What Edip Is Trying To Tell Us?
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Peace all, Edip,
Edip, that's exactly what caught my attention, especially the secular part.
This ''freedom'' is my understanding of what islam is. Muhammad was not applying a secular principle, simply what islam should be. This stems from an understanding of the revelation, not from some some sole human reflection.
Edip, the little I know of you I recognize you here. You are absolutely ignorant as to whare I am and once again you have exposed your ignorance for all to see with this statement.
A federal secular democratic system? Any such system exist today? A reference? Are you being payed to say this or simply being ''politically correct'' ?
adjwi
Terms don't mean anything. I think he ist alking about Muhammad's Medina treaty. However that was built under a tribal system since that s how the society was structured. It was not built under citizenship since there was nothing called citizenship back then. Secular from a Koranic point of view is seperating whats for humans from whats for God. Salat, Zakat and faith is for God. You will get rewarded in the afterlife. The Koran came to remind people of these duties and to warn about judgement day. My difference with Edip is that he only looks at the Muhammad's biography and legacy and ignores the rest of the prophets. While Muhammad led and ruled a community, many other prophet never did. But all preached and all warned and all said the same thing. Since the Koran was sent to Muhammad its fairly normal for it to guide Muhammad into establishing a community. But to say that this was the intended message of the Koran and this was the prophet's job responsibility is absolutely wrong. This was a historic accident and temporary need. Many ayother prophets were sent without the need to establish a community yet that did not sway them one bit from fulfilling their duties. We must look at the prophets as a whole and not just Muhammad's legacy.
The koran tells us what was Muhammad sent for and what his job was.
2256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing.
1682 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message .
6107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them.
479-80 Say'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper.
1753-54 And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner. Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you with power to determine their Faith.
24.54. Say "Obey God, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).
8821 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe.
3941 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper.
426 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach ....
6412 Obey God then and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away (no blame shall attach to our Messenger), for the duty of Our Messenger is just to deliver the message.
6725 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner
09.1-6 Say O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine.
Muhamad was a warner, a preacher and a deliverer of a message. As where all the prophets. Federal secularism? hmm
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Muhamad was a warner, a preacher and a deliverer of a message. As where all the prophets. Federal secularism? hmm
Dear Bigmo
You are taking Muhammad PBUH as a warner only .While Edip is quoting him for establishing a secular Islamic state .It means Edip thinks that Sunna is an authority and it should be quoted for explanantion of quranic system .Good change on the part of Edip. -
Dear Bigmo
You are taking Muhammad PBUH as a warner only .While Edip is quoting him for establishing a secular Islamic state .It means Edip thinks that Sunna is an authority and it should be quoted for explanantion of quranic system .Good change on the part of Edip.I am taking? Or the Koran is stating?
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I am taking? Or the Koran is stating?
He had many rolls to perform
-Reading the book to the people
-Teaching the book to the people
-teaching the Hikmah
-purifying the souls
-making decisions among the people
Al-Quran clearly states3321
(3321) There was indeed the best model for you in the Messenger of Allah, *34 for every such person who looks forward to Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah much. -
He had many rolls to perform
-Reading the book to the people
-Teaching the book to the people
-teaching the Hikmah
-purifying the souls
-making decisions among the people
Al-Quran clearly states3321
(3321) There was indeed the best model for you in the Messenger of Allah, *34 for every such person who looks forward to Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah much.4328 This example (of Abraham) was rendered an everlasting lesson for subsequent generations; perhaps they redeem their souls.
16.120. Abraham was indeed a model, devoutly obedient to God, (and) true in Faith, and he joined not gods with God.
So Abraham was also a secular federalist?
When the koran say
6.123. So We have taught thee the inspired (Message), "Follow the ways of Abraham the True in Faith, and he joined not gods with God."
How do we follow his way, by applying a secular federalist state? Can we also follow Jesus's way? And what kind of state was Jesus's way? A secular federalist one?
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4328 This example (of Abraham) was rendered an everlasting lesson for subsequent generations; perhaps they redeem their souls.
16.120. Abraham was indeed a model, devoutly obedient to God, (and) true in Faith, and he joined not gods with God.
So Abraham was also a secular federalist?
When the koran say
6.123. So We have taught thee the inspired (Message), "Follow the ways of Abraham the True in Faith, and he joined not gods with God."
How do we follow his way, by applying a secular federalist state? Can we also follow Jesus's way? And what kind of state was Jesus's way? A secular federalist one?
Common sense
Follow the latest edition of all these examples as you follow latest research or latest edition of any book.
Regards -
The latest research was 1,400 years ago! hypno
Yes my dear brother
1400 yrs ago a personality came into the world for which Prophet Abraham PBUH especially prayed2129
Is this not something very glorious that Prophet Abraham is praying for that great Prophet PBUH.
The second reason through this great Prophet PBUH ,Islam the greatest boon of God on the human being was completed.
Third reason is Allah Himself declared
813
008.013
YUSUFALI This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.
PICKTHAL That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment.
SHAKIR This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Messenger; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Messenger-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).It is this Prophet PBUH about Allah is declaring a decree by "swearing"
465
(465) But no, by your Lord, they cannot become true be-lievers until they seek your arbitration in all matters on which they disagree among themselves, and then find not the least vexation in their hearts over what you have decided, and accept it in willing submission -
Yes my dear brother
1400 yrs ago a personality came into the world for which Prophet Abraham PBUH especially prayed2129
Is this not something very glorious that Prophet Abraham is praying for that great Prophet PBUH.
The second reason through this great Prophet PBUH ,Islam the greatest boon of God on the human being was completed.
Third reason is Allah Himself declared
813
008.013
YUSUFALI This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment.
PICKTHAL That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment.
SHAKIR This is because they acted adversely to Allah and His Messenger; and whoever acts adversely to Allah and His Messenger-- then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).It is this Prophet PBUH about Allah is declaring a decree by "swearing"
465
(465) But no, by your Lord, they cannot become true be-lievers until they seek your arbitration in all matters on which they disagree among themselves, and then find not the least vexation in their hearts over what you have decided, and accept it in willing submissionThank you, rligion not a federal secular state or a monarchy or a theocracy.
4.59. O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day That is best, and most suitable for final determination
Obeying authority is what everybody should do. Whether in a job, a country or a community. So why should people not obey the prophet when he is in charge of their community. However where is this and where is secular federalism?
We sent Noah to his people "You shall warn your people before a painful retribution afflicts them."
He said, "O my people, I am a manifest warner to you.
"To alert you that you shall worship GOD, reverence Him, and obey me
26.107. "I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust
26.108. "So fear Allah, and obey me.
26.109. "No reward do I ask of you for it my reward is only from the Lord of the Worlds
You take specifics from Muhammad's life and make sweeping theories.
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Thank you, rligion not a federal secular state or a monarchy or a theocracy.
4.59. O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day That is best, and most suitable for final determination
Absolutely True
Allah and His Messenger are final AUTHORITY -
Absolutely True
Allah and His Messenger are final AUTHORITYGod alone is final authority.
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Absolutely True
Allah and His Messenger are final AUTHORITYI don't see the point? So lets say me and someone got on a car accident and had a dispute about who is at fault. What do we do? Refer it to Allah and His messenger? If we had a contract that we had a dispute in, what do we do? Refer it to Allah and His messenger? You sound like the Islamist. And how do we today refer things to the messenger? How do we communicate with him? How do we know what his reply?
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I don't see the point? So lets say me and someone got on a car accident and had a dispute about who is at fault. What do we do? Refer it to Allah and His messenger? If we had a contract that we had a dispute in, what do we do? Refer it to Allah and His messenger? You sound like the Islamist. And how do we today refer things to the messenger? How do we communicate with him? How do we know what his reply?
Through the authentic hadeeth, PBUH.
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Through the authentic hadeeth, PBUH.
So what do we do if Allah is saying one thing and the messenger is saying something else? Who do we follow? Or what do we do if the messenger said something that Allah never said? How do we follow both Allah and his messener then? So there must be consistency and agreement in what both say for us to follow them both. Since we can't follow one and not the other. Now I ask you is the "authentic" hadith telling us what the Koran is telling us? If so then Sunnis who follow those authentic hadith should be following the same Islam like the Koranist do. Yet we know their understanding of Islam is very different. In fact Sunnis do not even regognize the Koranist even though thekoranist are following what Allah is saying. Why is Islam in the koran so different from the Islam we find in hadiths?
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I don't see the point? So lets say me and someone got on a car accident and had a dispute about who is at fault. What do we do? Refer it to Allah and His messenger? If we had a contract that we had a dispute in, what do we do? Refer it to Allah and His messenger? You sound like the Islamist. And how do we today refer things to the messenger? How do we communicate with him? How do we know what his reply?
You may wish to contact the messenger by spiritism (a technique for contacting spirits through a glass), or something like that.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpCvjWzFlyQ -
So what do we do if Allah is saying one thing and the messenger is saying something else? Who do we follow? Or what do we do if the messenger said something that Allah never said? How do we follow both Allah and his messener then? So there must be consistency and agreement in what both say for us to follow them both. Since we can't follow one and not the other. Now I ask you is the "authentic" hadith telling us what the Koran is telling us? If so then Sunnis who follow those authentic hadith should be following the same Islam like the Koranist do. Yet we know their understanding of Islam is very different. In fact Sunnis do not even regognize the Koranist even though thekoranist are following what Allah is saying. Why is Islam in the koran so different from the Islam we find in hadiths?
Dear brother, you know nothing. Please read up on usool, fiqh, isnad, etc and after 20 years of study you may be able to hold an opinion. In the mean time let the blessed ulema (AS) dish these things out! Nobody gave you the authority to speak.
You mish wish to contact the messenger using spiritualism, or something like that.
You can contact him by seeing him in your dreams. Honourable people only. Sometimes the shaitan comes but he can never come as the Holy Prophet (PBUH).
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;D
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465
(465) But no, by your Lord, they cannot become true be-lievers until they seek your
arbitration in all matters on which they disagree among themselves, and then find not the least vexation in their hearts over what you have decided, and accept it in willing submissionWHO ARE IGNORANTS ? QURAN DECLARATION
267
(267) Then call to mind the other event when Moses said to his people, "Allah commands you to sacrifice a cow," they replied, "Do you mean to have a jest with us?" He answered, "I crave Allah's protection from behaving like ignorant people -
Dear brother, you know nothing. Please read up on usool, fiqh, isnad, etc and after 20 years of study you may be able to hold an opinion. In the mean time let the blessed ulema (AS) dish these things out! Nobody gave you the authority to speak.
You can contact him by seeing him in your dreams. Honourable people only. Sometimes the shaitan comes but he can never come as the Holy Prophet (PBUH).
;D
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The response to my statement regarding "federal secularism" demonstrated my silly expectation, that people would reflect on them; yet many responded with a knee-jerk reaction.
If God says "let them reject" or "you cannot force them to acknowledge", that is GOD'S LAW. In other words, providing an environment of "freedom to disbelief" or "freedom to be a kafir" is ISLAM. Let me give one more example. The Quran lists the shares of inheritance and instructs us to apply it AFTER the testator leaves a will. In other words, "the freedom not to follow the Quranic default rules of inheritance" is the Quranic law. Sunnies fabricated many hadith because of not using their critical thinking and they ignored the crucial word AFTER, over and over... Let me make it even clearer "Not imposing the rules of the Quran for muslims on non-muslims is the Quranic or Islamic law!" Please think and reflect on it before jumping on your keyboard.
Unfortunately, the minds of Muslims are so polluted by the teachings of Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties, when they think of Islam they dream of becoming "moral police" or dictators.
I have written articles on this in Turkish, but as it seems, I need to write another one in English, discussing the role of Muhammad as
- A messenger of God, who delivered the Quran as a human mailman.
- A submitter to God, who followed the Quran as a righteous man.
- A federal-secular leader, who led a city-state populated with a religiously and ethnically diverse group of people, according to the secular constitution.
- A muslim leader, who led the group of muslims in that city-state, according to the specific laws of the Quran.
Peace,
EdipPece,
Edip