Quran inheritance mistake

Jack

Hey Tay,

Is that what 5 times now or what? I've lost count !

peace

Tay

Peace Imran,

I've lost count too. The thing that I don't get is if someone is so determined to sneak their way back in to the forum, the least they could do is cease breaking the forum rules with the new identity. I mean, even if he somehow slipped through the cracks, he'd still get banned again for being the same way with people.

Which leads me to conclude that any resemblance to earnest contribution is just a smoke screen to disguise disdain. For whatever reason, some people just feel threatened by this forum and are compelled to try to throw a monkey wrench in the gears. I don't understand how people with so much knowledge of the qur'an can completely miss the theme of being kind and respectful to one another - and to remain open to new ideas. It's like they've memorized the mechanics but in the process, forgot what the machine is designed to do.

Peace,
Tay

Onur

Hello again Nun De Plume,

I believe you are hanging into the following for kalalatan

412 kalalatan ? spouseless/childless but have both parents

4176 alkalalati ? spouseless/childless/fatherless but has a mother

Is that so?

On another note I believe in the case of one brother and one mother, mother would still get her share 1/6 and the brother would get the rest 5/6 because the verse 4176 says that brother inherits the wealth of his sister. Some commentators insert the word "fully" there saying he (fully) inherits her but the word "fully" does not really exist.
Mother needs to get her share.

And Would you consider writing an article about inheritance after this discussion? Following points could be made

Since we do not want any remainders, we always take the fractions as variables( 2/3x, 1/6x, 1/2x) and set the total to 1. In the case when there are boys and girls together as children, there is no problem of remainder(because in such cases children get whatever remains after other shares are first distributed) and therefore we can assume X=1

I figured we do not really need the "what" and "from what" distinction because sometimes the distinction does not work as we have to make "from" cases variable as well.

kalalatan means different things for 412 and 4176.

What do you say?

Onur

unknownuser

Greetings Onur,

I believe you are hanging into the following for kalalatan

412 kalalatan ? spouseless/childless but have both parents

4176 alkalalati ? spouseless/childless/fatherless but has a mother

Is that so?

That is correct.

On another note I believe in the case of one brother and one mother, mother would still get her share 1/6 and the brother would get the rest 5/6 because the verse 4176 says that brother inherits the wealth of his sister. Some commentators insert the word "fully" there saying he (fully) inherits her but the word "fully" does not really exist.
Mother needs to get her share.

That is correct. Fully is only if brother/anyone being sole heir.

Else these cases would mean brother gets the whole amount

Brother; Mother
Brother; Husband
Brother; Mother; Husband

This contradicts?

411 ?so if brothers were for him, so to his mother the 1/6
412 ?And for you (P) ? what your (P) spouses/wives left, if (there) was/is not for them (F) a child

And Would you consider writing an article about inheritance after this discussion? Following points could be made

Since we do not want any remainders, we always take the fractions as variables( 2/3x, 1/6x, 1/2x) and set the total to 1. In the case when there are boys and girls together as children, there is no problem of remainder(because in such cases children get whatever remains after other shares are first distributed) and therefore we can assume X=1

I figured we do not really need the "what" and "from what" distinction because sometimes the distinction does not work as we have to make "from" cases variable as well.

Yes, it would be a benefit to write a non-contradicting interpretation since that is the only correct one.

I believe differentiation between M Taraka and Mimm Taraka is for a reason and part of instructions.

kalalatan means different things for 412 and 4176.

What do you say?

Yes similar to how nunation subtly changes the meaning of a term...

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%CA%BFr%C4%81b

I am unfortunately time constrained and welcome assistance from any members interested to help write this up as an article.

Peace

Onur

I was also excited about the "what"/ "from what" distinction but then it turned out that "from what" cases are sometimes treated as variables just like the "what" cases.

You can have a general rule like "you do not need to apply the algebra method if all your cases are "from what" cases"
But this general rule does not seem very insightful to me.

Upon reading our whole discussion again, I found your suggestion, what(the Arabic word ma)=X more helpful. what(ma)= a variable
As you say, In mathematical language, X denotes a question mark(like the word "what&quot So, if "ma" can mean "what?" in Arabic, we may have a ground for the algebra method.

Although, in spite of all this, I should say that, if I did not have other reasons to believe in Quran, I would probably stop believing in Quran just due to >1 problem. Thanks again for your help. I am really grateful. And I will probably put all this in an article format in near future.

Onur

Hati

Salaam,

General Equation
B=boys total share
G=girls
M=mother's share
F =father's share
W=Wife

B=2xG or G = B/2
Consider for example fractional part of the whole

B + G + M + F + W = 1
B + G + 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/8 = 1
B + G 11/24 = 1
B + G = 1-11/24
= 13/24 share of children

B + B/2 = 13/24
3B/2 = 13/24
B = 2/3 x 13/24 = two-thirds of children's share = 13/36. G = B/2 = 13/72

From above equation boys get two-thirds of children's share!

Who will get the 2/3 share of the boys?

Hati

Hati

Salaam,

General Equation
B=boys total share
G=girls
M=mother's share
F =father's share
W=Wife

B=2xG or G = B/2
Consider for example fractional part of the whole

B + G + M + F + W = 1
B + G + 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/8 = 1
B + G 11/24 = 1
B + G = 1-11/24
= 13/24 share of children

B + B/2 = 13/24
3B/2 = 13/24
B = 2/3 x 13/24 = two-thirds of children's share = 13/36. G = B/2 = 13/72

From above equation boys get two-thirds of children's share!

Who will get the 2/3 share of the boys if they are all girls, more than 2?

God charges you, concerning your children to the male the like of the portion of two females, and if they be women above two, then for them two-thirds of what he leaves, but if she be one then to her a half; and to his parents to each one of the two the sixth of what he leaves, if he has children; but if he has no children, and his heirs are his parents, a third to his mother, or, if he has brothers, to his mother a sixth, after any bequest he may bequeath, or any debt. Your fathers and your sons -- you know not which out of them is nearer in profit to you. So God apportions; surely God is All-knowing, All-wise.

Hati

Hati

Salaam,

General Equation
B=boys total share
G=girls
M=mother's share
F =father's share
W=Wife

B=2xG or G = B/2
Consider for example fractional part of the whole

B + G + M + F + W = 1
B + G + 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/8 = 1
B + G 11/24 = 1
B + G = 1-11/24
= 13/24 share of children

B + B/2 = 13/24
3B/2 = 13/24
B = 2/3 x 13/24 = two-thirds of children's share = 13/36. G = B/2 = 13/72

From above equation boys get two-thirds of children's share!

Who will get the 2/3 share of the boys if they are all girls, more than 2?

"God charges you, concerning your children to the male the like of the portion of two females, and if they be women above two, then for them two-thirds of what he leaves, but if she be one then to her a half; and to his parents to each one of the two the sixth of what he leaves, if he has children; but if he has no children, and his heirs are his parents, a third to his mother, or, if he has brothers, to his mother a sixth, after any bequest he may bequeath, or any debt. Your fathers and your sons -- you know not which out of them is nearer in profit to you. So God apportions; surely God is All-knowing, All-wise."

Hati

unknownuser

Greetings Hati,

B + B/2 = 13/24
3B/2 = 13/24
B = 2/3 x 13/24 = two-thirds of children's share = 13/36. G = B/2 = 13/72

From above equation boys get two-thirds of children's share!

Yes, that's only in above case when the number of boys equals the number of girls.

Who will get the 2/3 share of the boys if they are all girls, more than 2?

2/3 and 1/2 in verse 411 apply ONLY when there are daughters and no sons.
See template in prior post?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16179.msg161200#msg161200

Hopefully in example below the transition logic from what to what is apparent?

Case 2 Daughters; Wife; Father; Mother
1 ? (1/6 + 1/6 + 1/ = 2/3 what he left daughters
Let x = what
1 ? 2/3x = (1/6 + 1/6 + 1/x i.e. what he left parents/wife
1 ? 2/3x = 11/24x
1 = 11/24x + 16/24x = 27/24x
24/27 = x

ESTATE DISTRIBUTION
Daughters get 2/3 * 24/27 = 16/27 or 8/27 each
Wife gets 1/8 * 24/27 = 1/9
Father gets 1/6 * 24/27 = 4/27
Mother gets 1/6 * 24/27 = 4/27

Peace

Hati

Salam Nun,

Thanks for clarifying.

Yes, mine is the general equation. In a special case, like the "what" you have suggested
I have no objection.. For now its the best available solution.

Perhaps there is another solution....

... 'O my Lord, increase me in knowledge.'

God bless

Hati

Samia

2/3 and 1/2 in verse 411 apply ONLY when there are daughters and no sons.

Salaam Nun

I do not think there is a verse about daughters and no sons, or sons and no daughters, because this is redundant. It's only about "awladukum". Otherwise, where does it explain if there are only two daughters and no sons?

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

I do not think there is a verse about daughters and no sons, or sons and no daughters, because this is redundant. It's only about "awladukum". Otherwise, where does it explain if there are only two daughters and no sons?

411 God directs/commands/recommends you in your children, to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females, so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds (from) what he left, and if she was one, so for her the half...

The above IF statement; else contradicts ?

Take simple case of one daughter and one son
Girl gets ? and boy gets twice her amount...

? + 2/2 = 3/2 = 1.5 times total inheritance

Likewise, with two daughters and two sons
The girls get 2/3 or 1/3 each and boys get twice each girls amount...

1/3 + 1/3 + 2/3 + 2/3 = 6/3 = 2 times total inheritance

Hope the above clarifies.

Peace

Samia

Salaam Samia,

411 God directs/commands/recommends you in your children, to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females, so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds (from) what he left, and if she was one, so for her the half...

The above IF statement; else contradicts ?

Take simple case of one daughter and one son
Girl gets ? and boy gets twice her amount...

? + 2/2 = 3/2 = 1.5 times total inheritance

Likewise, with two daughters and two sons
The girls get 2/3 or 1/3 each and boys get twice each girls amount...

1/3 + 1/3 + 2/3 + 2/3 = 6/3 = 2 times total inheritance

Hope the above clarifies.

Peace

Salaam Nun
My question was about two females only (no sons).

? + 2/2 = 3/2 = 1.5 times total inheritance

The verse says "she will have the half of what he left", but here you are not giving her the half but a third.
How would you divide an inheritance of ?1000.00 in this case?

The verse says "the fortune (share of) the two females" as you correctly translate it, but then you apply it as if it says "twice the female". I believe that the "to the male the share of the two females" apply only when we have two females and one male and their multiple. Althrough the verse it is about sons and daughters, and all the mathematical possibilities. But you seem to stick to "female = 1/2 male", rendering the rest of the verse purposeless.

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

My question was about two females only (no sons).

411 ?so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds (from) what he left...

Therefore, when two or more females only (no sons) their share = 2/3 what he left.

How would you divide an inheritance of ?1000.00 in this case?

Not really sure which case so I'll do a few.

Case 1 daughter
Sole inheritor, she gets the whole amount; no need for inheritance laws.

Case 2 daughters
They split ?1000.00 evenly or ?500.00 each daughter

Case 1 daughter and 1 son
411 ?to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females
Let x = daughter share; 2x = son share
x + 2x = ?1000.00; 3x = ?1000.00
x = ?1000.00/3 = 1/3 daughter
(2* 1/3) * ?1000.00 = 2/3 son

Case 2 daughters and 1 son
411 ?to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females
Let x = daughter share; 2x = son share
x + x + 2x = ?1000.00; 4x = ?1000.00
x = ?1000.00/4 = 1/4 or ?250.00 each daughter
2*1/4 * ?1000.00 = 1/2 or ?500.00 son

The verse says "the fortune (share of) the two females" as you correctly translate it, but then you apply it as if it says "twice the female".

It?s the same M = F + F = 2F

I believe that the "to the male the share of the two females" apply only when we have two females and one male and their multiple.

Alright, how would you divide an inheritance of ?1000.00 in this case?

Case 2 daughters and 1 son
If 2/3 goes to the two daughters, then how do we also give 2/3 to the son?

Althrough the verse it is about sons and daughters, and all the mathematical possibilities. But you seem to stick to "female = 1/2 male", rendering the rest of the verse purposeless.

No, 411 ??to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females? is the general rule for any mixed daughter/son combination while rest of verse does serve a specific purpose?

?so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds (from) what he left, and if she was one, so for her the half...

Thus if they are girls ONLY (no sons) two or more they get 2/3 what he left, else if ONLY one daughter then she gets ? -- what he left is implied in context.

Let me know if you have more specific cases; think I'll go and do my taxes now and make out a will too... ;D

Samia

Salaam Samia,

411 ?so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds (from) what he left...

Therefore, when two or more females only (no sons) their share = 2/3 what he left.

Salaam Nun

The verse does not say "two or more". It says "women more/above two". There is no two daughters only, therefore the whole verse is about daughters when there are sons. Two daughters are already mentioned in the beginning of the the verse.

Case 1 daughter
Sole inheritor, she gets the whole amount; no need for inheritance laws.

Case 2 daughters
They split ?1000.00 evenly or ?500.00 each daughter

This is the correct answer bravo, which is contrary to the "Islamic/sharia" law

Likewise, with two daughters and two sons
The girls get 2/3 or 1/3 each and boys get twice each girls amount...

1/3 + 1/3 + 2/3 + 2/3 = 6/3 = 2 times total inheritance

Do we have an example of two females and two males? Don't you think this is more analogous to one female one male (since we have only the example of two females and one male)? In fact the verse does not bother to mention the males at all except in the beginning, so I think the formula should be completely different

2 females 1 male (21) Number of children respecting the ratio 21(e.g applicable to 4 females 2 males; 6 females 3 males...2n females n males)
1 female and X males (1/2 for the female; 1/2 for the male/males)

And as you and I agree, no verse for sole gender, males or females.
more than 2 females (2/3 for X females where X is more than two; 1/3 for the males).
In this way, no one gender is favoured over the other.

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

1 female and X males (1/2 for the female; 1/2 for the male/males)

Contradicts 411 ??to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females?

Case 1 Daughter; 5 Sons
Daughter = ?
Each son = 1/10

more than 2 females (2/3 for X females where X is more than two; 1/3 for the males).
In this way, no one gender is favoured over the other.

Again contradicts??to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females?

In addition, it falls apparent mathematically with parents and/or spouse?

Case 2 Daughters; 10 Sons; Wife; Father; Mother

2/3 + 1/3 = 1; what about wife and parents?

Also, each girl gets 1/3 while each son gets 1/30?

The system/interpretation needs to work for any and all cases and not contradict; should be thus...

Case 2 Daughters; 10 Sons; Wife; Father; Mother
1 ? (1/8 + 1/6 + 1/6) = children?s share @21 ratio male to female per 411
1 ? 11/24 = 13/24
x = girl; 2x = boy
x + x + 10(2x) = 13/24 = 22x
13/528 = x

ESTATE DISTRIBUTION
Sons get 13/264 each
Daughters get 13/528 each
Wife gets 1/8
Father gets 1/6
Mother gets 1/6

Peace

Hati

Salam,

Case 2 Daughters; Wife; Father; Mother
1 ? (1/6 + 1/6 + 1/ = 2/3 what he left daughters
Let x = what
1 ? 2/3x = (1/6 + 1/6 + 1/x i.e. what he left parents/wife
1 ? 2/3x = 11/24x
1 = 11/24x + 16/24x = 27/24x
24/27 = x

ESTATE DISTRIBUTION
Daughters get 2/3 * 24/27 = 16/27 or 8/27 each
Wife gets 1/8 * 24/27 = 1/9
Father gets 1/6 * 24/27 = 4/27
Mother gets 1/6 * 24/27 = 4/27

Let me extend my confusion. In the above quote

2/3x = share of the girls
1 ? 2/3x = left to be shared by parents & wife
1/6(1 ? 2/3x ) = share of mother
1/6(1 ? 2/3x ) = share of father
1/8(1 ? 2/3x ) = share of wife

Equation
1/6(1 ? 2/3x ) + 1/6(1 ? 2/3x ) + 1/8(1 ? 2/3x ) = 1 ? 2/3x
11/24(1 ? 2/3x ) = 1 ? 2/3x
11/24 = 1

(1/6 + 1/6 + 1/x = share of parents &wife

2/3(1 - (1/6 + 1/6 + 1/x) = share of girls

(1/6 + 1/6 + 1/x + 2/3(1 - (1/6 + 1/6 + 1/x) = 1

11/24x=1
x = 24/11

Hati

unknownuser

Salam Hati,

Let me extend my confusion. In the above quote

2/3x = share of the girls
1 ? 2/3x = left to be shared by parents & wife

You were ok so far until...

1/6(1 ? 2/3x ) = share of mother
1/6(1 ? 2/3x ) = share of father
1/8(1 ? 2/3x ) = share of wife

Equation
1/6(1 ? 2/3x ) + 1/6(1 ? 2/3x ) + 1/8(1 ? 2/3x ) = 1 ? 2/3x
11/24(1 ? 2/3x ) = 1 ? 2/3x
11/24 = 1

11/24 != 1

The above does not equate.

(1/6 + 1/6 + 1/x = share of parents &wife

Again you were correct above; now combine the two you got right into equation and solve, thus

1 ? 2/3x = left to be shared by parents & wife

(1/6 + 1/6 + 1/x = share of parents &wife

1 ? 2/3x = (1/6 + 1/6 + 1/x

1 ? 2/3x = 1/6x + 1/6x + 1/8x
1 = 1/6x + 1/6x + 1/8x + 2/3x
1 = 4/24x + 4/24x + 3/24x + 16/24x
1 = 27/24x
24/27 = x

DISTRIBUTION
Daughters get 2/3 * 24/27 = 16/27 or 8/27 each
Wife gets 1/8 * 24/27 = 1/9
Father gets 1/6 * 24/27 = 4/27
Mother gets 1/6 * 24/27 = 4/27

Hati

Salaam,

Case 2 Daughters; Wife; Father; Mother
1 ? (1/6 + 1/6 + 1/ = 2/3 what he left daughters
Let x = what
1 ? 2/3x = (1/6 + 1/6 + 1/x i.e. what he left parents/wife

I find the red and blue in above equation does not match. Consider the following

Given that 2/3 x = share of the girls
1 ? 2/3x = what he left parents/wife

Very clear this amount is to be shared by parents and wife

1/6 for mother = 1/6 (1-2/3 x)
1/6 for father = 1/6 (1-2/3 x)
1/8 for wife = 1/8 (1-2/3 x)

But the problem is
(1/6 + 1/6 + 1/x = what he left parents/wife = 11/24 x

If so, then

1 - 11/24 x = share of the girls !

That makes 1 ? 2/3x <> (1/6 + 1/6 + 1/x = 11/24 x

because 1-11/24 x <> 1 - 2/3 x

hati

unknownuser

I find the red and blue in above equation does not match. Consider the following

Given that 2/3 x = share of the girls
1 ? 2/3x = what he left parents/wife

Very clear this amount is to be shared by parents and wife

1/6 for mother = 1/6 (1-2/3 x)
1/6 for father = 1/6 (1-2/3 x)
1/8 for wife = 1/8 (1-2/3 x)

But the problem is
(1/6 + 1/6 + 1/x = what he left parents/wife = 11/24 x

If so, then

1 - 11/24 x = share of the girls !

Therefore 1 ? 11/24x = 2/3x (i.e. share of the girls)

That makes 1 ? 2/3x <> (1/6 + 1/6 + 1/x = 11/24 x

because 1-11/24 x <> 1 - 2/3 x

(1 ? 2/3x) in above equation should be 2/3x instead.

Peace