What Edip Is Trying To Tell Us?

[Raj-ah]

Quran
"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted means of transportation. They will come from the farthest locations."

This is a prophecy and it only is true in Makkah which is in saudi Arabia.

"The Hajj Time", there is no Hajj time in Jerusalem, in another words no one calls us to do Hajj in Juresalem.

Mecca is the only place where People come for HAJJ from all over the world from farthest places in an organized manner, Mecca is the only place where this practice is carried out for last 1500 years every year without any break.
No other place in the world is there we people go for Hajj or are called for Hajj.
Hajj shall be observed in the specified months. Whoever sets out to observe Hajj shall refrain from sexual intercourse, misconduct, and arguments throughout Hajj. Whatever good you do, GOD is fully aware thereof. As you prepare your provisions for the journey, the best provision is righteousness. You shall observe Me, O you who possess intelligence.

Only in Mecca people go for Hajj in specific months, and refrain from Sexual intercourse and misconduct. Where else do people go for Hajj in specified months refraining from Sex etc.?

You shall observe the complete rites of Hajj andUmrah for GOD. If you are prevented, you shall send an offering, and do not resume cutting your hair until your offering has reached its destination. If you are ill, or suffering a head injury, you shall expiate by fasting, or giving to charity, or some other form of worship. During the normal Hajj, if you break the state of Ihraam between Umrah and Hajj, you shall expiate by offering an animal sacrifice. If you cannot afford it, you shall fast three days during Hajj and seven when you return home - this completes ten - provided you do not live at the Sacred Masjid. You shall observe GOD, and know that GOD is strict in enforcing retribution

Where else do people stop cutting their hairs until sacrifice of the animal is done? Where else do people during HAjj offer Kafara in the shape of Fasting during HAjj??

You commit no error by seeking provisions from your Lord by trading. When you file from `Arafaat, you shall commemorate GOD at the Sacred Location. You shall commemorate Him for guiding you; before this, you had gone astray.

Where else do in the world we see trading during Hajj season, and the place Arafat?

If all these things mentioned in Quran combined happen some where else other then Mecca, Then is the case of those who impressed by Jewish and Christian missionaries propoganda say that Kaaba is not the place Abraham was assigned to purify.

Now why the Jews and Christians will not be happy if Muslims disobey Allah's orders in Quran?

[Raj-ah]

OPf

Progress, horrible word. Still disgusting to traditionalists after 1000 years of stagnation...

dig hard but the fact is what arabic word they translated as "Progressive"?

farida

the arguments that Ayman puts forward with the archeological evidence regarding the Kaaba are convincing enough but we need to do more research.

No, they are not convincing at all!
Please read "The Linguistic Footprints of Lehi ? 2002
by Bruce A. Santucci
and also visit the site Islamic awareness.

[Layth]

Salam,

Quran
"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted means of transportation. They will come from the farthest locations."

This is a prophecy and it only is true in Makkah which is in saudi Arabia.

"The Hajj Time", there is no Hajj time in Jerusalem, in another words no one calls us to do Hajj in Juresalem.

Mecca is the only place where People come for HAJJ from all over the world from farthest places in an organized manner, Mecca is the only place where this practice is carried out for last 1500 years every year without any break.
No other place in the world is there we people go for Hajj or are called for Hajj.

That is your reason for accepting Mecca?

Abraham called to the Hajj over 4,000 years ago and people came to Bakka.

You are claiming that we should ignore such facts and look at what the majority of so called muslims have been doing for the past 1,400 year?

Here is what God tells us about the majority

And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you astray; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess. (Qur?an 6116)

And most of them will not believe in God except while setting-up partners. (12106)

I recommend you examine this issue based on the facts of the Quran. Otherwise, if you insist to look to what the others are doing/saying, then you can`t blame anyone but yourself if you are misguided by their teachings.

Only in Mecca people go for Hajj in specific months, and refrain from Sexual intercourse and misconduct. Where else do people go for Hajj in specified months refraining from Sex etc.?

Actually, they don`t. They perform their Hajj in a specific month whereas as you rightly pointed out, the Quran says monthS

As for Arafaat and the other items (Safa and Marwa) you can read what I have written on the subject at detail and decide which location fits the Quran`s description (Mecca or Jerusalem).

[unknownuser]

OPf
dig hard but the fact is what arabic word they translated as "Progressive"?

OK, you do have a point there ;D

[Edip_Yuksel]

OPf dig hard but the fact is what arabic word they translated as "Progressive"?

It was in my earlier draft for verse 665, where I suggested several meanings for the word eBKaR early risers, frontrunners, or progressive. But in my later revision, I deleted the word progressive. Nevertheless, the word PROGRESS is used as a verbal description for muslims in 7437

"For any among you who wishes to progress or regress." (7437).

As for your other allegations, you appear to rely on conspiracy theories and ready to put me in one of your Con-Boxes without even veryfing the allegations. For instance, I do not necessarily agree with all the ideas of those who endorsed the Reformist Translation of the Quran, nor their endorsement of the translation means that they agree with every translation and arguments in it. Furthermore, the endorsers may not also agree with each other. For instance, Kassim Ahmad of Malesia is just on the opposite side of Manji, politically. (I was surprized that you did not mention his name and the name of others, such as Caner Taslaman, Aisha Musa, etc.) If you do not live in the "Black or White" world of fanatics you wil understand the subbtleties I mentioned above.

Regardless, I will be glad to receive your criticism since it will

1. Help you to learn something that you did not know before.
2. Help us learn something that we did not know before.
3. Help us to improve the Quran a Reformist Translation for its next prints.
4. ...

Peace,
Edip

[Raj-ah]

Layth

That is your reason for accepting Mecca?
Abraham called to the Hajj over 4,000 years ago and people came to Bakka.
You are claiming that we should ignore such facts and look at what the majority of so called muslims have been doing for the past 1,400 year?
Here is what God tells us about the majority
And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you astray; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess. (Qur?an 6116)
And most of them will not believe in God except while setting-up partners. (12106)
I recommend you examine this issue based on the facts of the Quran. Otherwise, if you insist to look to what the others are doing/saying, then you can`t blame anyone but yourself if you are misguided by their teachings.

This is very important issue, and I surely want to discuss it with you because this realy affects one's faith.
My reasons for accepting Makkah as Bakkah are following based on Quran

1. "And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted means of transportation. They will come from the farthest locations."

These are words of Allah which were revealed to us through an "Arab" in "Arabic" language 1400 years ago
right? Since these words were revealed there is no single valid "PROOF" repeat single "VALID" proof that People from farthest places in organized manner ever went to any other place for HAJJ.
I have faith in the words of Allah, We can see it with our eyes and it has been seen since the time of "Arab" prophet that people are going to Makkah for Hajj and if they are not going to the correct place as you assume then it means the words of Allah are not true for last 1400 years or so.

2. Please read these Ayats very carefully once again as you have based your arguments on this particular Ayat.

Say, "GOD has proclaimed the truth You shall follow Abraham's religion - monotheism. He never was an idolater."

The most important shrine established for the people is the one in Becca; a blessed beacon for all the people.

In it are clear signs the station of Abraham. Anyone who enters it shall be granted safe passage. The people owe it to GOD that they shall observe Hajj to this shrine, when they can afford it. As for those who disbelieve, GOD does not need anyone.

Say, "O followers of the scripture, why do you reject these revelations of GOD, when GOD is witnessing everything you do?"
Say, "O followers of the scripture, why do you repel from the path of GOD those who wish to believe, and seek to distort it, even though you are witnesses?" GOD is never unaware of anything you do.
O you who believe, if you obey some of those who received the scripture, they will revert you, after having believed, into disbelievers.

Now dear Layth; If Bakkah is in Jerusalem the Jews of the time would have been very happy and at once would have accepted the Ayats revealed, BUT after telling them (Jews & Christians) regarding Abraham and the location of the sanctuary ALLAH says
Say, "O followers of the scripture, why do you reject these revelations of GOD, when GOD is witnessing everything you do?"
It clearly means that Jews and Christians did not agreed with what Is mentioned in previous verses, so after analysing these verses we can clearly tell that Kaaba is not in Jerusalem other wise Jews and Christians would have not rejected but rejoiced.
But they have a time to rejoice now because we are reforming Islam we are reforming the Word of Allah, but Allah clearly says

O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors

Waiting for your Input.

[Bigmo]

Samia
How can be their difference of understanding in Quran in this particular verse, unless and until you deliberately want to change it.

The word used for 'head covering' in this ayat is 'Khumr'. In Arabic this word is specifically and only used for the head covering cloth, you should now this better then me. If God did not mean to direct towards the observance of head covering, usage of such a word seems unnecessary and a cause for confusion, charateristics that the word of God certainly do not possess.
The fact that this word is used and no other is in itself a pointer towards head covering.
Now my stance on this is that it was clear cut order by Allah for the women of that time and by studying the history and culture this confirms, but since it was for a particular time as there are many other ayats as pointed out by me from time to time, we must by Ijtihad allow ourselves to decide it what is modest dress for ourselves within the frame work of Quran.

"End of the story" as sweet Majidah states.

The problem is you are confusing verses in the Koran with divne command. Now the Koran tells the believers to prepare horses and steads for war,it also says He hasgiven humanscattles and animals to ride on so as to alleviate the suffering of travel. It also talks about slaves and talks about standing in line in battle and the striking of the swords. Clearly these verses must be seen at the timeperiod it was revealed and to thepeopl it was revealed to since none of thisis relevant to most of us today.

The koran also talks about the jizya and talks about other things not relevant today. As far as stealing and cutting hands well this is not how Joseph rules on his brethren when he tricked them into thinking that his younger brother stole. Joseph asked his brethren what is your custom regarding this and they said that the criminal should be held in bondage. So different times may have differing penal customs even among the prophets. So why stop at the 7th century? Many of these penal systems were relevantto their times and were practiced by the pagan Arabs themselves and their surroundings. None of the Pagans objected to these legal rulings as they were similar to theirs but they objected to the theology(such as not mentioning the gods during slaughter) and also some of the dietary rules the Koran condemned which they followed. The Pagans refused to accept an after life but had no problms with khimar or cuuting hands of theif or flogging adulterers and so on since it was similar to theirown customs and legal framework.

The Kora says Islam is a religion, while you are treating it as a state.

[Edip_Yuksel]

The problem is you are confusing verses in the Koran with divne command.

Let's see

Now the Koran tells the believers to prepare horses and steads for war,

But, the verse 860 says "any power you can afford" and then provides an example. Interestingly, even the example could be understood differently, in different times. Today, the expression "horse power" is used as a unit to measure the power of machines. I do not find it a simple coincidence.

it also says He hasgiven humans cattles and animals to ride on so as to alleviate the suffering of travel.

Well, somehow you forgot the rest of the verse

168 And the horses, and mules, and donkeys, that you may ride them and as an adornment. And He creates what you do not know. God created trains, cars, airoplanes, and space ships.

It also talks about slaves

Yes, it talks about slavery, but nowhere the Quran justifies slavery. Besides, from the verses critical of slavery we drive very important philosophical and political lessons, which guide us now and perhaps in the future. According to the Quran we should not submit ourselves to anyone accept our Creator, God, who is the ONLY RABB (LORD)

and talks about standing in line in battle and the striking of the swords.

Which verse are you referring to? I do not recall a verse containing the word SaYF (sword) in the Quran.

Clearly these verses must be seen at the timeperiod it was revealed and to thepeopl it was revealed to since none of thisis relevant to most of us today.

Clearly, these verses should be read carefully, with their context in mind; they are as relevant as they were in the past.

The koran also talks about the jizya and talks about other things not relevant today.

Jizya is not an extra tax on People of the Book, but "compensation" or "war reperation" imposed on the agressing party after the war ends. So, we should also critically study the meaning of some key words, which might have been distorted to promote some agendas...

As far as stealing and cutting hands well this is not how Joseph rules on his brethren when he tricked them into thinking that his younger brother stole. Joseph asked his brethren what is your custom regarding this and they said that the criminal should be held in bondage. So different times may have differing penal customs even among the prophets. So why stop at the 7th century?

Because the verse about "cutting-off hands" or "marking the hands" or "cutting the means" of thieves is an "instruction." If we are going to dismiss instructions of the Quran because of your misunderstanding and idolization of your cultural norms, then we will each have our version of Quran in literal sense.

Many of these penal systems were relevant to their times and were practiced by the pagan Arabs themselves and their surroundings. None of the Pagans objected to these legal rulings as they were similar to theirs but they objected to the theology (such as not mentioning the gods during slaughter) and also some of the dietary rules the Koran condemned which they followed. The Pagans refused to accept an after life but had no problms with khimar or cutting hands of theif or flogging adulterers and so on since it was similar to theirown customs and legal framework.

An interesting and nice argument. I am not sure how factual the statements are. I have little time now.

The Koran says Islam is a religion, while you are treating it as a state.

I disagree. Islam is a system involving personal philosophy and conduct, social norms and law, war and peace, politics and economy. Islam is the name of a system where indiduals are free in their religion, philosophy and are encouraged to live together in peace. In modern terminology In political arena, Islam promotes a "federal secular democratic government that aims to establish justice and peace on earth."

Peace,
Edip

[Raj-ah]

Edip Yuksel

As for your other allegations, you appear to rely on conspiracy theories and ready to put me in one of your Con-Boxes without even veryfing the allegations.

Edip Yuksel
Adnan Oktar?s cult engages in group sex and promote anal sex with girls they consider ?concubines?.

Have you verified the above allegation before accusing them? If yes I would like to see the proof.

Edip Yuksel
Adnan Oktar?s cult promotes racism, more specifically, anti-Jewish ideas

What about this Ayat? does it also promotes anti Jewish ideas?
O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors

This does not mean that, I in any way endorse the thought of Adnan Oktar or am his follower, but we want to see a practical Muslim and not the one "Who does not what he says".

[Layth]

Dear Rajah,

This is very important issue, and I surely want to discuss it with you because this realy affects one's faith.
My reasons for accepting Makkah as Bakkah are following based on Quran

1. "And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted means of transportation. They will come from the farthest locations."

These are words of Allah which were revealed to us through an "Arab" in "Arabic" language 1400 years ago
right? Since these words were revealed there is no single valid "PROOF" repeat single "VALID" proof that People from farthest places in organized manner ever went to any other place for HAJJ.
I have faith in the words of Allah, We can see it with our eyes and it has been seen since the time of "Arab" prophet that people are going to Makkah for Hajj and if they are not going to the correct place as you assume then it means the words of Allah are not true for last 1400 years or so.

The person being addressed in 2226-29 is Abraham, not Mohammed. Therefore, if you want your research to be accurate, you need to talk about Abraham and show the fulfillment of this prophecy that occurred over 4,000 years ago when the call to pilgrimage was made - which you have not done.

Also, from what you have written above, I take it that you believe the person being addressed is Mohammed due to the Quran being revealed in Arabic? If so, then this is a very strange conclusion as the Quran was made Arabic 433 so that its recipients could understand it (it encompasses stories and tales of people since the start of man, but all conversations have been made Arabic so we may understand them).

2. Please read these Ayats very carefully once again as you have based your arguments on this particular Ayat.

Say, "GOD has proclaimed the truth You shall follow Abraham's religion - monotheism. He never was an idolater."

The most important shrine established for the people is the one in Becca; a blessed beacon for all the people.

In it are clear signs the station of Abraham. Anyone who enters it shall be granted safe passage. The people owe it to GOD that they shall observe Hajj to this shrine, when they can afford it. As for those who disbelieve, GOD does not need anyone.

Say, "O followers of the scripture, why do you reject these revelations of GOD, when GOD is witnessing everything you do?"
Say, "O followers of the scripture, why do you repel from the path of GOD those who wish to believe, and seek to distort it, even though you are witnesses?" GOD is never unaware of anything you do.
O you who believe, if you obey some of those who received the scripture, they will revert you, after having believed, into disbelievers.

Now dear Layth; If Bakkah is in Jerusalem the Jews of the time would have been very happy and at once would have accepted the Ayats revealed, BUT after telling them (Jews & Christians) regarding Abraham and the location of the sanctuary ALLAH says
Say, "O followers of the scripture, why do you reject these revelations of GOD, when GOD is witnessing everything you do?"
It clearly means that Jews and Christians did not agreed with what Is mentioned in previous verses, so after analysing these verses we can clearly tell that Kaaba is not in Jerusalem other wise Jews and Christians would have not rejected but rejoiced.
But they have a time to rejoice now because we are reforming Islam we are reforming the Word of Allah, but Allah clearly says

Your obsession with what the Jews or Christians think or say is driving your conclusions. The Muslims were facing Jerusalem during the revelation of the Quran and accepted it as their first Qibla - yet, most Jews/Christians did not give a damn and still rejected the revelation of the Quran!

Also, since we are on the subject of Mecca, let us highlight that a town named Mecca is mentioned in the Quran 4824 as a place of hostility to the campaign of the prophet and that, when the prophet was in the center of this wicked town, they were trying to bar his way from reaching the Masjid Al-Haram (i.e. the masjid alharam was never in this town, but was elsewhere).

If anything, Mecca (the one mentioned in the Quran and the one that exists today) is a place of of idolitary, and, since you like talking about prophecies, then let`s talk about the prophecy of 928 where God states

O you who believe, those who have set up partners are impure, so let them not approach the Sacred Temple after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise

According to this, the mushrikeen are forbidden from entering the masjid alharam after this proclamation from God - yet, as we all know - the core mushrikeen (sunnis and shia) have been having access to the Mecca masjid for nearly 1,400 years as you pointed out!

As for Jerusalem, the temple is neither in effect nor has it been used since early after the death of the prophet (with abdulmalik bin marwan possibly being the last to push for its use with his upgrade of the dome of the rock) - also, did you know that Abdulmalik bin marwan ordered an attack on the kaaba in mecca specifically and that it was destroyed by catapults launched at it by the Islamic army? I find it bizarre that a man would go to war with a cube unless he understood that such a place was made out of falsehood and deception.

O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors

Please read what you quote carefully. The verse above says allies and to my knowledge, none here have taken any such allies. We are allied with the believers, not with the mushrikeen or the rejecters.

Now, if you understand allies to mean that you agree with something they may say - then - you have one serious problem and you might as well denounce monotheism since the jews/christians may believe in it as well - God forbid!

[Bigmo]

Let's see

But, the verse 860 says "any power you can afford" and then provides an example. Interestingly, even the example could be understood differently, in different times. Today, the expression "horse power" is used as a unit to measure the power of machines. I do not find it a simple coincidence.

Well, somehow you forgot the rest of the verse

168 And the horses, and mules, and donkeys, that you may ride them and as an adornment. And He creates what you do not know. God created trains, cars, airoplanes, and space ships.

Yes, it talks about slavery, but nowhere the Quran justifies slavery. Besides, from the verses critical of slavery we drive very important philosophical and political lessons, which guide us now and perhaps in the future. According to the Quran we should not submit ourselves to anyone accept our Creator, God, who is the ONLY RABB (LORD)

Which verse are you referring to? I do not recall a verse containing the word SaYF (sword) in the Quran.

Clearly, these verses should be read carefully, with their context in mind; they are as relevant as they were in the past.

Jizya is not an extra tax on People of the Book, but "compensation" or "war reperation" imposed on the agressing party after the war ends. So, we should also critically study the meaning of some key words, which might have been distorted to promote some agendas...

Because the verse about "cutting-off hands" or "marking the hands" or "cutting the means" of thieves is an "instruction." If we are going to dismiss instructions of the Quran because of your misunderstanding and idolization of your cultural norms, then we will each have our version of Quran in literal sense.

An interesting and nice argument. I am not sure how factual the statements are. I have little time now.

I disagree. Islam is a system involving personal philosophy and conduct, social norms and law, war and peace, politics and economy. Islam is the name of a system where indiduals are free in their religion, philosophy and are encouraged to live together in peace. In modern terminology In political arena, Islam promotes a "federal secular democratic government that aims to establish justice and peace on earth."

Peace,
Edip

you said

I disagree. Islam is a system involving personal philosophy and conduct, social norms and law, war and peace, politics and economy. Islam is the name of a system where indiduals are free in their religion, philosophy and are encouraged to live together in peace. In modern terminology In political arena, Islam promotes a "federal secular democratic government that aims to establish justice and peace on earth."

How can Islam be what you say when its only applicable to certain prophets. Noah never had war and peace, neither did Abraham and neither did Jesus. You are mixing muhammad's biography with islam. The Koran comments on these issues because they were relevant to muhammad's life. Islam is the religionof all the prophets and theKoran makesclear what is islam. Islam is the belief in God and judgement day and both these issues the pagans rejected.

I think you are mixing Muhammad's life with Islam. The Koran guides Muhammad based on the issues he faces, however many prophets faced differing issues but all felt the wrath of their people not because of cutting hands or wearing khimar(whatever it is) but because of monotheism and an after life. The Koran tells us that the term "Muslim" was applied to Abraham yet Abraham never set up a community and neither did Jesus. If Muhammad remained in Mecca simply preaching it would not have altered his message one bit. When he migrated to Medina fate madehim set up a community and like any community you need something to organize a society by. Because it was led by him( a prophet) the Koran guided him in setting it up according to what the society understands and considers the norm. All human experience is like that. It is we today who want to live a time period no longer here but existed 1,400 years ago and we call it Islam simply because some of it is mentioned in the Koran. The Koran says Islam is a religion, so lets us ask ourselves what is its message. There are many verses in the Koran that talk about the people of Noah and Abraham and talks about Adam and Eve. History is important but we learn from it and not mimick it.

Islam is the faith in God and judgement day and whoever believes in these is a Muslim. Who follows that with rigtheous deeds shall enter paradise. Other than that the Koran gave no promises.

[Raj-ah]

Layth

The person being addressed in 2226-29 is Abraham, not Mohammed. Therefore, if you want your research to be accurate, you need to talk about Abraham and show the fulfillment of this prophecy that occurred over 4,000 years ago when the call to pilgrimage was made - which you have not done
.

We should convieniently not ignore the facts.

First of all; the person being adressed is Muhammad throught the Quran; via Gabriel.
Secondly let us read the related Ayats

We appointed Abraham to establish the house "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My house for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate.

There is no direct contact with Abraham in this Ayat, it clearly tells us that Some one is talking about a third party, that he appointed Abraham to full fill some duties.

"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage.* They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted means of transportation. They will come from the farthest locations."

You see, only the Followers of Quran go for Hajj because it was conveyed to them by an "Arab" in "Arabic" language.

They may seek commercial benefits, and they shall commemorate GOD's name during the specified days for providing them with livestock. "Eat therefrom and feed the despondent and the poor."

They shall complete their obligations, fulfill their vows, and visit the ancient shrine.

At time of Muhammad this had become an ancient shrine and not at time of Abraham who was the father of nations and was ordered to establish the house.

Those who reverence the rites decreed by GOD have deserved a good reward at their Lord. All livestock is made lawful for your food, except for those specifically prohibited for you. You shall avoid the abomination of idol worship, and avoid bearing false witness.

Layth

Also, from what you have written above, I take it that you believe the person being addressed is Mohammed due to the Quran being revealed in Arabic? If so, then this is a very strange conclusion as the Quran was made Arabic 433 so that its recipients could understand it (it encompasses stories and tales of people since the start of man, but all conversations have been made Arabic so we may understand them).

Yes I do believe that the person being adressed is Muhammad/Prophet. Reciepents were Arabs that is why the Quran was revealed in Arabic and that makes no sense that for Arabic people an Alien prophet was sent, offcourse the Prophet was also an Arab.

Now why have I stressed since beginning on Prophet being Arab and Quran being Arabic, we will know shortly

Layth

Your obsession with what the Jews or Christians think or say is driving your conclusions. The Muslims were facing Jerusalem during the revelation of the Quran and accepted it as their first Qibla - yet, most Jews/Christians did not give a damn and still rejected the revelation of the Quran!

I have no obsessions regarding what Jews or christians say, I am crystal clear and Quran confirms it.

Ok! so according to you Musims were facing Jerusalem during the revelation of Quran.
They (jews and christians) rejected the revelation of Quran because they could not accept an Arabic Prophet.

I will try to rely on Quran instead of history and use history only when needed

The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.
Sayaqoolu alssufahao mina alnnasima wallahum AAan qiblatihimu allatee kanooAAalayha qul lillahi almashriqu waalmaghribuyahdee man yashao ila siratinmustaqeemin

It is a prediction.

We thus made you a central nation, that you may serve as witnesses among the people, and the messenger serves as a witness among you. We changed the direction of your original Qiblah only to distinguish those among you who readily follow the messenger from those who would turn back on their heels. It was a difficult test, but not for those who are guided by GOD. GOD never puts your worship to waste. GOD is Compassionate towards the people, Most Merciful.
Wakathalika jaAAalnakumommatan wasatan litakoonoo shuhadaa AAala alnnasiwayakoona alrrasoolu AAalaykum shaheedan wamajaAAalna alqiblata allatee kunta AAalayha illalinaAAlama man yattabiAAu alrrasoola mimman yanqalibu AAalaAAaqibayhi wa-in kanat lakabeeratan illa AAalaallatheena hada Allahu wama kanaAllahu liyudeeAAa eemanakum inna Allahabialnnasi laraoofun raheemun

Here Allah is giving reason for changing the Original Qibla (in Makkah) to Jerusalem shortly; so the Prophet can distinguish between the believers and non believers.

We have seen you turning your face about the sky. We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.
Qad nara taqalluba wajhika fee alssama-ifalanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha fawalli wajhakashatra almasjidi alharami wahaythu makuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu wa-inna allatheenaootoo alkitaba layaAAlamoona annahu alhaqqu minrabbihim wama Allahu bighafilin AAammayaAAmaloona

Now Allah re-assigns the Qiblah that is pleasing to an Arabic Prophet.
Allah says in this verse that who received the previous scripture know that it is truth from their lord. For that we have to analyse the scriptures.

ven if you show the followers of the scripture every kind of miracle, they will not follow your Qiblah. Nor shall you follow their Qiblah. They do not even follow each others' Qiblah. If you acquiesce to their wishes, after the knowledge that has come to you, you will belong with the transgressors.

[Raj-ah]

continued.....

Now Allah re-assigns the Qiblah that is pleasing to an Arabic Prophet. The Arabic prophet wanted the Qibla to be restored to the orginal, which was established by his fore fathers. Yes I agree with you that to true believers it does not matter
The Arabs of Medina had accepted Islam and they obeyed the Prophet. For them the important thing was to obey him since he was the Interpreter of God's message to mankind. They faced Makkah when praying and didn't ask any questions why Qibla was changed. The Arabs of Makkah were still idolaters. They also heard the news of the change of Qibla from Jerusalem to Makkah. But there is no evidence that any of them, pleased and flattered by this change, came to Medina and volunteered to become Muslims. They remained what they were whether the Qibla was Jerusalem or Makkah.

Allah says in this verse that who received the previous scripture know that it is truth from their lord. For that we have to analyse the scriptures and we will.

Even if you show the followers of the scripture every kind of miracle, they will not follow your Qiblah. Nor shall you follow their Qiblah. They do not even follow each others' Qiblah. If you acquiesce to their wishes, after the knowledge that has come to you, you will belong with the transgressors.

Allah Warns once again that They (jews and christians) will not follow your Qibla and nor shall you follow theirs.

So making it short

The house of Allah more specifically the present house of Allah cannot be in Jerusalem where we are directed to go for piligrimage as is evident from above verses.

Allah Ho AKBar, Allah is Greatest.

[Raj-ah]

Rajah

Allah says in this verse that who received the previous scripture know that it is truth from their lord. For that we have to analyse the scriptures and we will.

"Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them. Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well (Psalm 84 5-6)

The well in this barren valley will remain also a strong evidence that Baca of the Moslem is that which is concerned in this prophecy ,no where else in Palestine is there a barren valley with a well in it .
The Hebrew text also testifies to the same fact . The Hebrew version uses the Hebrew word which reads Baca .

What is the reality of Zam Zam well? no conspiracy theories, any thing factual.

Jesus says " Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. ( Methew (23 37-39)

The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. " (John 419)

Allah Ho Akbar; now just read the verse of Quran

.....Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.

So dear Layth; Why not think on these lines or are there any flaws in them?

[Layth]

Dear Rajah,

From your posts, I can feel your need to believe in Mecca is great, but as the Quran tells us conjecture is no substitute for the truth.

We should convieniently not ignore the facts.

First of all; the person being adressed is Muhammad throught the Quran; via Gabriel.
Secondly let us read the related Ayats

We appointed Abraham to establish the house "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My house for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate.

There is no direct contact with Abraham in this Ayat, it clearly tells us that Some one is talking about a third party, that he appointed Abraham to full fill some duties.

"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage.* They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted means of transportation. They will come from the farthest locations."

You see, only the Followers of Quran go for Hajj because it was conveyed to them by an "Arab" in "Arabic" language.

Firstly, Mohammed was mainly a ?transmitter? of the Quran, not its sole addressee (various groups/people are addressed).

Second, the link between 2226-27 is crystal clear to anyone who reads Arabic.

Abraham, with Ismail, raised the foundations of the shrine and called to the Hajj - and the people came ? you seem to want to do as the sunnis/shia do and re-invent Islam to begin with Mohammed ? which it does not. Islam began long long ago ever since the first prophet was sent - Mohammed was only a follower of what was already established.

They shall complete their obligations, fulfill their vows, and visit the ancient shrine.

At time of Muhammad this had become an ancient shrine and not at time of Abraham who was the father of nations and was ordered to establish the house.

Abaraham raised the foundation and was shown the location which means this shrine has existed long long before. Did it begin with Noah or does it go back to Adam ? that is a question that I leave open. Your conclusion on ancient is clearly wrong.

Ok! so according to you Musims were facing Jerusalem during the revelation of Quran.
They (jews and christians) rejected the revelation of Quran because they could not accept an Arabic Prophet.

I will try to rely on Quran instead of history and use history only when needed

The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.
Sayaqoolu alssufahao mina alnnasima wallahum AAan qiblatihimu allatee kanooAAalayha qul lillahi almashriqu waalmaghribuyahdee man yashao ila siratinmustaqeemin

It is a prediction.

We thus made you a central nation, that you may serve as witnesses among the people, and the messenger serves as a witness among you. We changed the direction of your original Qiblah only to distinguish those among you who readily follow the messenger from those who would turn back on their heels. It was a difficult test, but not for those who are guided by GOD. GOD never puts your worship to waste. GOD is Compassionate towards the people, Most Merciful.
Wakathalika jaAAalnakumommatan wasatan litakoonoo shuhadaa AAala alnnasiwayakoona alrrasoolu AAalaykum shaheedan wamajaAAalna alqiblata allatee kunta AAalayha illalinaAAlama man yattabiAAu alrrasoola mimman yanqalibu AAalaAAaqibayhi wa-in kanat lakabeeratan illa AAalaallatheena hada Allahu wama kanaAllahu liyudeeAAa eemanakum inna Allahabialnnasi laraoofun raheemun

Here Allah is giving reason for changing the Original Qibla (in Makkah) to Jerusalem shortly; so the Prophet can distinguish between the believers and non believers.

We have seen you turning your face about the sky. We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.
Qad nara taqalluba wajhika fee alssama-ifalanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha fawalli wajhakashatra almasjidi alharami wahaythu makuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu wa-inna allatheenaootoo alkitaba layaAAlamoona annahu alhaqqu minrabbihim wama Allahu bighafilin AAammayaAAmaloona

Now Allah re-assigns the Qiblah that is pleasing to an Arabic Prophet.
Allah says in this verse that who received the previous scripture know that it is truth from their lord. For that we have to analyse the scriptures.

I have a feeling from what you have just written that you are a follower of Rashad Khalifa`s doctrine? If so, then we can end this discussion as it will be a waste of time since most followers of Rashad will do anything to prove Rashad right even if it means making the Quran wrong.

Rashad was smart enough to realize that the argument for the original Qibla being Jerusalem and then shifting away from it creates a paradox if Abraham built the shrine in Mecca (as the sunnis/shai claim) then how could they face Jerusalem to begin with! Rahsad fixed this problem by reversing the historic context making them face Mecca first, then face Jerusalem, then back to Mecca.

So making it short

The house of Allah more specifically the present house of Allah cannot be in Jerusalem where we are directed to go for piligrimage as is evident from above verses.

Allah Ho AKBar, Allah is Greatest.

Is that a war cry you are making at the end?

Obviously Rajah you have no inclination to find the truth and, as I pointed out, you will do mental somersaults to prove RK right even if it means making the Quran wrong.

Here is my summary on the subject and I wish you find peace in whatever path you take

• Quran tells us Hajj is to a place called Bakka (396) ? Bakka is recorded as being a name for the approach to Mt. Zion in Jerusalem;
• Quran tells us that Abraham was charged with rebuilding the shrine and calling to the pilgrimage once again (2226-27) ? Previous recipients of the Scripture and their Scriptures all acknowledge the gathering in Jerusalem, but none have ever heard of Mecca Arabia;
• Quran tells us the situation/station of Abraham is located at this site (397) ? Jerusalem has the rock where Abraham supposedly was about to sacrifice his son located on the temple mount, whereas Mecca Arabia has some so-called footprints enclosed in brass;
• Quran tells us that that the location of the pilgrimage is on a high place hence people are approaching it from lower/deep enclosures (2227) ? Jerusalem?s temple mount is on a high place, while the temple in Mecca Arabia is at the base of the valley ? common for temples constructed for idol worship during those days;
• Quran tells us that olives grew at the ?peaceful town? where the prophet was (951-3) ? Jerusalem is abundant in olive trees, while Mecca Arabia has none;
• Quran tells us that a place called Mecca was an obstacle in the way to reaching the restricted temple in Bakka (4824);
• Quran tells us the Qibla was changed twice (2142-144), once away from the restricted temple (as a test) and then back to it again ? the idolworshippers until today acknowledge that the first Qibla was Jerusalem, but they refuse to acknowledge that there was ever a change back;
• The restricted temple has been made off-limits to the idolworshippers since the time of the prophet (92 ? Yet, Mecca Arabia is infested with idolworshippers until today, while the temple mount in Jerusalem has not called the pilgrimage to it and therefore has not received anyone for just as long;
• The controversy and doubt over Mecca were evident in the early days after the prophet?s death whereby the kaaba in Mecca was catapulted and destroyed by an Islamic army while the temple in Jerusalem was honored and upgraded.
• Evidence exists showing mosques built after the death of the prophet with their Qiblas aligned towards Jerusalem ? not Mecca (Cook & Crone).

There are probably a few more points I missed, but you get the idea.

To you is your system and to me is mine.

[Jack]

Peace Layth,

Wow, thank you for that list !

[huruf]

Here is a link I found to this question

http//www.mejliss.com/archive/index.php/t-318548.html

Salaam

[unknownuser]

Dear Rajah,

Here is my summary on the subject and I wish you find peace in whatever path you take

• Quran tells us Hajj is to a place called Bakka (396) ? Bakka is recorded as being a name for the approach to Mt. Zion in Jerusalem; - Quran tells us that Abraham was charged with rebuilding the shrine and calling to the pilgrimage once again (2226-27) ? Previous recipients of the Scripture and their Scriptures all acknowledge the gathering in Jerusalem, but none have ever heard of Mecca Arabia;- Quran tells us the situation/station of Abraham is located at this site (397) ? Jerusalem has the rock where Abraham supposedly was about to sacrifice his son located on the temple mount, whereas Mecca Arabia has some so-called footprints enclosed in brass;
• Quran tells us that that the location of the pilgrimage is on a high place hence people are approaching it from lower/deep enclosures (2227) ? Jerusalem?s temple mount is on a high place, while the temple in Mecca Arabia is at the base of the valley ? common for temples constructed for idol worship during those days;
• Quran tells us that olives grew at the ?peaceful town? where the prophet was (951-3) ? Jerusalem is abundant in olive trees, while Mecca Arabia has none;

Dear Layth
Your article is really very informative
From it is obvious that we should get evidence from extra-quranic sources to explain Quran as you have done in this post.
Would you please provide evidence for the highlighted query ? I will really appreciate it.
Regards

[Raj-ah]

Salaam,

Layth

Dear Rajah,

From your posts, I can feel your need to believe in Mecca is great, but as the Quran tells us conjecture is no substitute for the truth.

How can you be so sure that what I believe is conjecture and what you believe is truth? specially in absense of solid proof on your side; Jerusalem is an ancient city mentioned in many old scriptures if it would have been Jerusalem Quran would have mentioned it right away as it mentioned the city of "Irum" and all the evidences from Quran which I provided in favor of Makkah.

Layth

Firstly, Mohammed was mainly a ?transmitter? of the Quran, not its sole addressee (various groups/people are addressed).

Second, the link between 2226-27 is crystal clear to anyone who reads Arabic.

Adressee of Quran were various groups/people but they were adressed through Muhammad.
And what you said is this

Layth

Quote
The person being addressed in 2226-29 is Abraham, not Mohammed. Therefore, if you want your research to be accurate, you need to talk about Abraham and show the fulfillment of this prophecy that occurred over 4,000 years ago when the call to pilgrimage was made - which you have not done

The person addressed in these verses is not Abraham at all, It is Muhammad who is been told about Abraham That
"We appointed Abraham to establish the house" and then the rest gows on; this is crystal clear for any arabic or non arabic speaker.

Layth

Abraham, with Ismail, raised the foundations of the shrine and called to the Hajj - and the people came ? you seem to want to do as the sunnis/shia do and re-invent Islam to begin with Mohammed ? which it does not. Islam began long long ago ever since the first prophet was sent - Mohammed was only a follower of what was already established.

Dear Layth I think you are getting bit sentimental, and assuming about me which is not true.
Abraham is chosen one and friend of Allah and he established what Allah ordered him. People came to Hajj Yes,
I never said that people never came to Hajj they came for Hajj even before Muhammad at time of Abraham. What I said is that Ismail was appointed the custodian of the shrine/sanctuary, but we see later on the majority of the Prophets came from Isaac and not from Ismael infact no one is mentioned from Ismail except Muhammad.
The focus was therefore Jerusalem, and all sorts of corruptions erupted in Makkah making it house full of idols and idolators, now to get rid of this Allah appointed Muhammad to re-establish the orginal Kaaba and clear it from idols which Muhammad sucessfully did.

Layth

Abaraham raised the foundation and was shown the location which means this shrine has existed long long before. Did it begin with Noah or does it go back to Adam ? that is a question that I leave open. Your conclusion on ancient is clearly wrong.

Now if this is not conjecture then what is this? If it would have been established by any Prophet prior to Abraham, Allah would have mentioned it in Quran, Allah talks about Abraham, and Abraham means "Father of Nations".

Quran
Then we inspired you to follow the religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.
Therefore Muhammad is Following the religon of Abraham and not of Noah or Adam according to Quran, You trying to tell us that the shrine was there at the time of Adam or Noah is hersay which is reported in many Hadith, and has no evidence from Quran.

If Muhammad is following the religon of Abraham, so we can safely assume that Abraham was the first person to establish that House with his son as reported by Quran.

These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?

So very safely from Quranic Ayats we can conclude that it became (house) ancinet Shrine at the time of Muhammad.

Layth

I have a feeling from what you have just written that you are a follower of Rashad Khalifa`s doctrine? If so, then we can end this discussion as it will be a waste of time since most followers of Rashad will do anything to prove Rashad right even if it means making the Quran wrong.

Your inner sense has misguided you dear Layth.
Rashad Khalifa no doubt how intelligent he may be, is not my leader or any sort, neither do I follow any particular person.
Actually Rashad Khalifa and Your thought is quite similar in many aspects, for example he told us that for last 1400 years Muslims were reading a wrong Quran with addition of two verses and
You tell us that for last 1400 years Muslims are going to wrong place for Hajj, neither he had any refrence from Quran for this nor do you have; MAY ALLAH SAVE US FROM THESE MISCONCEPTIONS.

Layth

Rashad was smart enough to realize that the argument for the original Qibla being Jerusalem and then shifting away from it creates a paradox if Abraham built the shrine in Mecca (as the sunnis/shai claim) then how could they face Jerusalem to begin with! Rahsad fixed this problem by reversing the historic context making them face Mecca first, then face Jerusalem, then back to Mecca

I donot know about Rashad, but I explained it to you above, Why?
The Prophets of the time came for their time, The religon of Muhammad who followed Abraham was Final. Abraham appointed Ismail the custodian of House and people continued the Hajj, later on when the focus was shifted to Isaac's children because almost all of the prophets were from him.

Layth

Is that a war cry you are making at the end?

Obviously Rajah you have no inclination to find the truth and, as I pointed out, you will do mental somersaults to prove RK right even if it means making the Quran wrong.

Do you think praising Allah is a "War Cry"? are we so much offended with Allah's name.

Wrong again! I want to find the truth that is why I am here spending time out of my busy schedule.
I have nothing to do with RK's doctrine we are far away mentally.

Hope you will not end the conversation and comment on the quranic Ayats which I posted, rather accusing me of being RK's deciple.

I would comment on the points you mentioned in next post.

Salam.

[Raj-ah]

Layth

• Evidence exists showing mosques built after the death of the prophet with their Qiblas aligned towards Jerusalem ? not Mecca (Cook & Crone).

I will rather take your last point as first because it confirms what I have been saying.

O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors

This is their (Jews and Christian) propoganda which is being carry forwarded by some of our diluded intellectuals.
Please read the following paper in detail which silences the propoganda of Crone and cook.

The Qiblah Of Early Mosques Jerusalem Or Makkah?

M S M Saifullah, Muhammad Ghoniem, `Abd al-Rahman Robert Squires & Mansur Ahmed

Allah Ho Akbar.