What Edip Is Trying To Tell Us?

Layth

Dear Rajah,

This is very important issue, and I surely want to discuss it with you because this realy affects one's faith.
My reasons for accepting Makkah as Bakkah are following based on Quran

"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage. They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted means of transportation. They will come from the farthest locations."

These are words of Allah which were revealed to us through an "Arab" in "Arabic" language 1400 years ago
right? Since these words were revealed there is no single valid "PROOF" repeat single "VALID" proof that People from farthest places in organized manner ever went to any other place for HAJJ.
I have faith in the words of Allah, We can see it with our eyes and it has been seen since the time of "Arab" prophet that people are going to Makkah for Hajj and if they are not going to the correct place as you assume then it means the words of Allah are not true for last 1400 years or so.

The person being addressed in 2226-29 is Abraham, not Mohammed. Therefore, if you want your research to be accurate, you need to talk about Abraham and show the fulfillment of this prophecy that occurred over 4,000 years ago when the call to pilgrimage was made - which you have not done.

Also, from what you have written above, I take it that you believe the person being addressed is Mohammed due to the Quran being revealed in Arabic? If so, then this is a very strange conclusion as the Quran was made Arabic 433 so that its recipients could understand it (it encompasses stories and tales of people since the start of man, but all conversations have been made Arabic so we may understand them).

Please read these Ayats very carefully once again as you have based your arguments on this particular Ayat.

Say, "GOD has proclaimed the truth You shall follow Abraham's religion - monotheism. He never was an idolater."

The most important shrine established for the people is the one in Becca; a blessed beacon for all the people.

In it are clear signs the station of Abraham. Anyone who enters it shall be granted safe passage. The people owe it to GOD that they shall observe Hajj to this shrine, when they can afford it. As for those who disbelieve, GOD does not need anyone.

Say, "O followers of the scripture, why do you reject these revelations of GOD, when GOD is witnessing everything you do?"
Say, "O followers of the scripture, why do you repel from the path of GOD those who wish to believe, and seek to distort it, even though you are witnesses?" GOD is never unaware of anything you do.
O you who believe, if you obey some of those who received the scripture, they will revert you, after having believed, into disbelievers.

Now dear Layth; If Bakkah is in Jerusalem the Jews of the time would have been very happy and at once would have accepted the Ayats revealed, BUT after telling them (Jews & Christians) regarding Abraham and the location of the sanctuary ALLAH says
Say, "O followers of the scripture, why do you reject these revelations of GOD, when GOD is witnessing everything you do?"
It clearly means that Jews and Christians did not agreed with what Is mentioned in previous verses, so after analysing these verses we can clearly tell that Kaaba is not in Jerusalem other wise Jews and Christians would have not rejected but rejoiced.
But they have a time to rejoice now because we are reforming Islam we are reforming the Word of Allah, but Allah clearly says

Your obsession with what the Jews or Christians think or say is driving your conclusions. The Muslims were facing Jerusalem during the revelation of the Quran and accepted it as their first Qibla - yet, most Jews/Christians did not give a damn and still rejected the revelation of the Quran!

Also, since we are on the subject of Mecca, let us highlight that a town named Mecca is mentioned in the Quran 4824 as a place of hostility to the campaign of the prophet and that, when the prophet was in the center of this wicked town, they were trying to bar his way from reaching the Masjid Al-Haram (i.e. the masjid alharam was never in this town, but was elsewhere).

If anything, Mecca (the one mentioned in the Quran and the one that exists today) is a place of of idolitary, and, since you like talking about prophecies, then let`s talk about the prophecy of 928 where God states

O you who believe, those who have set up partners are impure, so let them not approach the Sacred Temple after this year of theirs; and if you fear poverty, then God will enrich you from His blessings if He wills. God is Knowledgeable, Wise

According to this, the mushrikeen are forbidden from entering the masjid alharam after this proclamation from God - yet, as we all know - the core mushrikeen (sunnis and shia) have been having access to the Mecca masjid for nearly 1,400 years as you pointed out!

As for Jerusalem, the temple is neither in effect nor has it been used since early after the death of the prophet (with abdulmalik bin marwan possibly being the last to push for its use with his upgrade of the dome of the rock) - also, did you know that Abdulmalik bin marwan ordered an attack on the kaaba in mecca specifically and that it was destroyed by catapults launched at it by the Islamic army? I find it bizarre that a man would go to war with a cube unless he understood that such a place was made out of falsehood and deception.

O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors

Please read what you quote carefully. The verse above says allies and to my knowledge, none here have taken any such allies. We are allied with the believers, not with the mushrikeen or the rejecters.

Now, if you understand allies to mean that you agree with something they may say - then - you have one serious problem and you might as well denounce monotheism since the jews/christians may believe in it as well - God forbid!

Bigmo

Let's see

But, the verse 860 says "any power you can afford" and then provides an example. Interestingly, even the example could be understood differently, in different times. Today, the expression "horse power" is used as a unit to measure the power of machines. I do not find it a simple coincidence.

Well, somehow you forgot the rest of the verse

168 And the horses, and mules, and donkeys, that you may ride them and as an adornment. And He creates what you do not know. God created trains, cars, airoplanes, and space ships.

Yes, it talks about slavery, but nowhere the Quran justifies slavery. Besides, from the verses critical of slavery we drive very important philosophical and political lessons, which guide us now and perhaps in the future. According to the Quran we should not submit ourselves to anyone accept our Creator, God, who is the ONLY RABB (LORD)

Which verse are you referring to? I do not recall a verse containing the word SaYF (sword) in the Quran.

Clearly, these verses should be read carefully, with their context in mind; they are as relevant as they were in the past.

Jizya is not an extra tax on People of the Book, but "compensation" or "war reperation" imposed on the agressing party after the war ends. So, we should also critically study the meaning of some key words, which might have been distorted to promote some agendas...

Because the verse about "cutting-off hands" or "marking the hands" or "cutting the means" of thieves is an "instruction." If we are going to dismiss instructions of the Quran because of your misunderstanding and idolization of your cultural norms, then we will each have our version of Quran in literal sense.

An interesting and nice argument. I am not sure how factual the statements are. I have little time now.

I disagree. Islam is a system involving personal philosophy and conduct, social norms and law, war and peace, politics and economy. Islam is the name of a system where indiduals are free in their religion, philosophy and are encouraged to live together in peace. In modern terminology In political arena, Islam promotes a "federal secular democratic government that aims to establish justice and peace on earth."

Peace,
Edip

you said

I disagree. Islam is a system involving personal philosophy and conduct, social norms and law, war and peace, politics and economy. Islam is the name of a system where indiduals are free in their religion, philosophy and are encouraged to live together in peace. In modern terminology In political arena, Islam promotes a "federal secular democratic government that aims to establish justice and peace on earth."

How can Islam be what you say when its only applicable to certain prophets. Noah never had war and peace, neither did Abraham and neither did Jesus. You are mixing muhammad's biography with islam. The Koran comments on these issues because they were relevant to muhammad's life. Islam is the religionof all the prophets and theKoran makesclear what is islam. Islam is the belief in God and judgement day and both these issues the pagans rejected.

I think you are mixing Muhammad's life with Islam. The Koran guides Muhammad based on the issues he faces, however many prophets faced differing issues but all felt the wrath of their people not because of cutting hands or wearing khimar(whatever it is) but because of monotheism and an after life. The Koran tells us that the term "Muslim" was applied to Abraham yet Abraham never set up a community and neither did Jesus. If Muhammad remained in Mecca simply preaching it would not have altered his message one bit. When he migrated to Medina fate madehim set up a community and like any community you need something to organize a society by. Because it was led by him( a prophet) the Koran guided him in setting it up according to what the society understands and considers the norm. All human experience is like that. It is we today who want to live a time period no longer here but existed 1,400 years ago and we call it Islam simply because some of it is mentioned in the Koran. The Koran says Islam is a religion, so lets us ask ourselves what is its message. There are many verses in the Koran that talk about the people of Noah and Abraham and talks about Adam and Eve. History is important but we learn from it and not mimick it.

Islam is the faith in God and judgement day and whoever believes in these is a Muslim. Who follows that with rigtheous deeds shall enter paradise. Other than that the Koran gave no promises.

Raj-ah

Layth

The person being addressed in 2226-29 is Abraham, not Mohammed. Therefore, if you want your research to be accurate, you need to talk about Abraham and show the fulfillment of this prophecy that occurred over 4,000 years ago when the call to pilgrimage was made - which you have not done
.

We should convieniently not ignore the facts.

First of all; the person being adressed is Muhammad throught the Quran; via Gabriel.
Secondly let us read the related Ayats

We appointed Abraham to establish the house "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My house for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate.

There is no direct contact with Abraham in this Ayat, it clearly tells us that Some one is talking about a third party, that he appointed Abraham to full fill some duties.

"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage.* They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted means of transportation. They will come from the farthest locations."

You see, only the Followers of Quran go for Hajj because it was conveyed to them by an "Arab" in "Arabic" language.

They may seek commercial benefits, and they shall commemorate GOD's name during the specified days for providing them with livestock. "Eat therefrom and feed the despondent and the poor."

They shall complete their obligations, fulfill their vows, and visit the ancient shrine.

At time of Muhammad this had become an ancient shrine and not at time of Abraham who was the father of nations and was ordered to establish the house.

Those who reverence the rites decreed by GOD have deserved a good reward at their Lord. All livestock is made lawful for your food, except for those specifically prohibited for you. You shall avoid the abomination of idol worship, and avoid bearing false witness.

Layth

Also, from what you have written above, I take it that you believe the person being addressed is Mohammed due to the Quran being revealed in Arabic? If so, then this is a very strange conclusion as the Quran was made Arabic 433 so that its recipients could understand it (it encompasses stories and tales of people since the start of man, but all conversations have been made Arabic so we may understand them).

Yes I do believe that the person being adressed is Muhammad/Prophet. Reciepents were Arabs that is why the Quran was revealed in Arabic and that makes no sense that for Arabic people an Alien prophet was sent, offcourse the Prophet was also an Arab.

Now why have I stressed since beginning on Prophet being Arab and Quran being Arabic, we will know shortly

Layth

Your obsession with what the Jews or Christians think or say is driving your conclusions. The Muslims were facing Jerusalem during the revelation of the Quran and accepted it as their first Qibla - yet, most Jews/Christians did not give a damn and still rejected the revelation of the Quran!

I have no obsessions regarding what Jews or christians say, I am crystal clear and Quran confirms it.

Ok! so according to you Musims were facing Jerusalem during the revelation of Quran.
They (jews and christians) rejected the revelation of Quran because they could not accept an Arabic Prophet.

I will try to rely on Quran instead of history and use history only when needed

The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.
Sayaqoolu alssufahao mina alnnasima wallahum AAan qiblatihimu allatee kanooAAalayha qul lillahi almashriqu waalmaghribuyahdee man yashao ila siratinmustaqeemin

It is a prediction.

We thus made you a central nation, that you may serve as witnesses among the people, and the messenger serves as a witness among you. We changed the direction of your original Qiblah only to distinguish those among you who readily follow the messenger from those who would turn back on their heels. It was a difficult test, but not for those who are guided by GOD. GOD never puts your worship to waste. GOD is Compassionate towards the people, Most Merciful.
Wakathalika jaAAalnakumommatan wasatan litakoonoo shuhadaa AAala alnnasiwayakoona alrrasoolu AAalaykum shaheedan wamajaAAalna alqiblata allatee kunta AAalayha illalinaAAlama man yattabiAAu alrrasoola mimman yanqalibu AAalaAAaqibayhi wa-in kanat lakabeeratan illa AAalaallatheena hada Allahu wama kanaAllahu liyudeeAAa eemanakum inna Allahabialnnasi laraoofun raheemun

Here Allah is giving reason for changing the Original Qibla (in Makkah) to Jerusalem shortly; so the Prophet can distinguish between the believers and non believers.

We have seen you turning your face about the sky. We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.
Qad nara taqalluba wajhika fee alssama-ifalanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha fawalli wajhakashatra almasjidi alharami wahaythu makuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu wa-inna allatheenaootoo alkitaba layaAAlamoona annahu alhaqqu minrabbihim wama Allahu bighafilin AAammayaAAmaloona

Now Allah re-assigns the Qiblah that is pleasing to an Arabic Prophet.
Allah says in this verse that who received the previous scripture know that it is truth from their lord. For that we have to analyse the scriptures.

ven if you show the followers of the scripture every kind of miracle, they will not follow your Qiblah. Nor shall you follow their Qiblah. They do not even follow each others' Qiblah. If you acquiesce to their wishes, after the knowledge that has come to you, you will belong with the transgressors.

Raj-ah

continued.....

Now Allah re-assigns the Qiblah that is pleasing to an Arabic Prophet. The Arabic prophet wanted the Qibla to be restored to the orginal, which was established by his fore fathers. Yes I agree with you that to true believers it does not matter
The Arabs of Medina had accepted Islam and they obeyed the Prophet. For them the important thing was to obey him since he was the Interpreter of God's message to mankind. They faced Makkah when praying and didn't ask any questions why Qibla was changed. The Arabs of Makkah were still idolaters. They also heard the news of the change of Qibla from Jerusalem to Makkah. But there is no evidence that any of them, pleased and flattered by this change, came to Medina and volunteered to become Muslims. They remained what they were whether the Qibla was Jerusalem or Makkah.

Allah says in this verse that who received the previous scripture know that it is truth from their lord. For that we have to analyse the scriptures and we will.

Even if you show the followers of the scripture every kind of miracle, they will not follow your Qiblah. Nor shall you follow their Qiblah. They do not even follow each others' Qiblah. If you acquiesce to their wishes, after the knowledge that has come to you, you will belong with the transgressors.

Allah Warns once again that They (jews and christians) will not follow your Qibla and nor shall you follow theirs.

So making it short

The house of Allah more specifically the present house of Allah cannot be in Jerusalem where we are directed to go for piligrimage as is evident from above verses.

Allah Ho AKBar, Allah is Greatest.

Raj-ah

Rajah

Allah says in this verse that who received the previous scripture know that it is truth from their lord. For that we have to analyse the scriptures and we will.

"Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them. Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well (Psalm 84 5-6)

The well in this barren valley will remain also a strong evidence that Baca of the Moslem is that which is concerned in this prophecy ,no where else in Palestine is there a barren valley with a well in it .
The Hebrew text also testifies to the same fact . The Hebrew version uses the Hebrew word which reads Baca .

What is the reality of Zam Zam well? no conspiracy theories, any thing factual.

Jesus says " Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. ( Methew (23 37-39)

The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. " (John 419)

Allah Ho Akbar; now just read the verse of Quran

.....Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.

So dear Layth; Why not think on these lines or are there any flaws in them?

Layth

Dear Rajah,

From your posts, I can feel your need to believe in Mecca is great, but as the Quran tells us conjecture is no substitute for the truth.

We should convieniently not ignore the facts.

First of all; the person being adressed is Muhammad throught the Quran; via Gabriel.
Secondly let us read the related Ayats

We appointed Abraham to establish the house "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My house for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate.

There is no direct contact with Abraham in this Ayat, it clearly tells us that Some one is talking about a third party, that he appointed Abraham to full fill some duties.

"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj pilgrimage.* They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted means of transportation. They will come from the farthest locations."

You see, only the Followers of Quran go for Hajj because it was conveyed to them by an "Arab" in "Arabic" language.

Firstly, Mohammed was mainly a ?transmitter? of the Quran, not its sole addressee (various groups/people are addressed).

Second, the link between 2226-27 is crystal clear to anyone who reads Arabic.

Abraham, with Ismail, raised the foundations of the shrine and called to the Hajj - and the people came ? you seem to want to do as the sunnis/shia do and re-invent Islam to begin with Mohammed ? which it does not. Islam began long long ago ever since the first prophet was sent - Mohammed was only a follower of what was already established.

They shall complete their obligations, fulfill their vows, and visit the ancient shrine.

At time of Muhammad this had become an ancient shrine and not at time of Abraham who was the father of nations and was ordered to establish the house.

Abaraham raised the foundation and was shown the location which means this shrine has existed long long before. Did it begin with Noah or does it go back to Adam ? that is a question that I leave open. Your conclusion on ancient is clearly wrong.

Ok! so according to you Musims were facing Jerusalem during the revelation of Quran.
They (jews and christians) rejected the revelation of Quran because they could not accept an Arabic Prophet.

I will try to rely on Quran instead of history and use history only when needed

The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.
Sayaqoolu alssufahao mina alnnasima wallahum AAan qiblatihimu allatee kanooAAalayha qul lillahi almashriqu waalmaghribuyahdee man yashao ila siratinmustaqeemin

It is a prediction.

We thus made you a central nation, that you may serve as witnesses among the people, and the messenger serves as a witness among you. We changed the direction of your original Qiblah only to distinguish those among you who readily follow the messenger from those who would turn back on their heels. It was a difficult test, but not for those who are guided by GOD. GOD never puts your worship to waste. GOD is Compassionate towards the people, Most Merciful.
Wakathalika jaAAalnakumommatan wasatan litakoonoo shuhadaa AAala alnnasiwayakoona alrrasoolu AAalaykum shaheedan wamajaAAalna alqiblata allatee kunta AAalayha illalinaAAlama man yattabiAAu alrrasoola mimman yanqalibu AAalaAAaqibayhi wa-in kanat lakabeeratan illa AAalaallatheena hada Allahu wama kanaAllahu liyudeeAAa eemanakum inna Allahabialnnasi laraoofun raheemun

Here Allah is giving reason for changing the Original Qibla (in Makkah) to Jerusalem shortly; so the Prophet can distinguish between the believers and non believers.

We have seen you turning your face about the sky. We now assign a Qiblah that is pleasing to you. Henceforth, you shall turn your face towards the Sacred Masjid. Wherever you may be, all of you shall turn your faces towards it. Those who received the previous scripture know that this is the truth from their Lord. GOD is never unaware of anything they do.
Qad nara taqalluba wajhika fee alssama-ifalanuwalliyannaka qiblatan tardaha fawalli wajhakashatra almasjidi alharami wahaythu makuntum fawalloo wujoohakum shatrahu wa-inna allatheenaootoo alkitaba layaAAlamoona annahu alhaqqu minrabbihim wama Allahu bighafilin AAammayaAAmaloona

Now Allah re-assigns the Qiblah that is pleasing to an Arabic Prophet.
Allah says in this verse that who received the previous scripture know that it is truth from their lord. For that we have to analyse the scriptures.

I have a feeling from what you have just written that you are a follower of Rashad Khalifa`s doctrine? If so, then we can end this discussion as it will be a waste of time since most followers of Rashad will do anything to prove Rashad right even if it means making the Quran wrong.

Rashad was smart enough to realize that the argument for the original Qibla being Jerusalem and then shifting away from it creates a paradox if Abraham built the shrine in Mecca (as the sunnis/shai claim) then how could they face Jerusalem to begin with! Rahsad fixed this problem by reversing the historic context making them face Mecca first, then face Jerusalem, then back to Mecca.

So making it short

The house of Allah more specifically the present house of Allah cannot be in Jerusalem where we are directed to go for piligrimage as is evident from above verses.

Allah Ho AKBar, Allah is Greatest.

Is that a war cry you are making at the end?

Obviously Rajah you have no inclination to find the truth and, as I pointed out, you will do mental somersaults to prove RK right even if it means making the Quran wrong.

Here is my summary on the subject and I wish you find peace in whatever path you take

Quran tells us Hajj is to a place called Bakka (396) ? Bakka is recorded as being a name for the approach to Mt. Zion in Jerusalem;
Quran tells us that Abraham was charged with rebuilding the shrine and calling to the pilgrimage once again (2226-27) ? Previous recipients of the Scripture and their Scriptures all acknowledge the gathering in Jerusalem, but none have ever heard of Mecca Arabia;
Quran tells us the situation/station of Abraham is located at this site (397) ? Jerusalem has the rock where Abraham supposedly was about to sacrifice his son located on the temple mount, whereas Mecca Arabia has some so-called footprints enclosed in brass;
Quran tells us that that the location of the pilgrimage is on a high place hence people are approaching it from lower/deep enclosures (2227) ? Jerusalem?s temple mount is on a high place, while the temple in Mecca Arabia is at the base of the valley ? common for temples constructed for idol worship during those days;
Quran tells us that olives grew at the ?peaceful town? where the prophet was (951-3) ? Jerusalem is abundant in olive trees, while Mecca Arabia has none;
Quran tells us that a place called Mecca was an obstacle in the way to reaching the restricted temple in Bakka (4824);
Quran tells us the Qibla was changed twice (2142-144), once away from the restricted temple (as a test) and then back to it again ? the idolworshippers until today acknowledge that the first Qibla was Jerusalem, but they refuse to acknowledge that there was ever a change back;
The restricted temple has been made off-limits to the idolworshippers since the time of the prophet (92 ? Yet, Mecca Arabia is infested with idolworshippers until today, while the temple mount in Jerusalem has not called the pilgrimage to it and therefore has not received anyone for just as long;
The controversy and doubt over Mecca were evident in the early days after the prophet?s death whereby the kaaba in Mecca was catapulted and destroyed by an Islamic army while the temple in Jerusalem was honored and upgraded.
Evidence exists showing mosques built after the death of the prophet with their Qiblas aligned towards Jerusalem ? not Mecca (Cook & Crone).

There are probably a few more points I missed, but you get the idea.

To you is your system and to me is mine.

Jack

Peace Layth,

Wow, thank you for that list !

huruf

Here is a link I found to this question

http//www.mejliss.com/archive/index.php/t-318548.html

Salaam

unknownuser

Dear Rajah,

Here is my summary on the subject and I wish you find peace in whatever path you take

Quran tells us Hajj is to a place called Bakka (396) ? Bakka is recorded as being a name for the approach to Mt. Zion in Jerusalem; - Quran tells us that Abraham was charged with rebuilding the shrine and calling to the pilgrimage once again (2226-27) ? Previous recipients of the Scripture and their Scriptures all acknowledge the gathering in Jerusalem, but none have ever heard of Mecca Arabia;- Quran tells us the situation/station of Abraham is located at this site (397) ? Jerusalem has the rock where Abraham supposedly was about to sacrifice his son located on the temple mount, whereas Mecca Arabia has some so-called footprints enclosed in brass;
Quran tells us that that the location of the pilgrimage is on a high place hence people are approaching it from lower/deep enclosures (2227) ? Jerusalem?s temple mount is on a high place, while the temple in Mecca Arabia is at the base of the valley ? common for temples constructed for idol worship during those days;
Quran tells us that olives grew at the ?peaceful town? where the prophet was (951-3) ? Jerusalem is abundant in olive trees, while Mecca Arabia has none;

Dear Layth
Your article is really very informative
From it is obvious that we should get evidence from extra-quranic sources to explain Quran as you have done in this post.
Would you please provide evidence for the highlighted query ? I will really appreciate it.
Regards

Raj-ah

Salaam,

Layth

Dear Rajah,

From your posts, I can feel your need to believe in Mecca is great, but as the Quran tells us conjecture is no substitute for the truth.

How can you be so sure that what I believe is conjecture and what you believe is truth? specially in absense of solid proof on your side; Jerusalem is an ancient city mentioned in many old scriptures if it would have been Jerusalem Quran would have mentioned it right away as it mentioned the city of "Irum" and all the evidences from Quran which I provided in favor of Makkah.

Layth

Firstly, Mohammed was mainly a ?transmitter? of the Quran, not its sole addressee (various groups/people are addressed).

Second, the link between 2226-27 is crystal clear to anyone who reads Arabic.

Adressee of Quran were various groups/people but they were adressed through Muhammad.
And what you said is this

Layth

Quote
The person being addressed in 2226-29 is Abraham, not Mohammed. Therefore, if you want your research to be accurate, you need to talk about Abraham and show the fulfillment of this prophecy that occurred over 4,000 years ago when the call to pilgrimage was made - which you have not done

The person addressed in these verses is not Abraham at all, It is Muhammad who is been told about Abraham That
"We appointed Abraham to establish the house" and then the rest gows on; this is crystal clear for any arabic or non arabic speaker.

Layth

Abraham, with Ismail, raised the foundations of the shrine and called to the Hajj - and the people came ? you seem to want to do as the sunnis/shia do and re-invent Islam to begin with Mohammed ? which it does not. Islam began long long ago ever since the first prophet was sent - Mohammed was only a follower of what was already established.

Dear Layth I think you are getting bit sentimental, and assuming about me which is not true.
Abraham is chosen one and friend of Allah and he established what Allah ordered him. People came to Hajj Yes,
I never said that people never came to Hajj they came for Hajj even before Muhammad at time of Abraham. What I said is that Ismail was appointed the custodian of the shrine/sanctuary, but we see later on the majority of the Prophets came from Isaac and not from Ismael infact no one is mentioned from Ismail except Muhammad.
The focus was therefore Jerusalem, and all sorts of corruptions erupted in Makkah making it house full of idols and idolators, now to get rid of this Allah appointed Muhammad to re-establish the orginal Kaaba and clear it from idols which Muhammad sucessfully did.

Layth

Abaraham raised the foundation and was shown the location which means this shrine has existed long long before. Did it begin with Noah or does it go back to Adam ? that is a question that I leave open. Your conclusion on ancient is clearly wrong.

Now if this is not conjecture then what is this? If it would have been established by any Prophet prior to Abraham, Allah would have mentioned it in Quran, Allah talks about Abraham, and Abraham means "Father of Nations".

Quran
Then we inspired you to follow the religion of Abraham, the monotheist; he never was an idol worshiper.
Therefore Muhammad is Following the religon of Abraham and not of Noah or Adam according to Quran, You trying to tell us that the shrine was there at the time of Adam or Noah is hersay which is reported in many Hadith, and has no evidence from Quran.

If Muhammad is following the religon of Abraham, so we can safely assume that Abraham was the first person to establish that House with his son as reported by Quran.

These are GOD's revelations that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His revelations do they believe?

So very safely from Quranic Ayats we can conclude that it became (house) ancinet Shrine at the time of Muhammad.

Layth

I have a feeling from what you have just written that you are a follower of Rashad Khalifa`s doctrine? If so, then we can end this discussion as it will be a waste of time since most followers of Rashad will do anything to prove Rashad right even if it means making the Quran wrong.

Your inner sense has misguided you dear Layth.
Rashad Khalifa no doubt how intelligent he may be, is not my leader or any sort, neither do I follow any particular person.
Actually Rashad Khalifa and Your thought is quite similar in many aspects, for example he told us that for last 1400 years Muslims were reading a wrong Quran with addition of two verses and
You tell us that for last 1400 years Muslims are going to wrong place for Hajj, neither he had any refrence from Quran for this nor do you have; MAY ALLAH SAVE US FROM THESE MISCONCEPTIONS.

Layth

Rashad was smart enough to realize that the argument for the original Qibla being Jerusalem and then shifting away from it creates a paradox if Abraham built the shrine in Mecca (as the sunnis/shai claim) then how could they face Jerusalem to begin with! Rahsad fixed this problem by reversing the historic context making them face Mecca first, then face Jerusalem, then back to Mecca

I donot know about Rashad, but I explained it to you above, Why?
The Prophets of the time came for their time, The religon of Muhammad who followed Abraham was Final. Abraham appointed Ismail the custodian of House and people continued the Hajj, later on when the focus was shifted to Isaac's children because almost all of the prophets were from him.

Layth

Is that a war cry you are making at the end?

Obviously Rajah you have no inclination to find the truth and, as I pointed out, you will do mental somersaults to prove RK right even if it means making the Quran wrong.

Do you think praising Allah is a "War Cry"? are we so much offended with Allah's name.

Wrong again! I want to find the truth that is why I am here spending time out of my busy schedule.
I have nothing to do with RK's doctrine we are far away mentally.

Hope you will not end the conversation and comment on the quranic Ayats which I posted, rather accusing me of being RK's deciple.

I would comment on the points you mentioned in next post.

Salam.

Raj-ah

Layth

Evidence exists showing mosques built after the death of the prophet with their Qiblas aligned towards Jerusalem ? not Mecca (Cook & Crone).

I will rather take your last point as first because it confirms what I have been saying.

O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors

This is their (Jews and Christian) propoganda which is being carry forwarded by some of our diluded intellectuals.
Please read the following paper in detail which silences the propoganda of Crone and cook.

The Qiblah Of Early Mosques Jerusalem Or Makkah?

M S M Saifullah, Muhammad Ghoniem, `Abd al-Rahman Robert Squires & Mansur Ahmed

Allah Ho Akbar.

Layth

Dear Rajah,

Let us agree to disagree...

Peace.

unknownuser

Here is my summary on the subject and I wish you find peace in whatever path you take

Quran tells us Hajj is to a place called Bakka (396) ? Bakka is recorded as being a name for the approach to Mt. Zion in Jerusalem; - Quran tells us that Abraham was charged with rebuilding the shrine and calling to the pilgrimage once again (2226-27) ? Previous recipients of the Scripture and their Scriptures all acknowledge the gathering in Jerusalem, but none have ever heard of Mecca Arabia;
Quran tells us the situation/station of Abraham is located at this site (397) ? Jerusalem has the rock where Abraham supposedly was about to sacrifice his son located on the temple mount, whereas Mecca Arabia has some so-called footprints enclosed in brass;
Quran tells us that that the location of the pilgrimage is on a high place hence people are approaching it from lower/deep enclosures (2227) ? Jerusalem?s temple mount is on a high place, while the temple in Mecca Arabia is at the base of the valley ? common for temples constructed for idol worship during those days;
Quran tells us that olives grew at the ?peaceful town? where the prophet was (951-3) ? Jerusalem is abundant in olive trees, while Mecca Arabia has none;
Quran tells us that a place called Mecca was an obstacle in the way to reaching the restricted temple in Bakka (4824);
Quran tells us the Qibla was changed twice (2142-144), once away from the restricted temple (as a test) and then back to it again ? the idolworshippers until today acknowledge that the first Qibla was Jerusalem, but they refuse to acknowledge that there was ever a change back;
The restricted temple has been made off-limits to the idolworshippers since the time of the prophet (92 ? Yet, Mecca Arabia is infested with idolworshippers until today, while the temple mount in Jerusalem has not called the pilgrimage to it and therefore has not received anyone for just as long;
The controversy and doubt over Mecca were evident in the early days after the prophet?s death whereby the kaaba in Mecca was catapulted and destroyed by an Islamic army while the temple in Jerusalem was honored and upgraded.
Evidence exists showing mosques built after the death of the prophet with their Qiblas aligned towards Jerusalem ? not Mecca (Cook & Crone).

There are probably a few more points I missed, but you get the idea.

To you is your system and to me is mine.

Would you please provide evidence for the highlighted queries in your post? Or these are claims just for the sake of claims without any concrete evidence?
Regards

Edip_Yuksel

Dear Layth
Very interesting points and inshallah I will study them.

Peace,
Edip

Dear Rajah,

From your posts, I can feel your need to believe in Mecca is great, but as the Quran tells us conjecture is no substitute for the truth.

Firstly, Mohammed was mainly a ?transmitter? of the Quran, not its sole addressee (various groups/people are addressed).

Second, the link between 2226-27 is crystal clear to anyone who reads Arabic.

Abraham, with Ismail, raised the foundations of the shrine and called to the Hajj - and the people came ? you seem to want to do as the sunnis/shia do and re-invent Islam to begin with Mohammed ? which it does not. Islam began long long ago ever since the first prophet was sent - Mohammed was only a follower of what was already established.

Abaraham raised the foundation and was shown the location which means this shrine has existed long long before. Did it begin with Noah or does it go back to Adam ? that is a question that I leave open. Your conclusion on ancient is clearly wrong.

I have a feeling from what you have just written that you are a follower of Rashad Khalifa`s doctrine? If so, then we can end this discussion as it will be a waste of time since most followers of Rashad will do anything to prove Rashad right even if it means making the Quran wrong.

Rashad was smart enough to realize that the argument for the original Qibla being Jerusalem and then shifting away from it creates a paradox if Abraham built the shrine in Mecca (as the sunnis/shai claim) then how could they face Jerusalem to begin with! Rahsad fixed this problem by reversing the historic context making them face Mecca first, then face Jerusalem, then back to Mecca.

Is that a war cry you are making at the end?

Obviously Rajah you have no inclination to find the truth and, as I pointed out, you will do mental somersaults to prove RK right even if it means making the Quran wrong.

Here is my summary on the subject and I wish you find peace in whatever path you take

Quran tells us Hajj is to a place called Bakka (396) ? Bakka is recorded as being a name for the approach to Mt. Zion in Jerusalem;
Quran tells us that Abraham was charged with rebuilding the shrine and calling to the pilgrimage once again (2226-27) ? Previous recipients of the Scripture and their Scriptures all acknowledge the gathering in Jerusalem, but none have ever heard of Mecca Arabia;
Quran tells us the situation/station of Abraham is located at this site (397) ? Jerusalem has the rock where Abraham supposedly was about to sacrifice his son located on the temple mount, whereas Mecca Arabia has some so-called footprints enclosed in brass;
Quran tells us that that the location of the pilgrimage is on a high place hence people are approaching it from lower/deep enclosures (2227) ? Jerusalem?s temple mount is on a high place, while the temple in Mecca Arabia is at the base of the valley ? common for temples constructed for idol worship during those days;
Quran tells us that olives grew at the ?peaceful town? where the prophet was (951-3) ? Jerusalem is abundant in olive trees, while Mecca Arabia has none;
Quran tells us that a place called Mecca was an obstacle in the way to reaching the restricted temple in Bakka (4824);
Quran tells us the Qibla was changed twice (2142-144), once away from the restricted temple (as a test) and then back to it again ? the idolworshippers until today acknowledge that the first Qibla was Jerusalem, but they refuse to acknowledge that there was ever a change back;
The restricted temple has been made off-limits to the idolworshippers since the time of the prophet (92 ? Yet, Mecca Arabia is infested with idolworshippers until today, while the temple mount in Jerusalem has not called the pilgrimage to it and therefore has not received anyone for just as long;
The controversy and doubt over Mecca were evident in the early days after the prophet?s death whereby the kaaba in Mecca was catapulted and destroyed by an Islamic army while the temple in Jerusalem was honored and upgraded.
Evidence exists showing mosques built after the death of the prophet with their Qiblas aligned towards Jerusalem ? not Mecca (Cook & Crone).

There are probably a few more points I missed, but you get the idea.

To you is your system and to me is mine.

adjwi

Peace,

I disagree. Islam is a system involving personal philosophy and conduct, social norms and law, war and peace, politics and economy. Islam is the name of a system where indiduals are free in their religion, philosophy and are encouraged to live together in peace. In modern terminology In political arena, Islam promotes a "federal secular democratic government that aims to establish justice and peace on earth."

Edip, would you be expressing what Islam is rather than your point of view?

I fail to see any system of governance within Islam which would be secular, in ignorance of the creator. Come on, your serious? Secular governance is but a reaction to religious, dogmatic tyranny which doesn't solve the problem of tyranny, simply displaces it to a different base of ignorance. Still, it's ignorance. Silly stuff.

adjwi

Edip_Yuksel

Dear Adjwi,

Pay attention to the term "federal secular" and reflect on Muhammad's leadership in Medina's multi-religious and multi-cultural diverse population. And also reflect on the fact that each group (jews, christians, mushriks or pagans) were free to follow their own legal system accepted by the treaty led by Muhammad. Furthermore, take a lesson from the fact that the Quran puts the rule of law above the religious affiliation.

Get out of the Umayyad and Abbasid box, and reflect a bit on the message of the Quran

Peace,
Edip

unknownuser

Dear Adjwi,

Pay attention to the term "federal secular" and reflect on Muhammad's leadership in Medina's multi-religious and multi-cultural diverse population. And also reflect on the fact that each group (jews, christians, mushriks or pagans) were free to follow their own legal system accepted by the treaty led by Muhammad. Furthermore, take a lesson from the fact that the Quran puts the rule of law above the religious affiliation.

Get out of the Umayyad and Abbasid box, and reflect a bit on the message of the Quran )

Peace,
Edip

Do you really think that Muhammad (PBUH) practiced real Quranic system in Madina and that needs to be followed and can be quoted as an example?

adjwi

Peace all, Edip,

Pay attention to the term "federal secular" ...

Edip, that's exactly what caught my attention, especially the secular part.

And also reflect on the fact that each group (jews, christians, mushriks or pagans) were free to follow their own legal system accepted by the treaty led by Muhammad.

This ''freedom'' is my understanding of what islam is. Muhammad was not applying a secular principle, simply what islam should be. This stems from an understanding of the revelation, not from some some sole human reflection.

Get out of the Umayyad and Abbasid box, and reflect a bit on the message of the Quran

Edip, the little I know of you I recognize you here. You are absolutely ignorant as to whare I am and once again you have exposed your ignorance for all to see with this statement.

A federal secular democratic system? Any such system exist today? A reference? Are you being payed to say this or simply being ''politically correct'' ?

adjwi

Bigmo

Peace all, Edip,

Edip, that's exactly what caught my attention, especially the secular part.

This ''freedom'' is my understanding of what islam is. Muhammad was not applying a secular principle, simply what islam should be. This stems from an understanding of the revelation, not from some some sole human reflection.

Edip, the little I know of you I recognize you here. You are absolutely ignorant as to whare I am and once again you have exposed your ignorance for all to see with this statement.

A federal secular democratic system? Any such system exist today? A reference? Are you being payed to say this or simply being ''politically correct'' ?

adjwi

Terms don't mean anything. I think he ist alking about Muhammad's Medina treaty. However that was built under a tribal system since that s how the society was structured. It was not built under citizenship since there was nothing called citizenship back then. Secular from a Koranic point of view is seperating whats for humans from whats for God. Salat, Zakat and faith is for God. You will get rewarded in the afterlife. The Koran came to remind people of these duties and to warn about judgement day. My difference with Edip is that he only looks at the Muhammad's biography and legacy and ignores the rest of the prophets. While Muhammad led and ruled a community, many other prophet never did. But all preached and all warned and all said the same thing. Since the Koran was sent to Muhammad its fairly normal for it to guide Muhammad into establishing a community. But to say that this was the intended message of the Koran and this was the prophet's job responsibility is absolutely wrong. This was a historic accident and temporary need. Many ayother prophets were sent without the need to establish a community yet that did not sway them one bit from fulfilling their duties. We must look at the prophets as a whole and not just Muhammad's legacy.

The koran tells us what was Muhammad sent for and what his job was.

2256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

1682 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .

6107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

479-80 Say'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper.

1753-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.

24.54. Say "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

8821 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

3941 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

426 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....

6412 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

6725 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner

09.1-6 Say O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.

Muhamad was a warner, a preacher and a deliverer of a message. As where all the prophets. Federal secularism? hmm

unknownuser

Muhamad was a warner, a preacher and a deliverer of a message. As where all the prophets. Federal secularism? hmm

Dear Bigmo
You are taking Muhammad PBUH as a warner only .While Edip is quoting him for establishing a secular Islamic state .It means Edip thinks that Sunna is an authority and it should be quoted for explanantion of quranic system .Good change on the part of Edip.