perhaps i am not a Muslim...
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How about another avenue of approach
why would verses be included that would later be so interpreted to call for violence, if God knows best human nature and our tendency to be rigid and spiteful?
We have revealed unto you a Book that is all about you. Will you not, then, use your sense? (The Qur'an 2110)
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Peace,
why would God include these events in His book, if this book is supposed to be an eternal, trans-historical message of peace and unity? why would verses be included that would later be so interpreted to call for violence, if God knows best human nature and our tendency to be rigid and spiteful?
It is a test. If somebody is looking for violence and ignores the context of the verses, is that a person peaceful? Would you want to converse, be friends and hang out with these kinds of people? See 2253
Realize that quran points to both evil and good paths. See 28-10, surah 90
You don't have to apologize for sick hadeeth. They should be apologizing to you about extremist christians and the bible's sick verses. Last I checked there are over a million Iraqi dead; 2 million more forced to leave the country. The catholic hitler exterminated the jews, Israel is trying to wipe palestine off the face of the earth. The extermination of serbian muslims by christians in the 90s Remember the crusades? Any christian apologized to muslims for that? All 13 of them... Columbus preached the catholic religion and stole the land and the gold from the Native Americans and helped kill anywhere from 3 to 15 million etc....Until a few years ago I never even heard the word 'terrorist'.
Don't fall for propaganda and fear mongering. There is good and evil in every religion, race, culture, geographic region.
i mean... Muhammed apparently lead armies, had his enemies killed, such things. should we embrace this, should we have to continuously apologize for this or explain it away?
Key word, apparently. Shall we believe everything we see or read? 1736, 496
Bottom-line is this Bukhari was a plain-cut liar. He claimed over what 600,000 hadeeth? That would mean if he didn't sleep or eat, he would be writing down a hadeeth every 30 minutes.They didn't have cars back then.
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Peace,
also a snapshot of Muhammad according to al quran
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15889.msg154942#msg154942
Bro Wakas compiled this excellent list via the tools at www.studyquran.org
I would like to point out it is not my work, I simply compiled the list of available tools for StudyQuran.org, hence am familiar with them.
It still amazes me people are not aware of the quality of study that can be done and resources that are available to them. I see this on an almost daily basis on the forum.
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In 95 no one knows what the 4 months are; and why is it prescribed for. And when the months end do away with the perpetrators of violence from every place you can search for them. Where is violence here but the most assured way for peaceful cohabitation?
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still trying to reconcile.
i went to a masjid in Boston today- and felt very blessed. the sisters there were kind and we talked a while about the names of God (one sister gave a lecture), and where we were all from. it is great to worship with others. true, they were not Quran-alone. but they were faithful, kind, funny women who were mindful of God, and eager to learn. i was glad to be with them.
may God show us the right way, and guide us in mercy, and remembrance of Him.
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Don't worry Ayani,
I struggle with doubts and verses all the time. If something in the Quran doesn't make sense to me or seems suspicious, I just let it go, and It usually makes sense later. Remembering all the other aspects which out-weigh the doubtful things is helpful too, and surely so is asking God. If all else fails; maybe just leave the scriptures alone for a while, and remember all the things outside of books which are evidences and expressions of God. All the amazing creatures, natural systems, and experiences, which surely didn't create themself. Then that way you will hold to the belief, and I don't see why God wouldn't guide you if you ask and are trying to be honest. He surely knows what troubles you, so remember to relax and trust that he will in time show you a better understanding of his reality, and so you will by his leave feel much better, and tread on a footing of confidence. -
Don't worry Ayani,
I struggle with doubts and verses all the time. If something in the Quran doesn't make sense to me or seems suspicious, I just let it go, and It usually makes sense later. Remembering all the other aspects which out-weigh the doubtful things is helpful too, and surely so is asking God. If all else fails; maybe just leave the scriptures alone for a while, and remember all the things outside of books which are evidences and expressions of God. All the amazing creatures, natural systems, and experiences, which surely didn't create themself. Then that way you will hold to the belief, and I don't see why God wouldn't guide you if you ask and are trying to be honest. He surely knows what troubles you, so remember to relax and trust that he will in time show you a better understanding of his reality, and so you will by his leave feel much better, and tread on a footing of confidence.Evre, thank you. may God reward you, and guide you in the best way. you are awesome, and so is your tafsir. thank you, sister. mightily. yay group
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But my thoughts had lead me to that fact that Prophet Muhammad is the author to Al-Quran.
And now you claim that the quran is contradictory. God created the Quran and it says that he did create it in the Quran. why would I accept that conjecture that offers heaps of contradictoins. The Quran is amazing in that it is completely perfect, even down to the scientific expressions. 1788 = "Say "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support."
Fighting can be good. Shades of grey. Weaponry can be used to hurt the innocent or protect them. The lesser Jihad should also be of importance to us. The Quran never ever condones invasions or attacking the innocent. But our creator clearly tells us that defending ones self is a rightous cause. We all hate war. but if some one comes and tries to kick my ass... im not going to stand there.
P.S. Let us not forget that through out the quran it is constantly promoting mercy and peace. Even every surah begins with glorifying gods mercy. It condones befriending the disbelievers as long as they dont attack. It even uses the expression "birr" Which is normally used as love between kinship. It clearly states to be fair and loving. To be merciful. To never transgress limits. Lets not go up in arms as soon as we see something involving conflict. After all danger lies all around us.
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Peace,
We are the ones who should use all our senses to live up to be peaceful in our approach to the world around us.
I think AlQuran preaches peace throughout the scripture.
We have to see the whole picture because that is the most important, people who dwell in details will soon lose the big picture.Peace
Maria -
Salam ayani. Allah is almighty wise. Allah has at least many names attributed to him in the Quran. Allah is all powerful because Allah has all wisdom. Allah has love and anger, both, to their maximum limits, and perfectly in balance. It is just and right and an expression of the divine love of Allah, that he warns and threatens us not to violate the limits, because justice, truth, and light, result in the destruction of those disobedient to Allah.
The path of Allah, should contain an expectation, that in Allah's light there will be great anger against the unjust, great anger against those who destroy life. Anger is not an evil, unbalanced wrongful anger is evil. Anger that is used to justify a disobedience to Allah's hudood is evil. Anger against those that will try and drive others from the path of Allah is good.
To maintain an unreasonable expectation that an obsession with love is the path of Allah, is erroneous. A believer must be very careful not to allow foreign influences to tamper with their belief. Allah has not appointed love as the way, there is no such verse in any of his books. Believers follow the way of Allah, not the way of love.
You must remind yourself constantly that your beliefs and practices come from the Quran, and not from contemporary literature or philosophies. This is indeed very hard to do.
Allah is the way and the light.
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Well well!
Having peeked at the various islamic fora, I had more or less given up hope to ever find a sign of
not-programmed and not-in-the-box thinking in those circles.This topic proofs me wrong. But then again, it confirms what I always said it is women who will lead the way!
Apart from the fact that I would never refer to myself as an 'advanced truth seeker' I'd say keep it up ladies!Its you who are the salvation of suffering mankind.
Where the quran says you are valued only half a man and islamic countries such as Iran even made it law, it is science that proofs your brains have the same relative volume (about 15% less, like the body itself) ,that volume is not relevant, AND that you make far better use of it, especially the parts that are associated with spirituality.
You are superior, NOT inferior, to men! ( in this respect, not over all). So much for quran and science.Regarding the question about violence in the quran, consider it the ultimate test of god!!
It is a lesson that teaches us that we should never blindly follow external guidance because such guidance is by definition colored and defined by culture and language. (Therefore never pure in its understanding)
The LIVING word of god on the other hand does not have that problem. It is received by all who do not deny it and manifests in our gut feeling, intuition, inner knowing.
Believe me, you KNOW, have that faith.
Shake off this male oppression! Every time one of them tries to stop you with his logic, intellectual arguments, rules and laws, KNOW that these are not the instruments that lead to god, but away from him.
God and his kingdom are an inner reality. Your gut feeling, intu?tion, inner knowing are his infallible gifts that lead you to him.Holy books are an outer reality, a sign post in the outer illusion/desert for the lost sheep, that must contain 2 things to be effective
-the violent language of the lost sheep (mainly males...) in order to be accepted and followed,
-some Truth that will in time slowly be absorbed and offer the way out of the desert/illusion.
Note that the arab/islamic culture is a desert culture. That is not a coincidence.So you see, those who claim to follow the quran are really confused. Which part do they follow?
The bait of the aggressive texts or the imbedded denunciation of aggression?In short, there is divine wisdom in the PRESENCE of aggresive texts in the quran it is a bait.
But there is great stupidity in the continued glorification of their CONTENT, because that would perpetuate the barbarism of the stone age instead of being salvaged from it trough the imbedded message of (inner) peace and unbounded love.I hope this answers the question regarding violence in the quran.
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Peace to all,
Anders, it seems you went a little too far and committed the exact vice you balme men for, excesses, so now woman are superior to men? I thought God teaches of equity and justice and fairness, God doesnt blame men for all evils so why do you, and why are all the prophets men, did God do this just to test us. Believe me, I love and respect all woman as equal and perfect creations of a just God, but we are different, and we each have our respective strengths and weaknesses, it is only by working together in unison that we can fill our respective gaps and correct our shortcomings, when we learn to operate as one unit both fulfilling our God giving gifts and talents will peace come to earth, until then,, advocating for all of one or the other, or blaming one or the other will get us nowhere, God is one, humanity is one, earth is one, our souls are all one in God.
Kurt
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A typical male reaction!
I did no go too far, I am stating facts
I did not say women are superior, I said they are superior in certain areas that happen to be of crucial importance to get us out of the mess that the Pisces era of male dominance has caused.
It is simply a matter of divine balancing, no need to discuss. Just open your eyes to see.Your reaction seems to be an attempt to divert attention from what was implied the FACT that quran incorrectly states that women have only half the brains and are only of half value, that they MUST comply with the males urges even if they are not in the mood. That is NOT equality but male distortion of it.
Evil is gods allowance and mans qualification, yes, he does not blame.
Not all prophets /were are men. There is a beam in your eye. But in the now ended Pisces male dominated era the male prophets were taken seriously, the female ones were considered mad and killed or forced into silence.
Or not chosen because they would not be heard in the first place.
This present day, females in the know and leading the way by far outnumber the males.
If you love and respect women as equal, then my words were not directed against you. But if you are sincere here, why do you fail to read what I write?
No test, but a lesson
God gifted us a male dominated era of limited time, for us to experience and remember once and for all the disaster and suffering that comes from such unbalance. I do hope we will all learn this lesson and never forget, but the sad fact is that large portions of humanity have not yet understood.
So be it. This is the time we will all judge our selves by what we choose to believe in. Yes, this is Judgment Day, preceding the new era of Aquarius.For the rest I fully agree, with the exception that you mention more than one ?ones?;
there is simply Oneness, nothing excluded. God is (defined as) all there is, the only reality. Including humanity and earth. -
the FACT that quran incorrectly states that women have only half the brains and are only of half value, that they MUST comply with the males urges even if they are not in the mood. That is NOT equality but male distortion of it.
Salaam Anders
Since you are stating what you call a FACT, from the qur'aan, please provide proof in the form of verse/s, or withdraw your statement. -
I read both parts of my statement in the quran long ago and I still remember my astonishment about it.
In discussions with people while travelling in Islamic countries I have more than once heard these views confirmed and therefore consider this common knowledge.
If it were not true, then why is it that Iran even implemented this fact in the national law???
All they do is follow the quran to the letter.But you challenge me to prove it here. That is reasonable but poses a problem because I no longer have the quran with search engine on my computer. The same applies to the notes I used to make.
I do not wish to spend time searching for it nor do I feel the urge to convince anyone.For this practical reason, if it pleases you, you may consider my statement withdrawn and replaced by what I state above. Other readers may follow their own logic.
Am I to understand that you belief that the quran values men and women equally and that therefore you are of the opinion that the vast majority of muslims who do not treat women as equals do so on cultural grounds and falsely claim this practise to be Islamic?
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Peace to all,
Anders said ,
Am I to understand that you belief that the quran values men and women equally and that therefore you are of the opinion that the vast majority of muslims who do not treat women as equals do so on cultural grounds and falsely claim this practise to be Islamic?
I finally found something you said I agree with. Yes, mostly cultural, although im sure there are some who twist the Quran to try to interpret it as justifying unequality between man and woman.
Kurt
