perhaps i am not a Muslim...
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Don't worry Ayani,
I struggle with doubts and verses all the time. If something in the Quran doesn't make sense to me or seems suspicious, I just let it go, and It usually makes sense later. Remembering all the other aspects which out-weigh the doubtful things is helpful too, and surely so is asking God. If all else fails; maybe just leave the scriptures alone for a while, and remember all the things outside of books which are evidences and expressions of God. All the amazing creatures, natural systems, and experiences, which surely didn't create themself. Then that way you will hold to the belief, and I don't see why God wouldn't guide you if you ask and are trying to be honest. He surely knows what troubles you, so remember to relax and trust that he will in time show you a better understanding of his reality, and so you will by his leave feel much better, and tread on a footing of confidence. -
Don't worry Ayani,
I struggle with doubts and verses all the time. If something in the Quran doesn't make sense to me or seems suspicious, I just let it go, and It usually makes sense later. Remembering all the other aspects which out-weigh the doubtful things is helpful too, and surely so is asking God. If all else fails; maybe just leave the scriptures alone for a while, and remember all the things outside of books which are evidences and expressions of God. All the amazing creatures, natural systems, and experiences, which surely didn't create themself. Then that way you will hold to the belief, and I don't see why God wouldn't guide you if you ask and are trying to be honest. He surely knows what troubles you, so remember to relax and trust that he will in time show you a better understanding of his reality, and so you will by his leave feel much better, and tread on a footing of confidence.Evre, thank you. may God reward you, and guide you in the best way. you are awesome, and so is your tafsir. thank you, sister. mightily. yay group
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But my thoughts had lead me to that fact that Prophet Muhammad is the author to Al-Quran.
And now you claim that the quran is contradictory. God created the Quran and it says that he did create it in the Quran. why would I accept that conjecture that offers heaps of contradictoins. The Quran is amazing in that it is completely perfect, even down to the scientific expressions. 1788 = "Say "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support."
Fighting can be good. Shades of grey. Weaponry can be used to hurt the innocent or protect them. The lesser Jihad should also be of importance to us. The Quran never ever condones invasions or attacking the innocent. But our creator clearly tells us that defending ones self is a rightous cause. We all hate war. but if some one comes and tries to kick my ass... im not going to stand there.
P.S. Let us not forget that through out the quran it is constantly promoting mercy and peace. Even every surah begins with glorifying gods mercy. It condones befriending the disbelievers as long as they dont attack. It even uses the expression "birr" Which is normally used as love between kinship. It clearly states to be fair and loving. To be merciful. To never transgress limits. Lets not go up in arms as soon as we see something involving conflict. After all danger lies all around us.
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Peace,
We are the ones who should use all our senses to live up to be peaceful in our approach to the world around us.
I think AlQuran preaches peace throughout the scripture.
We have to see the whole picture because that is the most important, people who dwell in details will soon lose the big picture.Peace
Maria -
Salam ayani. Allah is almighty wise. Allah has at least many names attributed to him in the Quran. Allah is all powerful because Allah has all wisdom. Allah has love and anger, both, to their maximum limits, and perfectly in balance. It is just and right and an expression of the divine love of Allah, that he warns and threatens us not to violate the limits, because justice, truth, and light, result in the destruction of those disobedient to Allah.
The path of Allah, should contain an expectation, that in Allah's light there will be great anger against the unjust, great anger against those who destroy life. Anger is not an evil, unbalanced wrongful anger is evil. Anger that is used to justify a disobedience to Allah's hudood is evil. Anger against those that will try and drive others from the path of Allah is good.
To maintain an unreasonable expectation that an obsession with love is the path of Allah, is erroneous. A believer must be very careful not to allow foreign influences to tamper with their belief. Allah has not appointed love as the way, there is no such verse in any of his books. Believers follow the way of Allah, not the way of love.
You must remind yourself constantly that your beliefs and practices come from the Quran, and not from contemporary literature or philosophies. This is indeed very hard to do.
Allah is the way and the light.
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Well well!
Having peeked at the various islamic fora, I had more or less given up hope to ever find a sign of
not-programmed and not-in-the-box thinking in those circles.This topic proofs me wrong. But then again, it confirms what I always said it is women who will lead the way!
Apart from the fact that I would never refer to myself as an 'advanced truth seeker' I'd say keep it up ladies!Its you who are the salvation of suffering mankind.
Where the quran says you are valued only half a man and islamic countries such as Iran even made it law, it is science that proofs your brains have the same relative volume (about 15% less, like the body itself) ,that volume is not relevant, AND that you make far better use of it, especially the parts that are associated with spirituality.
You are superior, NOT inferior, to men! ( in this respect, not over all). So much for quran and science.Regarding the question about violence in the quran, consider it the ultimate test of god!!
It is a lesson that teaches us that we should never blindly follow external guidance because such guidance is by definition colored and defined by culture and language. (Therefore never pure in its understanding)
The LIVING word of god on the other hand does not have that problem. It is received by all who do not deny it and manifests in our gut feeling, intuition, inner knowing.
Believe me, you KNOW, have that faith.
Shake off this male oppression! Every time one of them tries to stop you with his logic, intellectual arguments, rules and laws, KNOW that these are not the instruments that lead to god, but away from him.
God and his kingdom are an inner reality. Your gut feeling, intu?tion, inner knowing are his infallible gifts that lead you to him.Holy books are an outer reality, a sign post in the outer illusion/desert for the lost sheep, that must contain 2 things to be effective
-the violent language of the lost sheep (mainly males...) in order to be accepted and followed,
-some Truth that will in time slowly be absorbed and offer the way out of the desert/illusion.
Note that the arab/islamic culture is a desert culture. That is not a coincidence.So you see, those who claim to follow the quran are really confused. Which part do they follow?
The bait of the aggressive texts or the imbedded denunciation of aggression?In short, there is divine wisdom in the PRESENCE of aggresive texts in the quran it is a bait.
But there is great stupidity in the continued glorification of their CONTENT, because that would perpetuate the barbarism of the stone age instead of being salvaged from it trough the imbedded message of (inner) peace and unbounded love.I hope this answers the question regarding violence in the quran.
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Peace to all,
Anders, it seems you went a little too far and committed the exact vice you balme men for, excesses, so now woman are superior to men? I thought God teaches of equity and justice and fairness, God doesnt blame men for all evils so why do you, and why are all the prophets men, did God do this just to test us. Believe me, I love and respect all woman as equal and perfect creations of a just God, but we are different, and we each have our respective strengths and weaknesses, it is only by working together in unison that we can fill our respective gaps and correct our shortcomings, when we learn to operate as one unit both fulfilling our God giving gifts and talents will peace come to earth, until then,, advocating for all of one or the other, or blaming one or the other will get us nowhere, God is one, humanity is one, earth is one, our souls are all one in God.
Kurt
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A typical male reaction!
I did no go too far, I am stating facts
I did not say women are superior, I said they are superior in certain areas that happen to be of crucial importance to get us out of the mess that the Pisces era of male dominance has caused.
It is simply a matter of divine balancing, no need to discuss. Just open your eyes to see.Your reaction seems to be an attempt to divert attention from what was implied the FACT that quran incorrectly states that women have only half the brains and are only of half value, that they MUST comply with the males urges even if they are not in the mood. That is NOT equality but male distortion of it.
Evil is gods allowance and mans qualification, yes, he does not blame.
Not all prophets /were are men. There is a beam in your eye. But in the now ended Pisces male dominated era the male prophets were taken seriously, the female ones were considered mad and killed or forced into silence.
Or not chosen because they would not be heard in the first place.
This present day, females in the know and leading the way by far outnumber the males.
If you love and respect women as equal, then my words were not directed against you. But if you are sincere here, why do you fail to read what I write?
No test, but a lesson
God gifted us a male dominated era of limited time, for us to experience and remember once and for all the disaster and suffering that comes from such unbalance. I do hope we will all learn this lesson and never forget, but the sad fact is that large portions of humanity have not yet understood.
So be it. This is the time we will all judge our selves by what we choose to believe in. Yes, this is Judgment Day, preceding the new era of Aquarius.For the rest I fully agree, with the exception that you mention more than one ?ones?;
there is simply Oneness, nothing excluded. God is (defined as) all there is, the only reality. Including humanity and earth. -
the FACT that quran incorrectly states that women have only half the brains and are only of half value, that they MUST comply with the males urges even if they are not in the mood. That is NOT equality but male distortion of it.
Salaam Anders
Since you are stating what you call a FACT, from the qur'aan, please provide proof in the form of verse/s, or withdraw your statement. -
I read both parts of my statement in the quran long ago and I still remember my astonishment about it.
In discussions with people while travelling in Islamic countries I have more than once heard these views confirmed and therefore consider this common knowledge.
If it were not true, then why is it that Iran even implemented this fact in the national law???
All they do is follow the quran to the letter.But you challenge me to prove it here. That is reasonable but poses a problem because I no longer have the quran with search engine on my computer. The same applies to the notes I used to make.
I do not wish to spend time searching for it nor do I feel the urge to convince anyone.For this practical reason, if it pleases you, you may consider my statement withdrawn and replaced by what I state above. Other readers may follow their own logic.
Am I to understand that you belief that the quran values men and women equally and that therefore you are of the opinion that the vast majority of muslims who do not treat women as equals do so on cultural grounds and falsely claim this practise to be Islamic?
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Peace to all,
Anders said ,
Am I to understand that you belief that the quran values men and women equally and that therefore you are of the opinion that the vast majority of muslims who do not treat women as equals do so on cultural grounds and falsely claim this practise to be Islamic?
I finally found something you said I agree with. Yes, mostly cultural, although im sure there are some who twist the Quran to try to interpret it as justifying unequality between man and woman.
Kurt
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For this practical reason, if it pleases you, you may consider my statement withdrawn and replaced by what I state above.
Thanks for withdrawing your statement. Please bear in mind the forum rules when posting in future
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0 -
In discussions with people while travelling in Islamic countries I have more than once heard these views confirmed and therefore consider this common knowledge.
If it were not true, then why is it that Iran even implemented this fact in the national law???
All they do is follow the quran to the letter.
..........
Am I to understand that you belief that the quran values men and women equally and that therefore you are of the opinion that the vast majority of muslims who do not treat women as equals do so on cultural grounds and falsely claim this practise to be Islamic?Salaam Anders
Thank you for your response
All mysogenic laws and ideas come from hadith which is the main source of shari3a law. Trditional Muslims, whether Governments or individual, may say they follow the qur'aan, but they equally follow hadith and know it better than the qur'aan. They even interpret the qur'aan on the light of hadith (so that it does not contradict the hadith, even if they have to twist it by changing the meaning of some words and abrogate some verses by hadith). Hence their laws, regulations and customs are based on hadith. The objective of this forum is to seek the truth thruogh discussions, based on the qur'aan only and verified evidence. -
It seems I have underestimated the growing awareness that additions to the quran, such as hadith and sharia, are not acceptable to the quran itself, since it states that it in itself is complete.
That it needs no 'explanation', but humans who are ready (spiritually matured) to read it.
This growing awareness away from the cultural influence that the very quran seeks to transcend is an encouraging step forward. bravoRegarding the widely practised inequality between men and women, be it rooted in the quran or in its misreading, I offer here an explanation that may end this confusion once and for all.
As said and scientifically proven (and obvious for al who have eyes to see)
Humans are physically divided in male and female (not all sexually reproducing life forms are)
But
They are spiritually androgynous. Both male and female have feminine and masculine qualities. This is even expressed in the two parts of the brain.Knowing this it is easy to see the misunderstanding
The misconception (again, as practised in the belief that it is quranic) is
?a woman is only half a man ? (and for this reason must accept his guidance\rule)The proven and obvious truth, therefore the true teaching, is
?the (spiritual)feminine is half of each (spiritual) Human, as incarnated in either male or female embodiment.Remember, holy books are spiritual books that convey spiritual truths.
They are not medical books that convey biological truths.It is clear that in the old days, and still now, the masses could not do any better than to give spiritual truths, to which they were/are blind, a physical interpretation.
It is of immense importance to understand and correct this misconception because the rebalancing of the human nature is a precondition for his ascension.
Unbalance leads to disaster in creation, as we have witnessed in history.
God does not allow for such disasters/unbalance in heaven.
Heaven?s gate remains closed for the unbalanced!For a very dramatic explanation of this see the 18 minute story of Jill Bolte Taylor, a neurobiologist who lost the male functions of her brain due to a stroke, and subsequently saw and understood, received, all http//www.ted.com/index.php/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html
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salaam
i wish sister samia, and linguists, would be so kind to spend some of their time to explain this word with root letters 'q-t-l', which has been the root of many a confusion.
i am not a linguist, nor grammarian, but i sense the word 'qatala' has various implications when used as a phrase, or in context. i think, it goes beyond 'kill' the way the common people understand it. even the english 'kill' can have very different meanings when used as a phrase. killing time is different from killing people. killing your desires is different from killing your mother in-law. you must 'uqtul' the wine, or 'uqtul' the ego, and so forth. let the linguists give us an insight.
the confusion resulting from a rigid translation of the words stemming from 'q-t-l' has caused al-qur'an which propagates peace among man, to be understood as otherwise. let us not perpetuate such a disgusting idea.
so, if it is not too much to ask, hopefully they would consider this humble request. and let us thank them in advance.
peace
jb -
salaam
i wish sister samia, and linguists, would be so kind to spend some of their time to explain this word with root letters 'q-t-l', which has been the root of many a confusion.
i am not a linguist, nor grammarian, but i sense the word 'qatala' has various implications when used as a phrase, or in context. i think, it goes beyond 'kill' the way the common people understand it. even the english 'kill' can have very different meanings when used as a phrase. killing time is different from killing people. killing your desires is different from killing your mother in-law. you must 'uqtul' the wine, or 'uqtul' the ego, and so forth. let the linguists give us an insight.
the confusion resulting from a rigid translation of the words stemming from 'q-t-l' has caused al-qur'an which propagates peace among man, to be understood as otherwise. let us not perpetuate such a disgusting idea.
so, if it is not too much to ask, hopefully they would consider this humble request. and let us thank them in advance.
peace
jbSalam Joe,
Here is a Semitic history of the word qtl. The definition and usage of the word has been consistant through out the Semitic languages.
Hebrew
From Strong?s Hebrew and Greek Dictionary and Brown Driver Briggs? Hebrew Definitions
Strong?s H6991
qatal
kaw-tal'
A primitive root; properly to cut off, that is, (figuratively) put to death - kill, slay.
BDB Definition- (Qal) to slay, kill
Part of Speech verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number 2008
H6993
qetel
keh'-tel
From H6991; a violent death - slaughter.
BDB Definition- slaughter
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from H6991
BDB Definition
- slaughter
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from H6991
Same Word by TWOT Number 2008a
From The Theological Word Book of the Old Testament
2008 - quatal
Hebrew Word quatal
Strong's Cross Reference 6991
Definition slay (Job_2414; Job_1315; Psa_13919).Derivative TWOT Number 2008a
Derivative Transliteration qetel
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference 6993
Derivative Definition slaughter (Oba_19, only).Aramaic
From Strong?s Hebrew and Greek Dictionary and Brown Driver Briggs? Hebrew Definitions
H6992
qetal
ket-al'
(Chaldee); corresponding to H6991; to kill - slay.BDB Definition
- to slay, kill
1a) (Peal) to be slain
1b) (Pael) to slay
1c) (Ithpeal) to be slain
1d) (Ithpael) to be slain
Part of Speech verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number corresponding to H6991
Same Word by TWOT Number 2969
From The Theological Word Book of the Old Testament
2969 - qe tal
Aramaic Word qe tal
Strong's Cross Reference 6992
Definition slay. This verb, so familiar to Hebrew students as a paradigm verb, is only found three times in Hebrew (Job_1315; Job_2414; Psa_13919). It may be a borrowing into Hebrew from the Aramaic. It is used seven times in Biblical Aramaic, and it occurs in early Aramaic inscriptions (KB).Arabic
From Lane?s Lexicon courtesy of PRL (http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm)
= Qaf-Ta-Lam = to kill, put to death, be accused, slay/murder/kill/slaughter, attempt to kill, render person like to one killed, to wage war/combat/battle, to master, contend/fight, deadly, knew a thing thoroughly/well, become acquainted with it.
Salam,
Arnab - (Qal) to slay, kill
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Why did you never reply to Wakas's point concerning the verses you quotes on warfare (that these were talking about retaliation)?
You posted this under my message but I am unaware of 'Waka's point'.
However, retaliation is not a divine concept so we can easily dismiss this one as satanical.
It causes fear, and fear is the method of control of the dark forces.
God gave us free will, which excludes the notion of fear as a control tool.A better and easier to understand (oriental) concept is that of karma. It simply means action=reaction, what you sow you shall reap, law of balance.
It is a divine teaching tool, not a control tool like the satanic concept of retaliation.
