Abortion
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peace Farida,
I'm assuming you think you found the flaw in my argument, but I found it before you did
argument, but I found it before you did
and I this is what I said
The fetus does not have the same rights as a live human. They are different. As long as the fetus's existence depends on it's mother, we cannot treat it as a completely seperate human child. Once it reaches the stage where it has a good chance of survival without the mother (even if it is in the womb), we cannot kill it for the same reasons. Not that I'm saying that a fetus should be killed for no reason at all.
I'm thinking that since the fetus's existence and well being depends upon the mother, it would be wrong for us to let it continue to live when it is not wanted and is not being properly cared for. And as I said, women can get abortions illegally, and that means we'll be starting an underground industry of dangerous abortions performed by unqualified "doctors." And those women that don't get an abortion, they'll abandon the child (which is okay in some circumstances) and there's a good chance of the child being born with some disorder because of the lack of care when it was in the womb.Salaam Lobster,
I'm assuming you think you found the flaw in my argument, but I found it before you did
Instead I saw intellegent forsight in your response and delebration which is a good sign and I further enhanced it with a wider well known fascist vision.And I don't think that vision would even work. Plus, it would end up making a lot of people unhappy and will take away a lot of freedom. My point was about making this world happier and safer.
Whether it works or not only time will tell, but surely this Satanic idea is in progress and is likely to take away a lot of freedom. Remember this, Satan always starts by making things look happy and safe but one needs to look to the ulterior motive behind that glimmer of hope.
peace
Ps I am not calling you Satan -
Salaam elke What makes you think that I was merely replying to your post ...you have a tendency to jump to conclusions I am well aware of the ongoing discussion on abortion here in the UK and USA and other hush hush discussions too. And my idea is to encourage women to responsibility and to use contraceptives and not to flaunt their right to dispose of a human foetus. Exactly and there is no need to justify it. The only time I thought of this justification was when Bosnian Muslim girls were raped and then forced to give birth.
peace-
Heyhey what a volcano... D
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i was responding to a reaction of yours to a post from jankren on which i happended to have agreed
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i do not think so
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i did not talk about an ongoing discussion in the us, but on this subject by people that accept quran as their divine guidance - i thought that was quite clear in my post
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encourage woman to responsability sure and contraception - yes, but no , they do not always work
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justification ? the foetus avorted following a rape is no more guilty than the one avorted by any mother that does not want to give birth...
peace lk
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- Heyhey what a volcano... D
the foetus avorted following a rape is no more guilty than the one avorted by any mother that does not want to give birth...
peace lk
the foetus avorted following a rape is no more guilty than the one avorted by any mother that does not want to give birth...
handshake
The guilt trauma has far reaching effects on women who go through an abortion -
Oh please, hands up if anyone has seen a woman abort to "save humanity".
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that's a dig at me? If it is, then you misunderstood my post.
Not a dig at you but definitely a dig at your idea. Women abort because they make mistakes and it's a nice safety net.
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Not a dig at you but definitely a dig at your idea. Women abort because they make mistakes and it's a nice safety net.
Yes.
but my original post wasn't about the reasons women choose abortion. It was that if we make abortion legal the world will be better off. the women could be trying the exact opposite for all it matters. -
I am very upset by all the simplism and lack of understanding of real women going on in this thread. I wonder how many pregnant women in a quandary would confide on anybody with this kind of attitude. Obviously they abort because it is ever so much fun and they do not want anything and know anything but fun. A lot of lecturing and no understanding. I have never seen anybody after a miscarriage spend so much pity for the poor little miscarried kid. But if it is not spontaneous then the embryo seems to be more of a human, in fact becomes a real baby, whereas if it was miscarried a day before noboby would give two hoots for it. I find this disgusting. What? embryos' end only is sad if you can blame a woman for it? What kind of positive influence can somebody have on any woman in a quandary if to start with she is judged and condemned as a criminal? What about a little understanding? What, each one of us is so perfect, so magnificent and so disposable always to care for hours for little kids of needy mothers without means that we can go and preach while unaffected and say how criminal these women are? I suppose that is their fault. Good women do not get in those kinds of situations, right? And proper people do not become drug addicts either, right? We are all supermen and superwomen who would never have children of weak character that would ever be in trouble, right? We are born being clever and unassailable and die... what? Cleverer and mor unassailable still?
May God never judge us like that or Paradise will be a very lonely place.
Salaam
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I am very upset by all the simplism and lack of understanding of real women going on in this thread. I wonder how many pregnant women in a quandary would confide on anybody with this kind of attitude. Obviously they abort because it is ever so much fun and they do not want anything and know anything but fun. A lot of lecturing and no understanding. I have never seen anybody after a miscarriage spend so much pity for the poor little miscarried kid. But if it is not spontaneous then the embryo seems to be more of a human, in fact becomes a real baby, whereas if it was miscarried a day before noboby would give two hoots for it. I find this disgusting. What? embryos' end only is sad if you can blame a woman for it? What kind of positive influence can somebody have on any woman in a quandary if to start with she is judged and condemned as a criminal? What about a little understanding? What, each one of us is so perfect, so magnificent and so disposable always to care for hours for little kids of needy mothers without means that we can go and preach while unaffected and say how criminal these women are? I suppose that is their fault. Good women do not get in those kinds of situations, right? And proper people do not become drug addicts either, right? We are all supermen and superwomen who would never have children of weak character that would ever be in trouble, right? We are born being clever and unassailable and die... what? Cleverer and mor unassailable still?
May God never judge us like that or Paradise will be a very lonely place.
Salaam
Sorry, I don't think I put it too well. The fun comes before the abortion. And I agree that nobody is perfect. But the stats don't say "nobody is perfect, don't worry about it", they say "what the hell happened?". Just to be clear, nobody is being condemned as a criminal. But quranically the foetus after some time period (there is a danger of falling into 6140), is a life and a life deserves a chance.
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But quranically the foetus after some time period (there is a danger of falling into 6140), is a life and a life deserves a chance.
We are getting some clearer now. So there is a time when in fact there is not little baby before birth right? Becaus, talk here was being as if the very self night or siesta there was already a baby there.
As to what anybody deserves, I think there is not precisely the problem. I don't think anybody here is suffering for lack of pious wishes and thoughts. The question is somewhere else, because women also deserve a chance. If it happens that a woman's chance and a fetus chance do not coincide, then the problem is already a little bigger than the woman just wanting to "have the right to abort".
On the other hand, I think that period which that can be understood from 23.14 is the 12 first weeks. Actually abortions are eminently done before, so really what is the problem there? Of course for me the problem would be that abortion is always something that goes against a woman's own nature and powers and therefore, just for that and without going any further , not at all desirable. So, if we are going to deal really with this question, I think we should avoid simplistic formulations that do not improve anything and stigmatyse mostly not very fortunate women from whatever point of view.
Abortion is even worse that battering. Women who go through it do not talk about it, and the things that have been said in this thread explain clearly why. On whom is such a woman to confide? Therefore we continue saying nonsense and they being more close mouthed. And it is weird how no men appear in the picture. When that suits them they are fathers and guardian and what not, but the woman with her problem... nothing to do with them! Fantastic? Of course I am talking about the kind of mindless men that are the counterpart of the mindless women. Only the mindless women are taken to task, by their bodies or their judges. Mindless men... nowhere int eh picture. Great? Where do we expect to go from there?
Salaam
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From Elke,
The idea is to give the women the freedom to decide in their own soul and conscience. If abortion is not legal and under medical surveillance, much worse happens...but it'll happen anyway
Peace,
Why doesn't the man have a say in it? It takes two to tangle.
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People may want to note, (Ref - ) - On the day when you shall see it, every woman giving suck shall quit in confusion what she suckled, and every pregnant woman shall lay down her burden, and you shall see men intoxicated, and they shall not be intoxicated but the chastisement of Allah will be severe.
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Yes.
but my original post wasn't about the reasons women choose abortion. It was that if we make abortion legal the world will be better off. the women could be trying the exact opposite for all it matters.I agree with you.Those ladies who are raped or are medically intolerant to pregnancy must be allowed for abortion.(I think it is being practiced in most of countries).But those who get pregnant illegally (just for enjoyment sake) must not be allowed rather punished according to law.If they get aborted ,then it should be considered as a "murder".
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Peace "lobster",
Why is it risky? what do you mean by "risk," exactly?
That's a question that has many answers and no answer.JK- The risk is that the embryo inside the womb would have required consciousness(the amount being irrelvant) after the first trimester.
And this is starting to drift off topic so please remember the point of my post and stick to that. I don't want to discuss when an embryo become a life or the health risks of abortion.
JK- The health risk of abortion as long as they dont hurt the offspring is the woman's own problem, so long as it wouldnt effect her reproductive system in a -ve way or shed have to sterilize herself. Regarding the embryo becoming a life what is your definition of life? The embryo IMO is already living just like the cells. And yes this does not mean we cannot terminate the developing process whilst it has not yet become CONSCIOUS. I made that clear already. GOD Bless!
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Peace "lobster",
The following statement of yours was left unnoticed by myself and i flt the need to comment on itMy point is that if we let women decide whether they want to keep their unborn baby or not, the world will be a healthier, happier place. I think that all the research and statistics back me up on that, and I doubt that you can refute it.
JK- This is only the case if the child has not yet developed consciousness for sure as within the first trimester and i have not seen any statistical test performed on women aborting after that. How can we allow the women to abort another conscious body, since after consciousness that body is no longer the mother's and she has to take full responsibility? GOD Bless!
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Peace all,
Ok i think i have an even more accurate way to define upto what stage abortion of the fetus is fine. But before that i need to clarify the misconception that GOD has made life sacred in a way that we cannot kill it. This is nonsense since all animals, plants and even the cells themselves are ALL LIFE but nobody claims that killing cells for research or animals for meat or plants for food is haram or a sin. So this is nonsense. GOD says in the Quran that THE KILLING OF NAFS/CONSCIOUSNESS IS WHAT CONSTITUTES A SIN. Now i know that with current scinetific knowledge it is still very difficult to quantify this concept but we can say for sure that most part of it lies in the brain whilst another part of it could come from the heart's small neural network too. So i say at whatever stage EITHER the heart starts beating OR the first brain neuron has developed OR both is when abortion should no longer be allowed. GOD Bless!