Abortion
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we can't decide whether abortion is good or bad so we'll let god decide it.
That is what I have in mind.
Anyway, if I was to born to a rape victim or an unprepared mother who would shortly put me in the orphanage after my birth, I would rather be aborted.
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peace Farida.I'm not sure I can but I'll try.
The mother is completely in charge of the fetus. It's up to her to take care of it. If she doesn't want to, there's nothing we can do. A dead fetus is better than a mistreated fetus which will turn into either a handicapped or abused child or both. If the father can convince her to keep it until he can take it off her hands, that works too.
Also, just to make it clear, I don't think abortion is necessarily a good thing, it's not something I would encourage. I think it is necessary.
If a teenage girl gets pregnant and is forced to have the child, are we saving a life or destroying several? Will the mother be happy? the father? the child?
Plus, I'm sure there are ways to get abortion illegally. If a woman really wants an abortion, she can probably get one. If we make abortion legal, at least we can make sure that women don't have to go to dangerous lengths to get what they want.
Of course there will be unnecessary abortions, if it is legal. But there will also be unnecessary births. Society pays the price for unwanted children. High abortion rates have been linked to lower crime rates. Society would be better off if all those unwanted children were never born.
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We can make a law that permits parents to kill their own children. How is that any different from killing a fetus?
The difference between a fetus and a born child is that the latter is not dependent upon the mother for survival. That is why we cannot give it the same rights we would give to an actual living human being.So here is my revised understanding, abortion should be allowed (without exception) until the point where the fetus can survive without it's mother. If the mother changes her mind at that stage, there's no point in killing the fetus if we can keep it alive and then put it up for adoption.
We should do all we can to make sure people are well educated so that they make good decisions, and make sure there's a place to go for kids who are abandoned by their parents. Apart from that, I doubt there's much we can do.Peace Lobster
But then I was thinking about this (the last point), and I realized that society would be better off if we killed all the poor or all the drug users or something like that. Or if we allowed only certain people to have kids. I'm not sure about this (I'll have to think about it a bit more) but I think you can always violate the rights of a few to make everyone else happy
Allow me t show you another vision, eliminate all unwanted persons, from foetuses to disabled people to make this world a perfect and burden free world. What about the old people who are refusing to die; old and frail a burden to society get rid of them too. But then there are all those poor and malnourished people; for how long do people of means have to feed them; why not delete them too?
Be sure to leave the educated ones alone but do sterilise the uneducated ones; they will only give birth to a lot of ill brought up children. Don?t kill them though they?re a resource for cheap labour to do the icky jobs. What about the ugly people who can not afford plastic surgery; may as well get rid of them too! Well now you see that is how to tailor a real perfect world. This vision of course is not mine; it was espoused by a famous German Fuhrer by the initials A.H.However there is a think tank now, who have already see the majority of inferior race a burden on a tiny minority the superior race. In order to preserve the intelligence of the humanity they plan to eliminate the ?inferior? races, likely in our lifetime, via the sophisticated use of bio chemicals targeted at a specific race.
peace peacefarida
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Me thinks abortion should be legal and whether or not God approves it He will be the one to judge the perpetrator.
Really!!Btw. how come you are all fighting for the legal right to abortion on a forum dedicated to the research of the Quran? You will never find Quranic justification for snuffing out human life, except in self defence. As for the world that will not abide by AQ? well you have the legal right to abort as many as you like. No problem! It?s a human right yeah? If a woman forgets to take her pill she can just get it done anywhere and soon DIY abortion kits will be available. Happy aborting!
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Allow me t show you another vision, eliminate all unwanted persons, from foetuses to disabled people to make this world a perfect and burden free world. What about the old people who are refusing to die; old and frail a burden to society get rid of them too. But then there are all those poor and malnourished people; for how long do people of means have to feed them; why not delete them too?
Be sure to leave the educated ones alone but do sterilise the uneducated ones; they will only give birth to a lot of ill brought up children. Don?t kill them though they?re a resource for cheap labour to do the icky jobs. What about the ugly people who can not afford plastic surgery; may as well get rid of them too! Well now you see that is how to tailor a real perfect world. This vision of course is not mine; it was espoused by a famous German Fuhrer by the initials A.H.peace Farida,
I'm assuming you think you found the flaw in my argument, but I found it before you did and I this is what I said
The fetus does not have the same rights as a live human. They are different. As long as the fetus's existence depends on it's mother, we cannot treat it as a completely seperate human child. Once it reaches the stage where it has a good chance of survival without the mother (even if it is in the womb), we cannot kill it for the same reasons. Not that I'm saying that a fetus should be killed for no reason at all.
I'm thinking that since the fetus's existence and well being depends upon the mother, it would be wrong for us to let it continue to live when it is not wanted and is not being properly cared for. And as I said, women can get abortions illegally, and that means we'll be starting an underground industry of dangerous abortions performed by unqualified "doctors." And those women that don't get an abortion, they'll abandon the child (which is okay in some circumstances) and there's a good chance of the child being born with some disorder because of the lack of care when it was in the womb.And I don't think that vision would even work. Plus, it would end up making a lot of people unhappy and will take away a lot of freedom. My point was about making this world happier and safer.
And it took me WHILE to realize AH was Adolf Hitler confused -
Really!!Btw. how come you are all fighting for the legal right to abortion on a forum dedicated to the research of the Quran? You will never find Quranic justification for snuffing out human life, except in self defence. As for the world that will not abide by AQ? well you have the legal right to abort as many as you like. No problem! It?s a human right yeah? If a woman forgets to take her pill she can just get it done anywhere and soon DIY abortion kits will be available. Happy aborting!
Peace farida
please don't believe that jankren, or myself "like" abortion, (if you don't mind taking a position in your absence jank). The idea is to give the women the freedom to decide in their own soul and conscience. If abortion is not legal and under medical surveillance, much worse happens...but it'll happen anyway
Also, if you use the search function, you might find that discussions have been taking place about abortion, the moment of abortion, the only reason clearly prohibited being "fear of poverty". Search for example edip yuksel and abortion. Now please, as i know that you have a tendency to jump to conclusions, this does not mean that i share his views. But is to show you, that based on quran, it is possible to argument "in favor" of abortion.
elke
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Peace farida
please don't believe that jankren, or myself "like" abortion, (if you don't mind taking a position in your absence jank).
the moment of abortion, the only reason clearly prohibited being "fear of poverty". Search for example edip yuksel and abortion. Now please, as i know that you have a tendency to jump to conclusions, this does not mean that i share his views. But is to show you, that based on quran, it is possible to argument "in favor" of abortion.
elke
Salaam elke
please don't believe that jankren, or myself "like" abortion,
What makes you think that I was merely replying to your post ...you have a tendency to jump to conclusionsAlso, if you use the search function, you might find that discussions have been taking place about abortion,
I am well aware of the ongoing discussion on abortion here in the UK and USA and other hush hush discussions too.
The idea is to give the women the freedom to decide in their own soul and conscience. If abortion is not legal and under medical surveillance, much worse happens
And my idea is to encourage women to responsibility and to use contraceptives and not to flaunt their right to dispose of a human foetus.
...but it'll happen anyway
Exactly and there is no need to justify it. The only time I thought of this justification was when Bosnian Muslim girls were raped and then forced to give birth.
peace -
peace Farida,
I'm assuming you think you found the flaw in my argument, but I found it before you did
argument, but I found it before you did
and I this is what I said
The fetus does not have the same rights as a live human. They are different. As long as the fetus's existence depends on it's mother, we cannot treat it as a completely seperate human child. Once it reaches the stage where it has a good chance of survival without the mother (even if it is in the womb), we cannot kill it for the same reasons. Not that I'm saying that a fetus should be killed for no reason at all.
I'm thinking that since the fetus's existence and well being depends upon the mother, it would be wrong for us to let it continue to live when it is not wanted and is not being properly cared for. And as I said, women can get abortions illegally, and that means we'll be starting an underground industry of dangerous abortions performed by unqualified "doctors." And those women that don't get an abortion, they'll abandon the child (which is okay in some circumstances) and there's a good chance of the child being born with some disorder because of the lack of care when it was in the womb.Salaam Lobster,
I'm assuming you think you found the flaw in my argument, but I found it before you did
Instead I saw intellegent forsight in your response and delebration which is a good sign and I further enhanced it with a wider well known fascist vision.And I don't think that vision would even work. Plus, it would end up making a lot of people unhappy and will take away a lot of freedom. My point was about making this world happier and safer.
Whether it works or not only time will tell, but surely this Satanic idea is in progress and is likely to take away a lot of freedom. Remember this, Satan always starts by making things look happy and safe but one needs to look to the ulterior motive behind that glimmer of hope.
peace
Ps I am not calling you Satan -
Salaam elke What makes you think that I was merely replying to your post ...you have a tendency to jump to conclusions I am well aware of the ongoing discussion on abortion here in the UK and USA and other hush hush discussions too. And my idea is to encourage women to responsibility and to use contraceptives and not to flaunt their right to dispose of a human foetus. Exactly and there is no need to justify it. The only time I thought of this justification was when Bosnian Muslim girls were raped and then forced to give birth.
peace-
Heyhey what a volcano... D
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i was responding to a reaction of yours to a post from jankren on which i happended to have agreed
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i do not think so
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i did not talk about an ongoing discussion in the us, but on this subject by people that accept quran as their divine guidance - i thought that was quite clear in my post
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encourage woman to responsability sure and contraception - yes, but no , they do not always work
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justification ? the foetus avorted following a rape is no more guilty than the one avorted by any mother that does not want to give birth...
peace lk
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- Heyhey what a volcano... D
the foetus avorted following a rape is no more guilty than the one avorted by any mother that does not want to give birth...
peace lk
the foetus avorted following a rape is no more guilty than the one avorted by any mother that does not want to give birth...
handshake
The guilt trauma has far reaching effects on women who go through an abortion -
Oh please, hands up if anyone has seen a woman abort to "save humanity".
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that's a dig at me? If it is, then you misunderstood my post.
Not a dig at you but definitely a dig at your idea. Women abort because they make mistakes and it's a nice safety net.
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Not a dig at you but definitely a dig at your idea. Women abort because they make mistakes and it's a nice safety net.
Yes.
but my original post wasn't about the reasons women choose abortion. It was that if we make abortion legal the world will be better off. the women could be trying the exact opposite for all it matters. -
I am very upset by all the simplism and lack of understanding of real women going on in this thread. I wonder how many pregnant women in a quandary would confide on anybody with this kind of attitude. Obviously they abort because it is ever so much fun and they do not want anything and know anything but fun. A lot of lecturing and no understanding. I have never seen anybody after a miscarriage spend so much pity for the poor little miscarried kid. But if it is not spontaneous then the embryo seems to be more of a human, in fact becomes a real baby, whereas if it was miscarried a day before noboby would give two hoots for it. I find this disgusting. What? embryos' end only is sad if you can blame a woman for it? What kind of positive influence can somebody have on any woman in a quandary if to start with she is judged and condemned as a criminal? What about a little understanding? What, each one of us is so perfect, so magnificent and so disposable always to care for hours for little kids of needy mothers without means that we can go and preach while unaffected and say how criminal these women are? I suppose that is their fault. Good women do not get in those kinds of situations, right? And proper people do not become drug addicts either, right? We are all supermen and superwomen who would never have children of weak character that would ever be in trouble, right? We are born being clever and unassailable and die... what? Cleverer and mor unassailable still?
May God never judge us like that or Paradise will be a very lonely place.
Salaam
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I am very upset by all the simplism and lack of understanding of real women going on in this thread. I wonder how many pregnant women in a quandary would confide on anybody with this kind of attitude. Obviously they abort because it is ever so much fun and they do not want anything and know anything but fun. A lot of lecturing and no understanding. I have never seen anybody after a miscarriage spend so much pity for the poor little miscarried kid. But if it is not spontaneous then the embryo seems to be more of a human, in fact becomes a real baby, whereas if it was miscarried a day before noboby would give two hoots for it. I find this disgusting. What? embryos' end only is sad if you can blame a woman for it? What kind of positive influence can somebody have on any woman in a quandary if to start with she is judged and condemned as a criminal? What about a little understanding? What, each one of us is so perfect, so magnificent and so disposable always to care for hours for little kids of needy mothers without means that we can go and preach while unaffected and say how criminal these women are? I suppose that is their fault. Good women do not get in those kinds of situations, right? And proper people do not become drug addicts either, right? We are all supermen and superwomen who would never have children of weak character that would ever be in trouble, right? We are born being clever and unassailable and die... what? Cleverer and mor unassailable still?
May God never judge us like that or Paradise will be a very lonely place.
Salaam
Sorry, I don't think I put it too well. The fun comes before the abortion. And I agree that nobody is perfect. But the stats don't say "nobody is perfect, don't worry about it", they say "what the hell happened?". Just to be clear, nobody is being condemned as a criminal. But quranically the foetus after some time period (there is a danger of falling into 6140), is a life and a life deserves a chance.
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But quranically the foetus after some time period (there is a danger of falling into 6140), is a life and a life deserves a chance.
We are getting some clearer now. So there is a time when in fact there is not little baby before birth right? Becaus, talk here was being as if the very self night or siesta there was already a baby there.
As to what anybody deserves, I think there is not precisely the problem. I don't think anybody here is suffering for lack of pious wishes and thoughts. The question is somewhere else, because women also deserve a chance. If it happens that a woman's chance and a fetus chance do not coincide, then the problem is already a little bigger than the woman just wanting to "have the right to abort".
On the other hand, I think that period which that can be understood from 23.14 is the 12 first weeks. Actually abortions are eminently done before, so really what is the problem there? Of course for me the problem would be that abortion is always something that goes against a woman's own nature and powers and therefore, just for that and without going any further , not at all desirable. So, if we are going to deal really with this question, I think we should avoid simplistic formulations that do not improve anything and stigmatyse mostly not very fortunate women from whatever point of view.
Abortion is even worse that battering. Women who go through it do not talk about it, and the things that have been said in this thread explain clearly why. On whom is such a woman to confide? Therefore we continue saying nonsense and they being more close mouthed. And it is weird how no men appear in the picture. When that suits them they are fathers and guardian and what not, but the woman with her problem... nothing to do with them! Fantastic? Of course I am talking about the kind of mindless men that are the counterpart of the mindless women. Only the mindless women are taken to task, by their bodies or their judges. Mindless men... nowhere int eh picture. Great? Where do we expect to go from there?
Salaam
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From Elke,
The idea is to give the women the freedom to decide in their own soul and conscience. If abortion is not legal and under medical surveillance, much worse happens...but it'll happen anyway
Peace,
Why doesn't the man have a say in it? It takes two to tangle.