another simple question to gauge traditional mindset...
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Peace Rajah,
Quote from Raj-ah on January 23, 2008, 031443 AM
Can you tell me what is a Traditional Muslim?
I have heared westereners all the time chanting "Fundamentalist" Muslims and now Muslims Chanting "Traditional" Muslims.A Traditionalist Muslim (Capital M) is someone who supposedly follows "traditions" of what they believe is Islam (capital I). Fortunately, there are no Traditionalist Muslims since such traditions would obligate people to do really bad things and would turn society into a medievel mess (think Taliban).
Salaam to you too Ayman
I agree with what you are saying, I even agreed with Wakas for what he said regarding a Tradional Muslim, but the way he is treating them or labelling them is not acceptable to me.
Ayman
Rajah, you are not as Traditionalist as you think. On another thread you said kissing the Black Stone and prostrating at a foot print and the supposed prophet tomb are corruptions. Try going to those places and proclaim loudly what you said here on this forum, you would surely be beaten up or maybe even stoned to death by an angry mob of those who are more "traditionalists Muslims". At this point, you have more in common with Wakas and most people here and you are more united with us than with so-called Traditionalist Muslims. Think about it. The truth that you said about the corruptions causes you to be more distant from them and closer to us. This is empirical verification of the real direction towards the truth.
I never think that I am a person who follows Traditions blind foldely.
The only thing I was trying to point out was that THE WAY Wakas is trying to treat Fellow Muslim brothers and sisters who Follow Traditions is not FAIR.Thanks for understanding and your comments.
Salam.
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Wakas
Raj-ah, if the strength of your argument is to cite paintings by people not there at the time and Hollywood films, then that tells me a lot. Secondly, your quote of Quran involving Aaron, shows he had a beard (I've pointed this out on the forum myself before) but he was not included in your list in your original post, so is irrelevant. Furthermore, you completely ignored the second ppoint I made... again, showing no response, tells me a lot.
Mr. Wakas as supposedly you live in a European or American country, You should know that a Movie made on any historical figure is not just in air, extensive research is carried out and I will give you references for that.
I have quoted Quran and Bible and You have said nothing on this. We will come to 2nd point but let us decide about the first point.
I said Muhammad, Moses, Jesus and other Prophets grew beard and you were asking for the evidence, correct?
What type of evidence you need? from your post what I feel is only one who can satisfy you is one of those Prophets coming back to this world and having a debate with you! If you need anything less then that I am ready to provide that.
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peace,
Cutting short is probably no problem, but shaving and all other anti-hair techniques would stop the hair from doing its duty to protect the skin, like help protect the pores and protect germs from coming directly to the skin - the germs, pollution, etc are trapped at the hair instead and hair keeps on coming out to replace/push out the old. Hair is also a natural dry lubricator for rubbing areas of the body, protects heat loss, and even UV rays. It is also a natural mark for differentiation of sex
The skin is a superb natural barrier to germs, so it doesn't matter if they reach the skin like they would on other parts of one's face, it is only a problem if there are cuts on the skin, and like you and I said, very short stubble in this case is probably best. I dont see how rubbing areas of the body applies here, and the heat loss and UV argument whilst technically correct, should take into account the parts of the face that are uncovered and thus would have to show the bearded area is more at risk to these in some way. Short stubble seems a good differentiator between sexes too. The main point however is to do with cleanliness.
...but the way he is treating them or labelling them is not acceptable to me.
Interesting. Asking a simple question is somehow treating them (harshly?) or labelling them.
I have quoted Quran and Bible and You have said nothing on this.
Perhaps you should re-read, as I did comment on your reference from Quran.
I said Muhammad, Moses, Jesus and other Prophets
Again, I recommend re-reading what you wrote, then perhaps you will accept what you wrote. If you still disagree, simply re-quote yourself for all to see, IF you speak the truth.
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Peace Wakas,
Thanks for your explanations.
peace,
The skin is a superb natural barrier to germs, so it doesn't matter if they reach the skin like they would on other parts of one's face, it is only a problem if there are cuts on the skin, and like you and I said, very short stubble in this case is probably best. I dont see how rubbing areas of the body applies here, and the heat loss and UV argument whilst technically correct, should take into account the parts of the face that are uncovered and thus would have to show the bearded area is more at risk to these in some way. Short stubble seems a good differentiator between sexes too. The main point however is to do with cleanliness.(In rubbing, I was not talking about beard, I meant hair in other parts of the body... armpit for example. Heat loss, I meant hair in general...)
Yes, it's interesting that not all parts of the face are covered with beard, and the women don't have beards too. The main benefit as I see upto now is differentiation between the sexes. I am sure that God has reasons that ha made them grow and God surely knows more than us - and He made it grow on those parts of the face of men.
I would like to re-state that I am sure that God made men have beards grow for reasons and it's not natural at all to try to get-rid of it or not happy with it. I submit to God so I also happy with His will that He made beard grow on me.
Although I never saw a command to keep a beard anywhere in the Quran, I never saw a command to shave it too. Therefore, I would not say that you must have beards or you must not have long beards because it might be "more dirty".
I would not say long beard is dirty if you treat it right - in the same way that I wouldn't say women or men with long hair are dirty - it depends on how the person cleans it.
Like Rajah pointed out, even a good person stated in Quran on a great mission for God have beards that are grab-able (long enough to grab = long) like Haroon
2094 He said "O son of my mother, do not grab me by my beard nor by my head. I feared that you would say that I separated between the Children of Israel, and that I did not follow your orders."
I just want to re-state here that it is natural that beards grow and I am sure that God made them grow for reasons.
I also want to re-state here that long beard doesn't mean "more dirty".
Peace,
Zidane. -
Zidane
I would like to re-state that I am sure that God made men have beards grow for reasons and it's not natural at all to try to get-rid of it or not happy with it. I submit to God so I also happy with His will that He made beard grow on me.
Although I never saw a command to keep a beard anywhere in the Quran, I never saw a command to shave it too. Therefore, I would not say that you must have beards or you must not have long beards because it might be "more dirty".
I would not say long beard is dirty if you treat it right - in the same way that I wouldn't say women or men with long hair are dirty - it depends on how the person cleans it.
Like Rajah pointed out, even a good person stated in Quran on a great mission for God have beards that are grab-able (long enough to grab = long) like Haroon
2094 He said "O son of my mother, do not grab me by my beard nor by my head. I feared that you would say that I separated between the Children of Israel, and that I did not follow your orders."
I just want to re-state here that it is natural that beards grow and I am sure that God made them grow for reasons.
I also want to re-state here that long beard doesn't mean "more dirty".
Peace,
Zidane.May Allah be pleased with you.
Wakas
Interesting. Asking a simple question is somehow treating them (harshly?) or labelling them.
You are just not sensing the gravity of your question and the hidden mock in it. Just take a look again at your question and your intentions, with a cool mind and you will feel the truth.
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Peace Raj-ah,
You are just not sensing the gravity of your question and the hidden mock in it. Just take a look again at your question and your intentions, with a cool mind and you will feel the truth.
Agreed.
For me, such a question as suggested in the start of this topic has a clear sense of mocking and negativity.
It is probably not a good way to promote/suggest people to Monotheism.
It is probably better to discuss with people in the best possible manners, with respect and in peace.
May God Guide.
Zidane. -
Although I never saw a command to keep a beard anywhere in the Quran, I never saw a command to shave it too. Therefore, I would not say that you must have beards or you must not have long beards because it might be "more dirty".
I don't recall seeing in the Quran that hair of any kind needs to be cut or shaved, or grown short or long. Seems to me that how we want to maintain our hair is up to us... either way is acceptable.
peace,
dotty -
I would also ask another question that I have not been able to figure out..
If I am just fresh after a shower...the cleanest I would probably be in the day....why do I have to do wudhu before I can "pray" or "touch" the Quran. That is if performing wudhu denotes cleaning oneself.
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I would also ask another question that I have not been able to figure out..
If I am just fresh after a shower...the cleanest I would probably be in the day....why do I have to do wudhu before I can "pray" or "touch" the Quran. That is if performing wudhu denotes cleaning oneself.
I don't see where you got that obligation from at all. A complete shower would obviously include ablutions.
I don't recall seeing in the Quran that hair of any kind needs to be cut or shaved, or grown short or long. Seems to me that how we want to maintain our hair is up to us... either way is acceptable.
peace,
dottyExactly. Sincerity doesn't come from beard length, period.
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Salaam
To make difference betwen the men and the women, a long giant beard isn't needed, i have short facial hairs, and we can clearly see by that that i am a man.
Some men do look like women. They so look like women it's disturbing. They are called "traps" or transexual people.
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peace,
I also want to re-state here that long beard doesn't mean "more dirty".
A beard means more dust/dirt/grime/germs than no beard, this is a fact. "dirty" is more of a subjective term.
You are just not sensing the gravity of your question and the hidden mock in it. Just take a look again at your question and your intentions, with a cool mind and you will feel the truth.
The "gravity of the question" or the "hidden mock in it" is only for those who wish to answer the question in an illogical manner or are unwilling to admit to it. It is perhaps understandable you feel it is mocking, because you are the one who answered it with an illogical response, so yes, to you, it would seem mocking.
For me, such a question as suggested in the start of this topic has a clear sense of mocking and negativity.
It is probably not a good way to promote/suggest people to Monotheism.
It is probably better to discuss with people in the best possible manners, with respect and in peace.
The question is primarily about gauging mindset, or to make a point so that they can reflect, promoting/suggesting monotheism would be secondary. I have had great conversations with Traditional/Sunni Muslims, of course them being logical was a pre-requesite.
Do you also feel Abraham asking his people to ask their biggest idol who smashed their other idols was mocking or negative?
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Whether it is mocking or not depends alot on the manner in which you vocalise the sentence. If you sound all arrogant and self-righteous I would think you are mocking. If you are soft-spoken, I would think they are just sincerely asking it.
I read somewhere that a large percentage of our communication is from Body Language, facial features and tone.
Perhaps in Rajah's mind he imagined Wakas speaking in an arrogant tone?
So its just a misunderstanding sun
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Peace dear brother Wakas.
peace,
A beard means more dust/dirt/grime/germs than no beard, this is a fact. "dirty" is more of a subjective term.No, it is not fact to me. It depends on how each person cleans it. A man with a beard and cleans it well is, to me, more clean on his face than a shaved man who doesn't clean his face well - you can look at it that way too. And also more clean than a man who shaved and got cuts or infections on his face too.
You're statement sounds to me as if you suggest that God's design to have beard on a man's face makes him more dirty... it depends on how a person cleans it.
In the same way, a woman with long hair doesn't mean more dirty than a woman with short hair.
According to your logic, all people who have long hair carry more dust/dirt/grime/germs than those with short hair? Or it depends on how a person cleans it? In case of a same person, when he/she has long hair, he should normally take more care of his/her hair's cleanliness - and this could result in either more or less cleaner - as I said - it depends on how a person cleans it at a particular timespan.
God's design is perfect and has reasons in it. That's what I want to say - don't say that a beard is dirty.
The question is primarily about gauging mindset, or to make a point so that they can reflect, promoting/suggesting monotheism would be secondary. I have had great conversations with Traditional/Sunni Muslims, of course them being logical was a pre-requesite.
Do you also feel Abraham asking his people to ask their biggest idol who smashed their other idols was mocking or negative?
Please understand that Abraham's question is not the same as your question, because your question is suggesting that God's design of a beard is dirty. Even Haroon has grab-able beard and I'm sure he's not "dirty" as your theory suggests.
No problem if you want to ask to make people reflect, but this idea of long beard = dirty is not natural to me. It sounds mocking to me because it's not happy with God's design.
Peace,
Zidane. -
Whether it is mocking or not depends alot on the manner in which you vocalise the sentence. If you sound all arrogant and self-righteous I would think you are mocking. If you are soft-spoken, I would think they are just sincerely asking it.
I read somewhere that a large percentage of our communication is from Body Language, facial features and tone.
Perhaps in Rajah's mind he imagined Wakas speaking in an arrogant tone?
So its just a misunderstanding sun
Thanks, Agreed. It depends a lot on that too.
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peace brother Zidane,
I said it is a fact a beard means more dust/dirt/grime/germs than no beard... you wrote
No, it is not fact to me. It depends on how each person cleans it. A man with a beard and cleans it well is, to me, more clean on his face than a shaved man who doesn't clean his face well - you can look at it that way too. And also more clean than a man who shaved and got cuts or infections on his face too.
You are not comparing like with like, by introducing more than one variable. If you conducted a scientific study using your above methodology, it would be criticised because it could reach no conclusion. In order to compare like with like, each must clean their face the same way/time/intensity... afterwards, we could then test which has the most dirt/dust/grime/germs etc (ddgg etc) and it would be the one with the beard.
According to your logic, all people who have long hair carry more dust/dirt/grime/germs than those with short hair? Or it depends on how a person cleans it? In case of a same person, when he/she has long hair, he should normally take more care of his/her hair's cleanliness - and this could result in either more or less cleaner - as I said - it depends on how a person cleans it at a particular timespan.
You suggest above that a long hair person would take more care of it, thus it is highly likely their level of cleaning would have to be higher to get the reduced level of ddgg etc. I have no problem with that but I am confident a long hair/beard person will still have more ddgg etc than a short hair/beard person, even after a more intense cleaning. It is simple maths, larger surface area for ddgg etc to be on.
God's design is perfect and has reasons in it. That's what I want to say - don't say that a beard is dirty.
Let's stick with what I actually said, as I did not use the term "dirty", and I also clarified the difference in what I said. Please do not try to build a strawman argument against me to discredit what I'm saying.
Please understand that Abraham's question is not the same as your question, because your question is suggesting that God's design of a beard is dirty. Even Haroon has grab-able beard and I'm sure he's not "dirty" as your theory suggests.
Again, let's stick with what I actually said, as I did not use the term "dirty", and I also clarified the difference in what I said. Please do not try to build a strawman argument against me to discredit what I'm saying.
Can I assume by your above statement, you do not find Abraham's question mocking or negative?Speaking of God's design, do you cut your toe nails? If so, please explain to us why you are not happy with God's design with regard to this.
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God's design is perfect and has reasons in it. That's what I want to say - don't say that a beard is dirty.
I don't understand where you say that. Where in the quran does it say something like that? If as you say, that god created these things as perfect, then surely you wouldn't have rampant homosexuality in some animal kingdoms, or conversely, you wouldn't look at animals and think they are imperfect in some way (i.e. killing each other for food), or as Wakas says, you wouldn't clip your toe-nails, etc?
In any case, a more perfect design would be to have us covered in either lots of hair or no hair. Why is that not the case? Because "God's design" is purely dependant on the person's location and ancestors. How many Africans do you know with a beard?
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Peace dear brother Wakas,
You are not comparing like with like, by introducing more than one variable. If you conducted a scientific study using your above methodology, it would be criticised because it could reach no conclusion. In order to compare like with like, each must clean their face the same way/time/intensity... afterwards, we could then test which has the most dirt/dust/grime/germs etc (ddgg etc) and it would be the one with the beard.
I understand. I introduced that because in reality, people naturally introduce that extra cleaning - both for hair or beard. The "cleanliness issue" depends a lot on how the person cleans himself/herself.
You suggest above that a long hair person would take more care of it, thus it is highly likely their level of cleaning would have to be higher to get the reduced level of ddgg etc. I have no problem with that but I am confident a long hair/beard person will still have more ddgg etc than a short hair/beard person, even after a more intense cleaning. It is simple maths, larger surface area for ddgg etc to be on.
I agree on this in the physical sense. I just want to say that, after well cleaning, it doesn't mean "dirty" in the "cleanliness issue" sense.
Because you're mentioning that long beard "contradicts the cleanliness issue", I felt that your question at the start of the topic implies that long beard men are "dirty" - that's why I wrote my posts. I also say that Haroon is not "dirty" by having long grab-able beard that would seem to "contradict the cleanliness issue" which I imply to mean "dirty".
Let's stick with what I actually said, as I did not use the term "dirty", and I also clarified the difference in what I said. Please do not try to build a strawman argument against me to discredit what I'm saying.
My apology dear brother, you didn't use the term dirty - that's true. By reading your starting post, when I see "contradicts the cleanliness issue", it implies to me like that, so I'm writing to show that it's not "dirty" - I also showed that either too long or too short(shave) is probably not best. And you and me agree on that short stubble is probably the best middle-way.
I write because I just want to show to all that long beard or long hair doesn't mean dirty - it depends on how a person cleans it. And it is more natural to have it than trying to get rid of it.
I really apologize to you if it seems like a strawman against you, I have no intention of that. Sorry dear brother.
Can I assume by your above statement, you do not find Abraham's question mocking or negative?
Sincerely speaking, it seems to be negative to me - thanks for the reminder - it probably depends a lot with the intention - possibly to make them reflect like you said. I also depends on tone of vioce like aalmakto said. My apology dear brother.
Speaking of God's design, do you cut your toe nails? If so, please explain to us why you are not happy with God's design with regard to this.
Please don't build a strawman argument against me too. I never meant/said don't cut hair or don't shave or don't cut nails. I never meant/said that doing so is implying that you're not happy with God's design.
For me, I meant/said "Not happy with God's design" for the idea that these natural things "contradict with the cleanliness" (and I'm not trying to defend any narrations by this... I want to be unbiased.).
I want to point out that shaving beard or cutting nails too short, may harm you more than keeping it at a moderate length because in God's design, there are objectives for all creation. And also, saying that if they're long then they're not clean is not true to me - it depends on how the person cleans it.
The middle way is best - and we already agreed upon that. I already wrote about this nail example, dear brother Wakas, OPF
As with all things, I am sure that God lets all hair grow for purposes and I thank God for it.
Cutting short is probably no problem, but shaving and all other anti-hair techniques would stop the hair from doing its duty to protect the skin, like help protect the pores and protect germs from coming directly to the skin - the germs, pollution, etc are trapped at the hair instead and hair keeps on coming out to replace/push out the old. Hair is also a natural dry lubricator for rubbing areas of the body, protects heat loss, and even UV rays. It is also a natural mark for differentiation of sex
As with all things, the middle way is best, like nails, if your nail is too long, it'll collect germs, if it's too deeply cut then it's hard to handle things and gets injured, infected easily.
I hope you understand what I want to say.
I really apologize if I seem to offend you in anyway. Full respect to both of you.
Peace,
Zidane.
