Quran inheritance mistake

unknownuser

I think kalalah may just mean "has no spouse" that is, a single man or woman

412 kalalatan awi imraatun

It?s redundant to say ?spouseless without a woman? unless to give definition perhaps.

412 concerns what siblings get when a kalalah with children dies.
4176 concerns what siblings get when a kalalah with no no children dies.

Interesting, then

412 applies only in case of a man with child
4176 applies in case of a man or woman without child

Question what is the case for spouseless woman?s inheritance with only a child?

Of course child inherits the whole.

Illogical that in case of a man, his child has to share with greedy uncles/aunts.

Notice that 4176 says if a man dies kalalah and has no children....

Perhaps another clue that a subset of definition means also childless.

412 kalalatan ? spouseless/childless and parents

4176 alkalalati ? spouseless/childless/fatherless and mother

I?m fairly the certain above works for all cases without contradicting.

unknownuser

Dear AGNOSTIC/Leoxyz -- good to see you post again and I'm sure we'll all benefit.

I never thought that common sense is so uncommon. The inheritance is being disussed .Is this not possible when a person dies ,then at the time death his father has already died and he has no children (either not born or dead) ???

I asked "How do you know for certain the person has no father?" NOT is this NOT possible.

In his Lughat ul Quran Pervaiz says that majority is in favor of the meaning that "Kalalah " is that who has no child or parents at the time of death. Reference Lughat ul Quran page 1452-1453.

Why -- was there a debate about the meaning of Kalalah?

Please read thread from beginning for there are numerous contradictions to address.

Case Mother; Brother
1/6 mother (411) + 1/6 brother (412) = 1/3 too little!

Case 3 Daughters, Father, Mother, Wife
2/3 daughters + 1/3 parents + 1/8 wife = too much!

Case Mother; Brother; Sister ? please tell us which verses to use?

004.011
YUSUFALI Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance) to the male, a portion equal to that of two females if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise.

Mother = 1/6

004.012
YUSUFALI In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to any one). Thus is it ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Most Forbearing.

Brother = 1/6
Sister = 1/6

004.176
YUSUFALI They ask thee for a legal decision. Say Allah directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs. If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them) if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female. Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things.

Brother = 2 * Sister

1/6 mother + 1/6 brother + 1/6 sister = ?

OR

1/6 mother + 2/6 brother + 1/6 sister = 2/3

Dictionary of the Holy Quran Page 494
?
To lose father and child
To lose direct heirs

One who has no child (412)
One who has neither parents left nor a child (4176)

I agree 4176 alkalalati includes childess/fatherless not sure about 412 kalalatan

Best regards!

unknownuser

I agree 4176 alkalalati includes childess/fatherless not sure about 412 kalalatan
Best regards!

Why not sure in the presence of fully explained Quran ??
Better if you can learn Language of the Quran so that you can understand the Quran instead of beating about the bush.
BTW I have seen name of some Leoxyz in many posts.Who is he ? Why all of you have this much leoxyz phobia that you are frightened even in your dreams.Why so much phobia??

unknownuser

Why not sure in the presence of fully explained Quran ??
Better if you can learn Language of the Quran so that you can understand the Quran instead of beating about the bush.
BTW I have seen name of some Leoxyz in many posts.Who is he ? Why all of you have this much leoxyz phobia that you are frightened even in your dreams.Why so much phobia??

Yes, I'm not sure about your interpretation because it contradicts.

Why you beating around the bush avoiding solving the simple case? You know lanquage of Qur'an, right?

Case 3 Daughters, Father, Mother, Wife
2/3 daughters + 1/3 parents + 1/8 wife = 1 + 1/8; why too much?

Case Mother; Brother; Sister ? please tell us which verses to use 412 or 4176 and which equation?

1/6 mother + 1/6 brother + 1/6 sister = ?
OR
1/6 mother + 2/6 brother + 1/6 sister = 2/3

Feel free to ask myself or Onur and we?ll teach you the forgotten wisdom of Al-Faraid.

Oh, and Leoxyz was the guy who was NOT SURE where his elbow was? ;D

Peace

Tay

Why all of you have this much leoxyz phobia that you are frightened even in your dreams.

Why do you keep changing names and ip addresses despite being banned?
You should have learned after your first warning how to discuss respectfully.

Jack

Hey Tay,

Is that what 5 times now or what? I've lost count !

peace

Tay

Peace Imran,

I've lost count too. The thing that I don't get is if someone is so determined to sneak their way back in to the forum, the least they could do is cease breaking the forum rules with the new identity. I mean, even if he somehow slipped through the cracks, he'd still get banned again for being the same way with people.

Which leads me to conclude that any resemblance to earnest contribution is just a smoke screen to disguise disdain. For whatever reason, some people just feel threatened by this forum and are compelled to try to throw a monkey wrench in the gears. I don't understand how people with so much knowledge of the qur'an can completely miss the theme of being kind and respectful to one another - and to remain open to new ideas. It's like they've memorized the mechanics but in the process, forgot what the machine is designed to do.

Peace,
Tay

Onur

Hello again Nun De Plume,

I believe you are hanging into the following for kalalatan

412 kalalatan ? spouseless/childless but have both parents

4176 alkalalati ? spouseless/childless/fatherless but has a mother

Is that so?

On another note I believe in the case of one brother and one mother, mother would still get her share 1/6 and the brother would get the rest 5/6 because the verse 4176 says that brother inherits the wealth of his sister. Some commentators insert the word "fully" there saying he (fully) inherits her but the word "fully" does not really exist.
Mother needs to get her share.

And Would you consider writing an article about inheritance after this discussion? Following points could be made

Since we do not want any remainders, we always take the fractions as variables( 2/3x, 1/6x, 1/2x) and set the total to 1. In the case when there are boys and girls together as children, there is no problem of remainder(because in such cases children get whatever remains after other shares are first distributed) and therefore we can assume X=1

I figured we do not really need the "what" and "from what" distinction because sometimes the distinction does not work as we have to make "from" cases variable as well.

kalalatan means different things for 412 and 4176.

What do you say?

Onur

unknownuser

Greetings Onur,

I believe you are hanging into the following for kalalatan

412 kalalatan ? spouseless/childless but have both parents

4176 alkalalati ? spouseless/childless/fatherless but has a mother

Is that so?

That is correct.

On another note I believe in the case of one brother and one mother, mother would still get her share 1/6 and the brother would get the rest 5/6 because the verse 4176 says that brother inherits the wealth of his sister. Some commentators insert the word "fully" there saying he (fully) inherits her but the word "fully" does not really exist.
Mother needs to get her share.

That is correct. Fully is only if brother/anyone being sole heir.

Else these cases would mean brother gets the whole amount

Brother; Mother
Brother; Husband
Brother; Mother; Husband

This contradicts?

411 ?so if brothers were for him, so to his mother the 1/6
412 ?And for you (P) ? what your (P) spouses/wives left, if (there) was/is not for them (F) a child

And Would you consider writing an article about inheritance after this discussion? Following points could be made

Since we do not want any remainders, we always take the fractions as variables( 2/3x, 1/6x, 1/2x) and set the total to 1. In the case when there are boys and girls together as children, there is no problem of remainder(because in such cases children get whatever remains after other shares are first distributed) and therefore we can assume X=1

I figured we do not really need the "what" and "from what" distinction because sometimes the distinction does not work as we have to make "from" cases variable as well.

Yes, it would be a benefit to write a non-contradicting interpretation since that is the only correct one.

I believe differentiation between M Taraka and Mimm Taraka is for a reason and part of instructions.

kalalatan means different things for 412 and 4176.

What do you say?

Yes similar to how nunation subtly changes the meaning of a term...

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%CA%BFr%C4%81b

I am unfortunately time constrained and welcome assistance from any members interested to help write this up as an article.

Peace

Onur

I was also excited about the "what"/ "from what" distinction but then it turned out that "from what" cases are sometimes treated as variables just like the "what" cases.

You can have a general rule like "you do not need to apply the algebra method if all your cases are "from what" cases"
But this general rule does not seem very insightful to me.

Upon reading our whole discussion again, I found your suggestion, what(the Arabic word ma)=X more helpful. what(ma)= a variable
As you say, In mathematical language, X denotes a question mark(like the word "what&quot So, if "ma" can mean "what?" in Arabic, we may have a ground for the algebra method.

Although, in spite of all this, I should say that, if I did not have other reasons to believe in Quran, I would probably stop believing in Quran just due to >1 problem. Thanks again for your help. I am really grateful. And I will probably put all this in an article format in near future.

Onur

Hati

Salaam,

General Equation
B=boys total share
G=girls
M=mother's share
F =father's share
W=Wife

B=2xG or G = B/2
Consider for example fractional part of the whole

B + G + M + F + W = 1
B + G + 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/8 = 1
B + G 11/24 = 1
B + G = 1-11/24
= 13/24 share of children

B + B/2 = 13/24
3B/2 = 13/24
B = 2/3 x 13/24 = two-thirds of children's share = 13/36. G = B/2 = 13/72

From above equation boys get two-thirds of children's share!

Who will get the 2/3 share of the boys?

Hati

Hati

Salaam,

General Equation
B=boys total share
G=girls
M=mother's share
F =father's share
W=Wife

B=2xG or G = B/2
Consider for example fractional part of the whole

B + G + M + F + W = 1
B + G + 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/8 = 1
B + G 11/24 = 1
B + G = 1-11/24
= 13/24 share of children

B + B/2 = 13/24
3B/2 = 13/24
B = 2/3 x 13/24 = two-thirds of children's share = 13/36. G = B/2 = 13/72

From above equation boys get two-thirds of children's share!

Who will get the 2/3 share of the boys if they are all girls, more than 2?

God charges you, concerning your children to the male the like of the portion of two females, and if they be women above two, then for them two-thirds of what he leaves, but if she be one then to her a half; and to his parents to each one of the two the sixth of what he leaves, if he has children; but if he has no children, and his heirs are his parents, a third to his mother, or, if he has brothers, to his mother a sixth, after any bequest he may bequeath, or any debt. Your fathers and your sons -- you know not which out of them is nearer in profit to you. So God apportions; surely God is All-knowing, All-wise.

Hati

Hati

Salaam,

General Equation
B=boys total share
G=girls
M=mother's share
F =father's share
W=Wife

B=2xG or G = B/2
Consider for example fractional part of the whole

B + G + M + F + W = 1
B + G + 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/8 = 1
B + G 11/24 = 1
B + G = 1-11/24
= 13/24 share of children

B + B/2 = 13/24
3B/2 = 13/24
B = 2/3 x 13/24 = two-thirds of children's share = 13/36. G = B/2 = 13/72

From above equation boys get two-thirds of children's share!

Who will get the 2/3 share of the boys if they are all girls, more than 2?

"God charges you, concerning your children to the male the like of the portion of two females, and if they be women above two, then for them two-thirds of what he leaves, but if she be one then to her a half; and to his parents to each one of the two the sixth of what he leaves, if he has children; but if he has no children, and his heirs are his parents, a third to his mother, or, if he has brothers, to his mother a sixth, after any bequest he may bequeath, or any debt. Your fathers and your sons -- you know not which out of them is nearer in profit to you. So God apportions; surely God is All-knowing, All-wise."

Hati

unknownuser

Greetings Hati,

B + B/2 = 13/24
3B/2 = 13/24
B = 2/3 x 13/24 = two-thirds of children's share = 13/36. G = B/2 = 13/72

From above equation boys get two-thirds of children's share!

Yes, that's only in above case when the number of boys equals the number of girls.

Who will get the 2/3 share of the boys if they are all girls, more than 2?

2/3 and 1/2 in verse 411 apply ONLY when there are daughters and no sons.
See template in prior post?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16179.msg161200#msg161200

Hopefully in example below the transition logic from what to what is apparent?

Case 2 Daughters; Wife; Father; Mother
1 ? (1/6 + 1/6 + 1/ = 2/3 what he left daughters
Let x = what
1 ? 2/3x = (1/6 + 1/6 + 1/x i.e. what he left parents/wife
1 ? 2/3x = 11/24x
1 = 11/24x + 16/24x = 27/24x
24/27 = x

ESTATE DISTRIBUTION
Daughters get 2/3 * 24/27 = 16/27 or 8/27 each
Wife gets 1/8 * 24/27 = 1/9
Father gets 1/6 * 24/27 = 4/27
Mother gets 1/6 * 24/27 = 4/27

Peace

Hati

Salam Nun,

Thanks for clarifying.

Yes, mine is the general equation. In a special case, like the "what" you have suggested
I have no objection.. For now its the best available solution.

Perhaps there is another solution....

... 'O my Lord, increase me in knowledge.'

God bless

Hati

Samia

2/3 and 1/2 in verse 411 apply ONLY when there are daughters and no sons.

Salaam Nun

I do not think there is a verse about daughters and no sons, or sons and no daughters, because this is redundant. It's only about "awladukum". Otherwise, where does it explain if there are only two daughters and no sons?

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

I do not think there is a verse about daughters and no sons, or sons and no daughters, because this is redundant. It's only about "awladukum". Otherwise, where does it explain if there are only two daughters and no sons?

411 God directs/commands/recommends you in your children, to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females, so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds (from) what he left, and if she was one, so for her the half...

The above IF statement; else contradicts ?

Take simple case of one daughter and one son
Girl gets ? and boy gets twice her amount...

? + 2/2 = 3/2 = 1.5 times total inheritance

Likewise, with two daughters and two sons
The girls get 2/3 or 1/3 each and boys get twice each girls amount...

1/3 + 1/3 + 2/3 + 2/3 = 6/3 = 2 times total inheritance

Hope the above clarifies.

Peace

Samia

Salaam Samia,

411 God directs/commands/recommends you in your children, to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females, so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds (from) what he left, and if she was one, so for her the half...

The above IF statement; else contradicts ?

Take simple case of one daughter and one son
Girl gets ? and boy gets twice her amount...

? + 2/2 = 3/2 = 1.5 times total inheritance

Likewise, with two daughters and two sons
The girls get 2/3 or 1/3 each and boys get twice each girls amount...

1/3 + 1/3 + 2/3 + 2/3 = 6/3 = 2 times total inheritance

Hope the above clarifies.

Peace

Salaam Nun
My question was about two females only (no sons).

? + 2/2 = 3/2 = 1.5 times total inheritance

The verse says "she will have the half of what he left", but here you are not giving her the half but a third.
How would you divide an inheritance of ?1000.00 in this case?

The verse says "the fortune (share of) the two females" as you correctly translate it, but then you apply it as if it says "twice the female". I believe that the "to the male the share of the two females" apply only when we have two females and one male and their multiple. Althrough the verse it is about sons and daughters, and all the mathematical possibilities. But you seem to stick to "female = 1/2 male", rendering the rest of the verse purposeless.

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

My question was about two females only (no sons).

411 ?so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds (from) what he left...

Therefore, when two or more females only (no sons) their share = 2/3 what he left.

How would you divide an inheritance of ?1000.00 in this case?

Not really sure which case so I'll do a few.

Case 1 daughter
Sole inheritor, she gets the whole amount; no need for inheritance laws.

Case 2 daughters
They split ?1000.00 evenly or ?500.00 each daughter

Case 1 daughter and 1 son
411 ?to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females
Let x = daughter share; 2x = son share
x + 2x = ?1000.00; 3x = ?1000.00
x = ?1000.00/3 = 1/3 daughter
(2* 1/3) * ?1000.00 = 2/3 son

Case 2 daughters and 1 son
411 ?to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females
Let x = daughter share; 2x = son share
x + x + 2x = ?1000.00; 4x = ?1000.00
x = ?1000.00/4 = 1/4 or ?250.00 each daughter
2*1/4 * ?1000.00 = 1/2 or ?500.00 son

The verse says "the fortune (share of) the two females" as you correctly translate it, but then you apply it as if it says "twice the female".

It?s the same M = F + F = 2F

I believe that the "to the male the share of the two females" apply only when we have two females and one male and their multiple.

Alright, how would you divide an inheritance of ?1000.00 in this case?

Case 2 daughters and 1 son
If 2/3 goes to the two daughters, then how do we also give 2/3 to the son?

Althrough the verse it is about sons and daughters, and all the mathematical possibilities. But you seem to stick to "female = 1/2 male", rendering the rest of the verse purposeless.

No, 411 ??to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females? is the general rule for any mixed daughter/son combination while rest of verse does serve a specific purpose?

?so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds (from) what he left, and if she was one, so for her the half...

Thus if they are girls ONLY (no sons) two or more they get 2/3 what he left, else if ONLY one daughter then she gets ? -- what he left is implied in context.

Let me know if you have more specific cases; think I'll go and do my taxes now and make out a will too... ;D

Samia

Salaam Samia,

411 ?so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds (from) what he left...

Therefore, when two or more females only (no sons) their share = 2/3 what he left.

Salaam Nun

The verse does not say "two or more". It says "women more/above two". There is no two daughters only, therefore the whole verse is about daughters when there are sons. Two daughters are already mentioned in the beginning of the the verse.

Case 1 daughter
Sole inheritor, she gets the whole amount; no need for inheritance laws.

Case 2 daughters
They split ?1000.00 evenly or ?500.00 each daughter

This is the correct answer bravo, which is contrary to the "Islamic/sharia" law

Likewise, with two daughters and two sons
The girls get 2/3 or 1/3 each and boys get twice each girls amount...

1/3 + 1/3 + 2/3 + 2/3 = 6/3 = 2 times total inheritance

Do we have an example of two females and two males? Don't you think this is more analogous to one female one male (since we have only the example of two females and one male)? In fact the verse does not bother to mention the males at all except in the beginning, so I think the formula should be completely different

2 females 1 male (21) Number of children respecting the ratio 21(e.g applicable to 4 females 2 males; 6 females 3 males...2n females n males)
1 female and X males (1/2 for the female; 1/2 for the male/males)

And as you and I agree, no verse for sole gender, males or females.
more than 2 females (2/3 for X females where X is more than two; 1/3 for the males).
In this way, no one gender is favoured over the other.