give to an actual living human being.So here is my revised understanding, abortion should be allowed (without exception) until the point where the fetus can survive without it's mother. If the mother changes her mind at that stage, there's no point in killing the fetus if we can keep it alive and then put it up for adoption.
We should do all we can to make sure people are well educated so that they make good decisions, and make sure there's a place to go for kids who are abandoned by their parents. Apart from that, I doubt there's much we can do.Peace Lobster
But then I was thinking about this (the last point), and I realized that society would be better off if we killed all the poor or all the drug users or something like that. Or if we allowed only certain people to have kids. I'm not sure about this (I'll have to think about it a bit more) but I think you can always violate the rights of a few to make everyone else happy
Allow me t show you another vision, eliminate all unwanted persons, from foetuses to disabled people to make this world a perfect and burden free world. What about the old people who are refusing to die; old and frail a burden to society get rid of them too. But then there are all those poor and malnourished people; for how long do people of means have to feed them; why not delete them too?
Be sure to leave the educated ones alone but do sterilise the uneducated ones; they will only give birth to a lot of ill brought up children. Don?t kill them though they?re a resource for cheap labour to do the icky jobs. What about the ugly people who can not afford plastic surgery; may as well get rid of them too! Well now you see that is how to tailor a real perfect world. This vision of course is not mine; it was espoused by a famous German Fuhrer by the initials A.H.However there is a think tank now, who have already see the majority of inferior race a burden on a tiny minority the superior race. In order to preserve the intelligence of the humanity they plan to eliminate the ?inferior? races, likely in our lifetime, via the sophisticated use of bio chemicals targeted at a specific race.
peace peacefarida
-
Me thinks abortion should be legal and whether or not God approves it He will be the one to judge the perpetrator.
Really!!Btw. how come you are all fighting for the legal right to abortion on a forum dedicated to the research of the Quran? You will never find Quranic justification for snuffing out human life, except in self defence. As for the world that will not abide by AQ? well you have the legal right to abort as many as you like. No problem! It?s a human right yeah? If a woman forgets to take her pill she can just get it done anywhere and soon DIY abortion kits will be available. Happy aborting!
-
Allow me t show you another vision, eliminate all unwanted persons, from foetuses to disabled people to make this world a perfect and burden free world. What about the old people who are refusing to die; old and frail a burden to society get rid of them too. But then there are all those poor and malnourished people; for how long do people of means have to feed them; why not delete them too?
Be sure to leave the educated ones alone but do sterilise the uneducated ones; they will only give birth to a lot of ill brought up children. Don?t kill them though they?re a resource for cheap labour to do the icky jobs. What about the ugly people who can not afford plastic surgery; may as well get rid of them too! Well now you see that is how to tailor a real perfect world. This vision of course is not mine; it was espoused by a famous German Fuhrer by the initials A.H.peace Farida,
I'm assuming you think you found the flaw in my argument, but I found it before you did and I this is what I said
The fetus does not have the same rights as a live human. They are different. As long as the fetus's existence depends on it's mother, we cannot treat it as a completely seperate human child. Once it reaches the stage where it has a good chance of survival without the mother (even if it is in the womb), we cannot kill it for the same reasons. Not that I'm saying that a fetus should be killed for no reason at all.
I'm thinking that since the fetus's existence and well being depends upon the mother, it would be wrong for us to let it continue to live when it is not wanted and is not being properly cared for. And as I said, women can get abortions illegally, and that means we'll be starting an underground industry of dangerous abortions performed by unqualified "doctors." And those women that don't get an abortion, they'll abandon the child (which is okay in some circumstances) and there's a good chance of the child being born with some disorder because of the lack of care when it was in the womb.And I don't think that vision would even work. Plus, it would end up making a lot of people unhappy and will take away a lot of freedom. My point was about making this world happier and safer.
And it took me WHILE to realize AH was Adolf Hitler confused -
Really!!Btw. how come you are all fighting for the legal right to abortion on a forum dedicated to the research of the Quran? You will never find Quranic justification for snuffing out human life, except in self defence. As for the world that will not abide by AQ? well you have the legal right to abort as many as you like. No problem! It?s a human right yeah? If a woman forgets to take her pill she can just get it done anywhere and soon DIY abortion kits will be available. Happy aborting!
Peace farida
please don't believe that jankren, or myself "like" abortion, (if you don't mind taking a position in your absence jank). The idea is to give the women the freedom to decide in their own soul and conscience. If abortion is not legal and under medical surveillance, much worse happens...but it'll happen anyway
Also, if you use the search function, you might find that discussions have been taking place about abortion, the moment of abortion, the only reason clearly prohibited being "fear of poverty". Search for example edip yuksel and abortion. Now please, as i know that you have a tendency to jump to conclusions, this does not mean that i share his views. But is to show you, that based on quran, it is possible to argument "in favor" of abortion.
elke
-
Peace farida
please don't believe that jankren, or myself "like" abortion, (if you don't mind taking a position in your absence jank).
the moment of abortion, the only reason clearly prohibited being "fear of poverty". Search for example edip yuksel and abortion. Now please, as i know that you have a tendency to jump to conclusions, this does not mean that i share his views. But is to show you, that based on quran, it is possible to argument "in favor" of abortion.
elke
Salaam elke
please don't believe that jankren, or myself "like" abortion,
What makes you think that I was merely replying to your post ...you have a tendency to jump to conclusionsAlso, if you use the search function, you might find that discussions have been taking place about abortion,
I am well aware of the ongoing discussion on abortion here in the UK and USA and other hush hush discussions too.
The idea is to give the women the freedom to decide in their own soul and conscience. If abortion is not legal and under medical surveillance, much worse happens
And my idea is to encourage women to responsibility and to use contraceptives and not to flaunt their right to dispose of a human foetus.
...but it'll happen anyway
Exactly and there is no need to justify it. The only time I thought of this justification was when Bosnian Muslim girls were raped and then forced to give birth.
peace -
peace Farida,
I'm assuming you think you found the flaw in my argument, but I found it before you did
argument, but I found it before you did
and I this is what I said
The fetus does not have the same rights as a live human. They are different. As long as the fetus's existence depends on it's mother, we cannot treat it as a completely seperate human child. Once it reaches the stage where it has a good chance of survival without the mother (even if it is in the womb), we cannot kill it for the same reasons. Not that I'm saying that a fetus should be killed for no reason at all.
I'm thinking that since the fetus's existence and well being depends upon the mother, it would be wrong for us to let it continue to live when it is not wanted and is not being properly cared for. And as I said, women can get abortions illegally, and that means we'll be starting an underground industry of dangerous abortions performed by unqualified "doctors." And those women that don't get an abortion, they'll abandon the child (which is okay in some circumstances) and there's a good chance of the child being born with some disorder because of the lack of care when it was in the womb.Salaam Lobster,
I'm assuming you think you found the flaw in my argument, but I found it before you did
Instead I saw intellegent forsight in your response and delebration which is a good sign and I further enhanced it with a wider well known fascist vision.And I don't think that vision would even work. Plus, it would end up making a lot of people unhappy and will take away a lot of freedom. My point was about making this world happier and safer.
Whether it works or not only time will tell, but surely this Satanic idea is in progress and is likely to take away a lot of freedom. Remember this, Satan always starts by making things look happy and safe but one needs to look to the ulterior motive behind that glimmer of hope.
peace
Ps I am not calling you Satan -
Salaam elke What makes you think that I was merely replying to your post ...you have a tendency to jump to conclusions I am well aware of the ongoing discussion on abortion here in the UK and USA and other hush hush discussions too. And my idea is to encourage women to responsibility and to use contraceptives and not to flaunt their right to dispose of a human foetus. Exactly and there is no need to justify it. The only time I thought of this justification was when Bosnian Muslim girls were raped and then forced to give birth.
peace-
Heyhey what a volcano... D
-
i was responding to a reaction of yours to a post from jankren on which i happended to have agreed
-
i do not think so
-
i did not talk about an ongoing discussion in the us, but on this subject by people that accept quran as their divine guidance - i thought that was quite clear in my post
-
encourage woman to responsability sure and contraception - yes, but no , they do not always work
-
justification ? the foetus avorted following a rape is no more guilty than the one avorted by any mother that does not want to give birth...
peace lk
-
-
- Heyhey what a volcano... D
the foetus avorted following a rape is no more guilty than the one avorted by any mother that does not want to give birth...
peace lk
the foetus avorted following a rape is no more guilty than the one avorted by any mother that does not want to give birth...
handshake
The guilt trauma has far reaching effects on women who go through an abortion -
Oh please, hands up if anyone has seen a woman abort to "save humanity".
-
that's a dig at me? If it is, then you misunderstood my post.
Not a dig at you but definitely a dig at your idea. Women abort because they make mistakes and it's a nice safety net.
-
Not a dig at you but definitely a dig at your idea. Women abort because they make mistakes and it's a nice safety net.
Yes.
but my original post wasn't about the reasons women choose abortion. It was that if we make abortion legal the world will be better off. the women could be trying the exact opposite for all it matters. -
I am very upset by all the simplism and lack of understanding of real women going on in this thread. I wonder how many pregnant women in a quandary would confide on anybody with this kind of attitude. Obviously they abort because it is ever so much fun and they do not want anything and know anything but fun. A lot of lecturing and no understanding. I have never seen anybody after a miscarriage spend so much pity for the poor little miscarried kid. But if it is not spontaneous then the embryo seems to be more of a human, in fact becomes a real baby, whereas if it was miscarried a day before noboby would give two hoots for it. I find this disgusting. What? embryos' end only is sad if you can blame a woman for it? What kind of positive influence can somebody have on any woman in a quandary if to start with she is judged and condemned as a criminal? What about a little understanding? What, each one of us is so perfect, so magnificent and so disposable always to care for hours for little kids of needy mothers without means that we can go and preach while unaffected and say how criminal these women are? I suppose that is their fault. Good women do not get in those kinds of situations, right? And proper people do not become drug addicts either, right? We are all supermen and superwomen who would never have children of weak character that would ever be in trouble, right? We are born being clever and unassailable and die... what? Cleverer and mor unassailable still?
May God never judge us like that or Paradise will be a very lonely place.
Salaam