perhaps i am not a Muslim...
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Well well!
Having peeked at the various islamic fora, I had more or less given up hope to ever find a sign of
not-programmed and not-in-the-box thinking in those circles.This topic proofs me wrong. But then again, it confirms what I always said it is women who will lead the way!
Apart from the fact that I would never refer to myself as an 'advanced truth seeker' I'd say keep it up ladies!Its you who are the salvation of suffering mankind.
Where the quran says you are valued only half a man and islamic countries such as Iran even made it law, it is science that proofs your brains have the same relative volume (about 15% less, like the body itself) ,that volume is not relevant, AND that you make far better use of it, especially the parts that are associated with spirituality.
You are superior, NOT inferior, to men! ( in this respect, not over all). So much for quran and science.Regarding the question about violence in the quran, consider it the ultimate test of god!!
It is a lesson that teaches us that we should never blindly follow external guidance because such guidance is by definition colored and defined by culture and language. (Therefore never pure in its understanding)
The LIVING word of god on the other hand does not have that problem. It is received by all who do not deny it and manifests in our gut feeling, intuition, inner knowing.
Believe me, you KNOW, have that faith.
Shake off this male oppression! Every time one of them tries to stop you with his logic, intellectual arguments, rules and laws, KNOW that these are not the instruments that lead to god, but away from him.
God and his kingdom are an inner reality. Your gut feeling, intu?tion, inner knowing are his infallible gifts that lead you to him.Holy books are an outer reality, a sign post in the outer illusion/desert for the lost sheep, that must contain 2 things to be effective
-the violent language of the lost sheep (mainly males...) in order to be accepted and followed,
-some Truth that will in time slowly be absorbed and offer the way out of the desert/illusion.
Note that the arab/islamic culture is a desert culture. That is not a coincidence.So you see, those who claim to follow the quran are really confused. Which part do they follow?
The bait of the aggressive texts or the imbedded denunciation of aggression?In short, there is divine wisdom in the PRESENCE of aggresive texts in the quran it is a bait.
But there is great stupidity in the continued glorification of their CONTENT, because that would perpetuate the barbarism of the stone age instead of being salvaged from it trough the imbedded message of (inner) peace and unbounded love.I hope this answers the question regarding violence in the quran.
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Peace to all,
Anders, it seems you went a little too far and committed the exact vice you balme men for, excesses, so now woman are superior to men? I thought God teaches of equity and justice and fairness, God doesnt blame men for all evils so why do you, and why are all the prophets men, did God do this just to test us. Believe me, I love and respect all woman as equal and perfect creations of a just God, but we are different, and we each have our respective strengths and weaknesses, it is only by working together in unison that we can fill our respective gaps and correct our shortcomings, when we learn to operate as one unit both fulfilling our God giving gifts and talents will peace come to earth, until then,, advocating for all of one or the other, or blaming one or the other will get us nowhere, God is one, humanity is one, earth is one, our souls are all one in God.
Kurt
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A typical male reaction!
I did no go too far, I am stating facts
I did not say women are superior, I said they are superior in certain areas that happen to be of crucial importance to get us out of the mess that the Pisces era of male dominance has caused.
It is simply a matter of divine balancing, no need to discuss. Just open your eyes to see.Your reaction seems to be an attempt to divert attention from what was implied the FACT that quran incorrectly states that women have only half the brains and are only of half value, that they MUST comply with the males urges even if they are not in the mood. That is NOT equality but male distortion of it.
Evil is gods allowance and mans qualification, yes, he does not blame.
Not all prophets /were are men. There is a beam in your eye. But in the now ended Pisces male dominated era the male prophets were taken seriously, the female ones were considered mad and killed or forced into silence.
Or not chosen because they would not be heard in the first place.
This present day, females in the know and leading the way by far outnumber the males.
If you love and respect women as equal, then my words were not directed against you. But if you are sincere here, why do you fail to read what I write?
No test, but a lesson
God gifted us a male dominated era of limited time, for us to experience and remember once and for all the disaster and suffering that comes from such unbalance. I do hope we will all learn this lesson and never forget, but the sad fact is that large portions of humanity have not yet understood.
So be it. This is the time we will all judge our selves by what we choose to believe in. Yes, this is Judgment Day, preceding the new era of Aquarius.For the rest I fully agree, with the exception that you mention more than one ?ones?;
there is simply Oneness, nothing excluded. God is (defined as) all there is, the only reality. Including humanity and earth. -
the FACT that quran incorrectly states that women have only half the brains and are only of half value, that they MUST comply with the males urges even if they are not in the mood. That is NOT equality but male distortion of it.
Salaam Anders
Since you are stating what you call a FACT, from the qur'aan, please provide proof in the form of verse/s, or withdraw your statement. -
I read both parts of my statement in the quran long ago and I still remember my astonishment about it.
In discussions with people while travelling in Islamic countries I have more than once heard these views confirmed and therefore consider this common knowledge.
If it were not true, then why is it that Iran even implemented this fact in the national law???
All they do is follow the quran to the letter.But you challenge me to prove it here. That is reasonable but poses a problem because I no longer have the quran with search engine on my computer. The same applies to the notes I used to make.
I do not wish to spend time searching for it nor do I feel the urge to convince anyone.For this practical reason, if it pleases you, you may consider my statement withdrawn and replaced by what I state above. Other readers may follow their own logic.
Am I to understand that you belief that the quran values men and women equally and that therefore you are of the opinion that the vast majority of muslims who do not treat women as equals do so on cultural grounds and falsely claim this practise to be Islamic?
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Peace to all,
Anders said ,
Am I to understand that you belief that the quran values men and women equally and that therefore you are of the opinion that the vast majority of muslims who do not treat women as equals do so on cultural grounds and falsely claim this practise to be Islamic?
I finally found something you said I agree with. Yes, mostly cultural, although im sure there are some who twist the Quran to try to interpret it as justifying unequality between man and woman.
Kurt
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For this practical reason, if it pleases you, you may consider my statement withdrawn and replaced by what I state above.
Thanks for withdrawing your statement. Please bear in mind the forum rules when posting in future
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0 -
In discussions with people while travelling in Islamic countries I have more than once heard these views confirmed and therefore consider this common knowledge.
If it were not true, then why is it that Iran even implemented this fact in the national law???
All they do is follow the quran to the letter.
..........
Am I to understand that you belief that the quran values men and women equally and that therefore you are of the opinion that the vast majority of muslims who do not treat women as equals do so on cultural grounds and falsely claim this practise to be Islamic?Salaam Anders
Thank you for your response
All mysogenic laws and ideas come from hadith which is the main source of shari3a law. Trditional Muslims, whether Governments or individual, may say they follow the qur'aan, but they equally follow hadith and know it better than the qur'aan. They even interpret the qur'aan on the light of hadith (so that it does not contradict the hadith, even if they have to twist it by changing the meaning of some words and abrogate some verses by hadith). Hence their laws, regulations and customs are based on hadith. The objective of this forum is to seek the truth thruogh discussions, based on the qur'aan only and verified evidence. -
It seems I have underestimated the growing awareness that additions to the quran, such as hadith and sharia, are not acceptable to the quran itself, since it states that it in itself is complete.
That it needs no 'explanation', but humans who are ready (spiritually matured) to read it.
This growing awareness away from the cultural influence that the very quran seeks to transcend is an encouraging step forward. bravoRegarding the widely practised inequality between men and women, be it rooted in the quran or in its misreading, I offer here an explanation that may end this confusion once and for all.
As said and scientifically proven (and obvious for al who have eyes to see)
Humans are physically divided in male and female (not all sexually reproducing life forms are)
But
They are spiritually androgynous. Both male and female have feminine and masculine qualities. This is even expressed in the two parts of the brain.Knowing this it is easy to see the misunderstanding
The misconception (again, as practised in the belief that it is quranic) is
?a woman is only half a man ? (and for this reason must accept his guidance\rule)The proven and obvious truth, therefore the true teaching, is
?the (spiritual)feminine is half of each (spiritual) Human, as incarnated in either male or female embodiment.Remember, holy books are spiritual books that convey spiritual truths.
They are not medical books that convey biological truths.It is clear that in the old days, and still now, the masses could not do any better than to give spiritual truths, to which they were/are blind, a physical interpretation.
It is of immense importance to understand and correct this misconception because the rebalancing of the human nature is a precondition for his ascension.
Unbalance leads to disaster in creation, as we have witnessed in history.
God does not allow for such disasters/unbalance in heaven.
Heaven?s gate remains closed for the unbalanced!For a very dramatic explanation of this see the 18 minute story of Jill Bolte Taylor, a neurobiologist who lost the male functions of her brain due to a stroke, and subsequently saw and understood, received, all http//www.ted.com/index.php/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html
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salaam
i wish sister samia, and linguists, would be so kind to spend some of their time to explain this word with root letters 'q-t-l', which has been the root of many a confusion.
i am not a linguist, nor grammarian, but i sense the word 'qatala' has various implications when used as a phrase, or in context. i think, it goes beyond 'kill' the way the common people understand it. even the english 'kill' can have very different meanings when used as a phrase. killing time is different from killing people. killing your desires is different from killing your mother in-law. you must 'uqtul' the wine, or 'uqtul' the ego, and so forth. let the linguists give us an insight.
the confusion resulting from a rigid translation of the words stemming from 'q-t-l' has caused al-qur'an which propagates peace among man, to be understood as otherwise. let us not perpetuate such a disgusting idea.
so, if it is not too much to ask, hopefully they would consider this humble request. and let us thank them in advance.
peace
jb -
salaam
i wish sister samia, and linguists, would be so kind to spend some of their time to explain this word with root letters 'q-t-l', which has been the root of many a confusion.
i am not a linguist, nor grammarian, but i sense the word 'qatala' has various implications when used as a phrase, or in context. i think, it goes beyond 'kill' the way the common people understand it. even the english 'kill' can have very different meanings when used as a phrase. killing time is different from killing people. killing your desires is different from killing your mother in-law. you must 'uqtul' the wine, or 'uqtul' the ego, and so forth. let the linguists give us an insight.
the confusion resulting from a rigid translation of the words stemming from 'q-t-l' has caused al-qur'an which propagates peace among man, to be understood as otherwise. let us not perpetuate such a disgusting idea.
so, if it is not too much to ask, hopefully they would consider this humble request. and let us thank them in advance.
peace
jbSalam Joe,
Here is a Semitic history of the word qtl. The definition and usage of the word has been consistant through out the Semitic languages.
Hebrew
From Strong?s Hebrew and Greek Dictionary and Brown Driver Briggs? Hebrew Definitions
Strong?s H6991
qatal
kaw-tal'
A primitive root; properly to cut off, that is, (figuratively) put to death - kill, slay.
BDB Definition- (Qal) to slay, kill
Part of Speech verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number 2008
H6993
qetel
keh'-tel
From H6991; a violent death - slaughter.
BDB Definition- slaughter
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from H6991
BDB Definition
- slaughter
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from H6991
Same Word by TWOT Number 2008a
From The Theological Word Book of the Old Testament
2008 - quatal
Hebrew Word quatal
Strong's Cross Reference 6991
Definition slay (Job_2414; Job_1315; Psa_13919).Derivative TWOT Number 2008a
Derivative Transliteration qetel
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference 6993
Derivative Definition slaughter (Oba_19, only).Aramaic
From Strong?s Hebrew and Greek Dictionary and Brown Driver Briggs? Hebrew Definitions
H6992
qetal
ket-al'
(Chaldee); corresponding to H6991; to kill - slay.BDB Definition
- to slay, kill
1a) (Peal) to be slain
1b) (Pael) to slay
1c) (Ithpeal) to be slain
1d) (Ithpael) to be slain
Part of Speech verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number corresponding to H6991
Same Word by TWOT Number 2969
From The Theological Word Book of the Old Testament
2969 - qe tal
Aramaic Word qe tal
Strong's Cross Reference 6992
Definition slay. This verb, so familiar to Hebrew students as a paradigm verb, is only found three times in Hebrew (Job_1315; Job_2414; Psa_13919). It may be a borrowing into Hebrew from the Aramaic. It is used seven times in Biblical Aramaic, and it occurs in early Aramaic inscriptions (KB).Arabic
From Lane?s Lexicon courtesy of PRL (http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm)
= Qaf-Ta-Lam = to kill, put to death, be accused, slay/murder/kill/slaughter, attempt to kill, render person like to one killed, to wage war/combat/battle, to master, contend/fight, deadly, knew a thing thoroughly/well, become acquainted with it.
Salam,
Arnab - (Qal) to slay, kill
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Why did you never reply to Wakas's point concerning the verses you quotes on warfare (that these were talking about retaliation)?
You posted this under my message but I am unaware of 'Waka's point'.
However, retaliation is not a divine concept so we can easily dismiss this one as satanical.
It causes fear, and fear is the method of control of the dark forces.
God gave us free will, which excludes the notion of fear as a control tool.A better and easier to understand (oriental) concept is that of karma. It simply means action=reaction, what you sow you shall reap, law of balance.
It is a divine teaching tool, not a control tool like the satanic concept of retaliation. -
Anders said ,
Am I to understand that you belief that the quran values men and women equally and that therefore you are of the opinion that the vast majority of muslims who do not treat women as equals do so on cultural grounds and falsely claim this practise to be Islamic?I finally found something you said I agree with. Yes, mostly cultural, although im sure there are some who twist the Quran to try to interpret it as justifying unequality between man and woman.
Kurt
Hi Kurt,
Boy, am I lucky that Truth is not defined by your agreement. yayButb seriously
your name and opinion suggest you are a convert. Then perhaps you are in a better position than born muslims to come up with the answer that is never given (to my knowledge) but consistently avoided whenever the question of violence in the quran arises.So please tell me (and the rest of the world) how I can read a peaceful meaning in the following verses from chapter 9
95
929
839
474Perhaps you can also comment on the following that I found while researching
- Chapter 9 is the last revealed, therefore overrules the conflicting more peaceful verses, as per instructions from the quran itself.
- In last 10 years of Muhammad's 's life he waged 29 offensive wars. Totaling 77 in total, only 1 defensive.
- In 100 years time, land from india to spain was conquered by the sword.
(I visited the ruins of a beautiful peaceful culture in South India that had no army and was totally annihilated by muslim hordes) - there are 149 violent verses in total.
I can not escape from thinking that a peaceful interpretation of quran is actually a peaceful interpretation of PART of the quran, ignoring the rest including the above.
Please refrain from referring to violent texts in other religious traditions, that would be evading the serious answer the world is waiting for.
Never mind that such texts (christian, hindu etc) are never seen as instructions to follow but as mythology or history telling. -
Peace Anders,
So please tell me (and the rest of the world) how I can read a peaceful meaning in the following verses from chapter 9
95
929For a start read the whole chapter...
98 How is it that when they come upon you they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts deny, and most of them are wicked.
912 And if they break their oaths after making them, and they denounce the authority of your system; then you may kill the chiefs of rejection. Their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then cease.
913 Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and intended to expel the messenger, especially while they were the ones who attacked you first? Do you fear them? It is God who is more worthy to be feared if you are believers.
This is all in retaliation. And you would know this if you read the Quran.
839
861 And if they seek peace, then you also seek it, and put your trust in God. He is the Hearer, the Knowledgeable.
Again you didn't read the chapter as a whole. The verses only apply to those who are not seeking peace.
474
471 Those who rejected and repelled from the path of God, He will mislead their works.
4713 And many a town was stronger than your own town, which drove you out. We destroyed them, and there was none who could help them.- Chapter 9 is the last revealed, therefore overrules the conflicting more peaceful verses, as per instructions from the quran itself.
First of all even in chapter 9 the context can be seen as self defence. There is no Quranic basis for this "overruling" as you put it. The "peaceful" verses must be read with the "violent verses" otherwise the interpretation is skewed.
- In last 10 years of Muhammad's 's life he waged 29 offensive wars. Totaling 77 in total, only 1 defensive.
- In 100 years time, land from india to spain was conquered by the sword.
(I visited the ruins of a beautiful peaceful culture in South India that had no army and was totally annihilated by muslim hordes)
Please prove this... History is just an extrapolation of the archeological record. These variables may not necessarily be connected and may even be fabricated. Ultimately it is conjecture. You cannot judge the Quran based on history. It can either stand or fall by its own merits. Everything else is just an attempt at diversion and will not settle this debate. http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy
- there are 149 violent verses in total.
And all are justifiable by context
I can not escape from thinking that a peaceful interpretation of quran is actually a peaceful interpretation of PART of the quran, ignoring the rest including the above.
Ironically it is you who is reading a "part" of the Quran (cherry picking the violent verses). Read it as a whole and it is all justified.
Please refrain from referring to violent texts in other religious traditions, that would be evading the serious answer the world is waiting for.
Never mind that such texts (christian, hindu etc) are never seen as instructions to follow but as mythology or history telling.Ok. The Quran can stand on its own as a righteous book. I am telling you that the majority of people have an incomplete picture of the Quran including people who call themselves muslims. There have been many "muslims" that have come out and said that the Quran does not justify unprovoked aggression. But nobody is going to believe that are they? They would rather paint it as an facist and aggressive doctrine to suit their own agenda. What serious answer is the world waiting for?
6116 And if you obey the majority of those on Earth they will lead you away from God?s path; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess.
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However, retaliation is not a divine concept so we can easily dismiss this one as satanical.
A better and easier to understand (oriental) concept is that of karma. It simply means action=reaction, what you sow you shall reap, law of balance.
It is a divine teaching tool, not a control tool like the satanic concept of retaliation.Yes and retaliation is Karma isn't it? Please point to me what the difference is? Are you saying Karma cannot be met out in this world?
817 It was not you who killed them, but it was God who killed them. And it was not you who launched when you did, but it was God who launched. And so that the believers would be tested well by Him. God is Hearer, Knowledgeable.
818 That, and God weakens the plots of the rejecters.
819 If you sought conquest, then conquest has come to you, but if you cease, then it is better for you. And if you return again, then We will also return, and your group will avail you nothing even if it is many. God is with the believers.
914 Fight them; perhaps God will punish them by your hands and humiliate them and grant you victory over them and heal the chests of the believing people.
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Peace to all,
Thanks aalmakto, I couldnt have said it better myself. very well argued. It is ironic how anders cherry picks and reads out of context to try and make his point, which is easily defeated by the Quran itself. Also, the Quran always says to tend towards peace and forgiveness and restraint, and not ransgressing, what more do they want, and even if they think some verses are used by some muslims to justify violence this is not the fault of God or the Quran, it is their own decision to use violence unjustly and they will answer to God someday. The Quran says to foloow what is good in it, so where some of us may differ over meanings and interpretations, if we foloow what we believe is good then we should be ok, and we all know that it is good to have peace not war, and that it is good to forgive and not retaliate, so there are no satanic verses in the Quran as anders tried to say.
Kurt
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Salaam Anders,
I am not going to answer any of your questions nor exonerate the Qur'aan, but I am going to give you some advice, even if you do not want it
More humility would suit you a lot and would help you a lot to see what you do not see.
You have come here as a judge and accuser at the same time. All the polite answers other sisters and brothers may give you will not tell you anything because you come with the firm conviction that islam and Quran owes explanations to anybody. It doesn't. If you are interested in learning what the Qur'aan can teach you, come as a person looking for knowledge. If you are only interested in putting us in our place, you waste your time, we know our place.
You even go as far as asking us to explain to you, and the rest of the world... Speak for yourself, leave the rest of the world alone, it can look after itself without you acting on its behalf.
You also lie when you say that no other scripture gives injunctions or commandments to fight or kill... I know the bible contains of few of those, and I am fairly sure that if a look for them i will find them in all those scriptures you mention as an example to follow by the Quran... Do not ask me though to prove it, because it is not me who is defying anybody to point that kind of thing out and I am not interested in it at all. You are, you are not interested in finding what the Qur'aan has to offer to you, but to see if as a merchandise you can find a blot in it. That is not the right spirit to find anything at all, which makes me think that you have not found it either in any of those scriptures you mention and probably through your own lack of sincerity.
Is this a competing market see who has the best good to offer to the consumers of religion?
The Qur'aan has nothing to offer you if yo do not come with a pure heart, and this is the Quran who says. So know you know.
Salaam
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Salaam Anders,
Is this a competing market see who has the best good to offer to the consumers of religion?
The Qur'aan has nothing to offer you if yo do not come with a pure heart, and this is the Quran who says. So know you know.
Salaam
Salaam huruf,
handshake
I am putting here quote from Ander?s to sum up.
One should at least recognize that there is, or could be, more 'holy' objects than just one book.
Alternatively, one can ask is the quran holier than any other book?
Clearly, a positive answer to that question can be given only by those who have studied AND understood all relevant books.
Contrary to many christians who love studying a diversity of books, no muslim ever did that precisely because their programming compels them to look at quran only.
No need to object and say you know a muslim who did. I am generalizing here. Besides,open minded reading is still a far cry from reading with the intention to 'proof' that all others books are inferior.
Seek and ye shall find. This applies also to illusion, if thats what you seek.
Therefore it can not be that muslims could answer this question.Above is part of Anders first post on this forum, I hope he can see his own narrow- mindedness, as he has come with the very intention he accuses others of
"....open minded reading is still a far cry from reading with the intention to 'prove' ...."
By yourself you judge others."Contrary to many christians who love studying a diversity of books, no muslim ever did that precisely because their programming compels them to look at quran only"
For your information Anders, there was in the Middle ages a strong faction of Catholic scholastics (scholars of religion) called ?Averroists? after the Andalusian Muslim philosopher Averroes, due to their closely following his philosophy(Google it).
peace
