What Edip Is Trying To Tell Us?

Raj-ah

Layth

Evidence exists showing mosques built after the death of the prophet with their Qiblas aligned towards Jerusalem ? not Mecca (Cook & Crone).

I will rather take your last point as first because it confirms what I have been saying.

O you who believe, do not take Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors

This is their (Jews and Christian) propoganda which is being carry forwarded by some of our diluded intellectuals.
Please read the following paper in detail which silences the propoganda of Crone and cook.

The Qiblah Of Early Mosques Jerusalem Or Makkah?

M S M Saifullah, Muhammad Ghoniem, `Abd al-Rahman Robert Squires & Mansur Ahmed

Allah Ho Akbar.

Layth

Dear Rajah,

Let us agree to disagree...

Peace.

unknownuser

Here is my summary on the subject and I wish you find peace in whatever path you take

Quran tells us Hajj is to a place called Bakka (396) ? Bakka is recorded as being a name for the approach to Mt. Zion in Jerusalem; - Quran tells us that Abraham was charged with rebuilding the shrine and calling to the pilgrimage once again (2226-27) ? Previous recipients of the Scripture and their Scriptures all acknowledge the gathering in Jerusalem, but none have ever heard of Mecca Arabia;
Quran tells us the situation/station of Abraham is located at this site (397) ? Jerusalem has the rock where Abraham supposedly was about to sacrifice his son located on the temple mount, whereas Mecca Arabia has some so-called footprints enclosed in brass;
Quran tells us that that the location of the pilgrimage is on a high place hence people are approaching it from lower/deep enclosures (2227) ? Jerusalem?s temple mount is on a high place, while the temple in Mecca Arabia is at the base of the valley ? common for temples constructed for idol worship during those days;
Quran tells us that olives grew at the ?peaceful town? where the prophet was (951-3) ? Jerusalem is abundant in olive trees, while Mecca Arabia has none;
Quran tells us that a place called Mecca was an obstacle in the way to reaching the restricted temple in Bakka (4824);
Quran tells us the Qibla was changed twice (2142-144), once away from the restricted temple (as a test) and then back to it again ? the idolworshippers until today acknowledge that the first Qibla was Jerusalem, but they refuse to acknowledge that there was ever a change back;
The restricted temple has been made off-limits to the idolworshippers since the time of the prophet (92 ? Yet, Mecca Arabia is infested with idolworshippers until today, while the temple mount in Jerusalem has not called the pilgrimage to it and therefore has not received anyone for just as long;
The controversy and doubt over Mecca were evident in the early days after the prophet?s death whereby the kaaba in Mecca was catapulted and destroyed by an Islamic army while the temple in Jerusalem was honored and upgraded.
Evidence exists showing mosques built after the death of the prophet with their Qiblas aligned towards Jerusalem ? not Mecca (Cook & Crone).

There are probably a few more points I missed, but you get the idea.

To you is your system and to me is mine.

Would you please provide evidence for the highlighted queries in your post? Or these are claims just for the sake of claims without any concrete evidence?
Regards

Edip_Yuksel

Dear Layth
Very interesting points and inshallah I will study them.

Peace,
Edip

Dear Rajah,

From your posts, I can feel your need to believe in Mecca is great, but as the Quran tells us conjecture is no substitute for the truth.

Firstly, Mohammed was mainly a ?transmitter? of the Quran, not its sole addressee (various groups/people are addressed).

Second, the link between 2226-27 is crystal clear to anyone who reads Arabic.

Abraham, with Ismail, raised the foundations of the shrine and called to the Hajj - and the people came ? you seem to want to do as the sunnis/shia do and re-invent Islam to begin with Mohammed ? which it does not. Islam began long long ago ever since the first prophet was sent - Mohammed was only a follower of what was already established.

Abaraham raised the foundation and was shown the location which means this shrine has existed long long before. Did it begin with Noah or does it go back to Adam ? that is a question that I leave open. Your conclusion on ancient is clearly wrong.

I have a feeling from what you have just written that you are a follower of Rashad Khalifa`s doctrine? If so, then we can end this discussion as it will be a waste of time since most followers of Rashad will do anything to prove Rashad right even if it means making the Quran wrong.

Rashad was smart enough to realize that the argument for the original Qibla being Jerusalem and then shifting away from it creates a paradox if Abraham built the shrine in Mecca (as the sunnis/shai claim) then how could they face Jerusalem to begin with! Rahsad fixed this problem by reversing the historic context making them face Mecca first, then face Jerusalem, then back to Mecca.

Is that a war cry you are making at the end?

Obviously Rajah you have no inclination to find the truth and, as I pointed out, you will do mental somersaults to prove RK right even if it means making the Quran wrong.

Here is my summary on the subject and I wish you find peace in whatever path you take

Quran tells us Hajj is to a place called Bakka (396) ? Bakka is recorded as being a name for the approach to Mt. Zion in Jerusalem;
Quran tells us that Abraham was charged with rebuilding the shrine and calling to the pilgrimage once again (2226-27) ? Previous recipients of the Scripture and their Scriptures all acknowledge the gathering in Jerusalem, but none have ever heard of Mecca Arabia;
Quran tells us the situation/station of Abraham is located at this site (397) ? Jerusalem has the rock where Abraham supposedly was about to sacrifice his son located on the temple mount, whereas Mecca Arabia has some so-called footprints enclosed in brass;
Quran tells us that that the location of the pilgrimage is on a high place hence people are approaching it from lower/deep enclosures (2227) ? Jerusalem?s temple mount is on a high place, while the temple in Mecca Arabia is at the base of the valley ? common for temples constructed for idol worship during those days;
Quran tells us that olives grew at the ?peaceful town? where the prophet was (951-3) ? Jerusalem is abundant in olive trees, while Mecca Arabia has none;
Quran tells us that a place called Mecca was an obstacle in the way to reaching the restricted temple in Bakka (4824);
Quran tells us the Qibla was changed twice (2142-144), once away from the restricted temple (as a test) and then back to it again ? the idolworshippers until today acknowledge that the first Qibla was Jerusalem, but they refuse to acknowledge that there was ever a change back;
The restricted temple has been made off-limits to the idolworshippers since the time of the prophet (92 ? Yet, Mecca Arabia is infested with idolworshippers until today, while the temple mount in Jerusalem has not called the pilgrimage to it and therefore has not received anyone for just as long;
The controversy and doubt over Mecca were evident in the early days after the prophet?s death whereby the kaaba in Mecca was catapulted and destroyed by an Islamic army while the temple in Jerusalem was honored and upgraded.
Evidence exists showing mosques built after the death of the prophet with their Qiblas aligned towards Jerusalem ? not Mecca (Cook & Crone).

There are probably a few more points I missed, but you get the idea.

To you is your system and to me is mine.

adjwi

Peace,

I disagree. Islam is a system involving personal philosophy and conduct, social norms and law, war and peace, politics and economy. Islam is the name of a system where indiduals are free in their religion, philosophy and are encouraged to live together in peace. In modern terminology In political arena, Islam promotes a "federal secular democratic government that aims to establish justice and peace on earth."

Edip, would you be expressing what Islam is rather than your point of view?

I fail to see any system of governance within Islam which would be secular, in ignorance of the creator. Come on, your serious? Secular governance is but a reaction to religious, dogmatic tyranny which doesn't solve the problem of tyranny, simply displaces it to a different base of ignorance. Still, it's ignorance. Silly stuff.

adjwi

Edip_Yuksel

Dear Adjwi,

Pay attention to the term "federal secular" and reflect on Muhammad's leadership in Medina's multi-religious and multi-cultural diverse population. And also reflect on the fact that each group (jews, christians, mushriks or pagans) were free to follow their own legal system accepted by the treaty led by Muhammad. Furthermore, take a lesson from the fact that the Quran puts the rule of law above the religious affiliation.

Get out of the Umayyad and Abbasid box, and reflect a bit on the message of the Quran

Peace,
Edip

unknownuser

Dear Adjwi,

Pay attention to the term "federal secular" and reflect on Muhammad's leadership in Medina's multi-religious and multi-cultural diverse population. And also reflect on the fact that each group (jews, christians, mushriks or pagans) were free to follow their own legal system accepted by the treaty led by Muhammad. Furthermore, take a lesson from the fact that the Quran puts the rule of law above the religious affiliation.

Get out of the Umayyad and Abbasid box, and reflect a bit on the message of the Quran )

Peace,
Edip

Do you really think that Muhammad (PBUH) practiced real Quranic system in Madina and that needs to be followed and can be quoted as an example?

adjwi

Peace all, Edip,

Pay attention to the term "federal secular" ...

Edip, that's exactly what caught my attention, especially the secular part.

And also reflect on the fact that each group (jews, christians, mushriks or pagans) were free to follow their own legal system accepted by the treaty led by Muhammad.

This ''freedom'' is my understanding of what islam is. Muhammad was not applying a secular principle, simply what islam should be. This stems from an understanding of the revelation, not from some some sole human reflection.

Get out of the Umayyad and Abbasid box, and reflect a bit on the message of the Quran

Edip, the little I know of you I recognize you here. You are absolutely ignorant as to whare I am and once again you have exposed your ignorance for all to see with this statement.

A federal secular democratic system? Any such system exist today? A reference? Are you being payed to say this or simply being ''politically correct'' ?

adjwi

Bigmo

Peace all, Edip,

Edip, that's exactly what caught my attention, especially the secular part.

This ''freedom'' is my understanding of what islam is. Muhammad was not applying a secular principle, simply what islam should be. This stems from an understanding of the revelation, not from some some sole human reflection.

Edip, the little I know of you I recognize you here. You are absolutely ignorant as to whare I am and once again you have exposed your ignorance for all to see with this statement.

A federal secular democratic system? Any such system exist today? A reference? Are you being payed to say this or simply being ''politically correct'' ?

adjwi

Terms don't mean anything. I think he ist alking about Muhammad's Medina treaty. However that was built under a tribal system since that s how the society was structured. It was not built under citizenship since there was nothing called citizenship back then. Secular from a Koranic point of view is seperating whats for humans from whats for God. Salat, Zakat and faith is for God. You will get rewarded in the afterlife. The Koran came to remind people of these duties and to warn about judgement day. My difference with Edip is that he only looks at the Muhammad's biography and legacy and ignores the rest of the prophets. While Muhammad led and ruled a community, many other prophet never did. But all preached and all warned and all said the same thing. Since the Koran was sent to Muhammad its fairly normal for it to guide Muhammad into establishing a community. But to say that this was the intended message of the Koran and this was the prophet's job responsibility is absolutely wrong. This was a historic accident and temporary need. Many ayother prophets were sent without the need to establish a community yet that did not sway them one bit from fulfilling their duties. We must look at the prophets as a whole and not just Muhammad's legacy.

The koran tells us what was Muhammad sent for and what his job was.

2256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.

1682 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .

6107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.

479-80 Say'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper.

1753-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.

24.54. Say "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

8821 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.

3941 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.

426 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....

6412 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.

6725 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner

09.1-6 Say O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.

Muhamad was a warner, a preacher and a deliverer of a message. As where all the prophets. Federal secularism? hmm

unknownuser

Muhamad was a warner, a preacher and a deliverer of a message. As where all the prophets. Federal secularism? hmm

Dear Bigmo
You are taking Muhammad PBUH as a warner only .While Edip is quoting him for establishing a secular Islamic state .It means Edip thinks that Sunna is an authority and it should be quoted for explanantion of quranic system .Good change on the part of Edip.

Bigmo

Dear Bigmo
You are taking Muhammad PBUH as a warner only .While Edip is quoting him for establishing a secular Islamic state .It means Edip thinks that Sunna is an authority and it should be quoted for explanantion of quranic system .Good change on the part of Edip.

I am taking? Or the Koran is stating?

unknownuser

I am taking? Or the Koran is stating?

He had many rolls to perform
-Reading the book to the people
-Teaching the book to the people
-teaching the Hikmah
-purifying the souls
-making decisions among the people
Al-Quran clearly states

3321
(3321) There was indeed the best model for you in the Messenger of Allah, *34 for every such person who looks forward to Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah much.

Bigmo

He had many rolls to perform
-Reading the book to the people
-Teaching the book to the people
-teaching the Hikmah
-purifying the souls
-making decisions among the people
Al-Quran clearly states

3321
(3321) There was indeed the best model for you in the Messenger of Allah, *34 for every such person who looks forward to Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah much.

4328 This example (of Abraham) was rendered an everlasting lesson for subsequent generations; perhaps they redeem their souls.

16.120. Abraham was indeed a model, devoutly obedient to God, (and) true in Faith, and he joined not gods with God.

So Abraham was also a secular federalist?

When the koran say

6.123. So We have taught thee the inspired (Message), "Follow the ways of Abraham the True in Faith, and he joined not gods with God."

How do we follow his way, by applying a secular federalist state? Can we also follow Jesus's way? And what kind of state was Jesus's way? A secular federalist one?

unknownuser

4328 This example (of Abraham) was rendered an everlasting lesson for subsequent generations; perhaps they redeem their souls.

16.120. Abraham was indeed a model, devoutly obedient to God, (and) true in Faith, and he joined not gods with God.

So Abraham was also a secular federalist?

When the koran say

6.123. So We have taught thee the inspired (Message), "Follow the ways of Abraham the True in Faith, and he joined not gods with God."

How do we follow his way, by applying a secular federalist state? Can we also follow Jesus's way? And what kind of state was Jesus's way? A secular federalist one?

Common sense
Follow the latest edition of all these examples as you follow latest research or latest edition of any book.
Regards

Bigmo

Common sense
Follow the latest edition of all these examples as you follow latest research or latest edition of any book.
Regards

The latest research was 1,400 years ago! hypno

unknownuser

The latest research was 1,400 years ago! hypno

Yes my dear brother
1400 yrs ago a personality came into the world for which Prophet Abraham PBUH especially prayed

2129

Is this not something very glorious that Prophet Abraham is praying for that great Prophet PBUH.

The second reason through this great Prophet PBUH ,Islam the greatest boon of God on the human being was completed.

Third reason is Allah Himself declared

813
008.013
YUSUFALI This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.
PICKTHAL That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment.
SHAKIR This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Messenger; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Messenger-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

It is this Prophet PBUH about Allah is declaring a decree by "swearing"

465
(465) But no, by your Lord, they cannot become true be-lievers until they seek your arbitration in all matters on which they disagree among themselves, and then find not the least vexation in their hearts over what you have decided, and accept it in willing submission

Bigmo

Yes my dear brother
1400 yrs ago a personality came into the world for which Prophet Abraham PBUH especially prayed

2129

Is this not something very glorious that Prophet Abraham is praying for that great Prophet PBUH.

The second reason through this great Prophet PBUH ,Islam the greatest boon of God on the human being was completed.

Third reason is Allah Himself declared

813
008.013
YUSUFALI This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.
PICKTHAL That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment.
SHAKIR This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Messenger; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Messenger-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

It is this Prophet PBUH about Allah is declaring a decree by "swearing"

465
(465) But no, by your Lord, they cannot become true be-lievers until they seek your arbitration in all matters on which they disagree among themselves, and then find not the least vexation in their hearts over what you have decided, and accept it in willing submission

Thank you, rligion not a federal secular state or a monarchy or a theocracy.

4.59. O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day That is best, and most suitable for final determination

Obeying authority is what everybody should do. Whether in a job, a country or a community. So why should people not obey the prophet when he is in charge of their community. However where is this and where is secular federalism?

We sent Noah to his people "You shall warn your people before a painful retribution afflicts them."

He said, "O my people, I am a manifest warner to you.

"To alert you that you shall worship GOD, reverence Him, and obey me

26.107. "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust

26.108. "So fear Allah, and obey me.

26.109. "No reward do I ask of you for it my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds

You take specifics from Muhammad's life and make sweeping theories.

unknownuser

Thank you, rligion not a federal secular state or a monarchy or a theocracy.

4.59. O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day That is best, and most suitable for final determination

Absolutely True
Allah and His Messenger are final AUTHORITY

unknownuser

Absolutely True
Allah and His Messenger are final AUTHORITY

God alone is final authority.

Bigmo

Absolutely True
Allah and His Messenger are final AUTHORITY

I don't see the point? So lets say me and someone got on a car accident and had a dispute about who is at fault. What do we do? Refer it to Allah and His messenger? If we had a contract that we had a dispute in, what do we do? Refer it to Allah and His messenger? You sound like the Islamist. And how do we today refer things to the messenger? How do we communicate with him? How do we know what his reply?