another simple question to gauge traditional mindset...
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I would also ask another question that I have not been able to figure out..
If I am just fresh after a shower...the cleanest I would probably be in the day....why do I have to do wudhu before I can "pray" or "touch" the Quran. That is if performing wudhu denotes cleaning oneself.
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I would also ask another question that I have not been able to figure out..
If I am just fresh after a shower...the cleanest I would probably be in the day....why do I have to do wudhu before I can "pray" or "touch" the Quran. That is if performing wudhu denotes cleaning oneself.
I don't see where you got that obligation from at all. A complete shower would obviously include ablutions.
I don't recall seeing in the Quran that hair of any kind needs to be cut or shaved, or grown short or long. Seems to me that how we want to maintain our hair is up to us... either way is acceptable.
peace,
dottyExactly. Sincerity doesn't come from beard length, period.
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Salaam
To make difference betwen the men and the women, a long giant beard isn't needed, i have short facial hairs, and we can clearly see by that that i am a man.
Some men do look like women. They so look like women it's disturbing. They are called "traps" or transexual people.
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peace,
I also want to re-state here that long beard doesn't mean "more dirty".
A beard means more dust/dirt/grime/germs than no beard, this is a fact. "dirty" is more of a subjective term.
You are just not sensing the gravity of your question and the hidden mock in it. Just take a look again at your question and your intentions, with a cool mind and you will feel the truth.
The "gravity of the question" or the "hidden mock in it" is only for those who wish to answer the question in an illogical manner or are unwilling to admit to it. It is perhaps understandable you feel it is mocking, because you are the one who answered it with an illogical response, so yes, to you, it would seem mocking.
For me, such a question as suggested in the start of this topic has a clear sense of mocking and negativity.
It is probably not a good way to promote/suggest people to Monotheism.
It is probably better to discuss with people in the best possible manners, with respect and in peace.
The question is primarily about gauging mindset, or to make a point so that they can reflect, promoting/suggesting monotheism would be secondary. I have had great conversations with Traditional/Sunni Muslims, of course them being logical was a pre-requesite.
Do you also feel Abraham asking his people to ask their biggest idol who smashed their other idols was mocking or negative?
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Whether it is mocking or not depends alot on the manner in which you vocalise the sentence. If you sound all arrogant and self-righteous I would think you are mocking. If you are soft-spoken, I would think they are just sincerely asking it.
I read somewhere that a large percentage of our communication is from Body Language, facial features and tone.
Perhaps in Rajah's mind he imagined Wakas speaking in an arrogant tone?
So its just a misunderstanding sun
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Peace dear brother Wakas.
peace,
A beard means more dust/dirt/grime/germs than no beard, this is a fact. "dirty" is more of a subjective term.No, it is not fact to me. It depends on how each person cleans it. A man with a beard and cleans it well is, to me, more clean on his face than a shaved man who doesn't clean his face well - you can look at it that way too. And also more clean than a man who shaved and got cuts or infections on his face too.
You're statement sounds to me as if you suggest that God's design to have beard on a man's face makes him more dirty... it depends on how a person cleans it.
In the same way, a woman with long hair doesn't mean more dirty than a woman with short hair.
According to your logic, all people who have long hair carry more dust/dirt/grime/germs than those with short hair? Or it depends on how a person cleans it? In case of a same person, when he/she has long hair, he should normally take more care of his/her hair's cleanliness - and this could result in either more or less cleaner - as I said - it depends on how a person cleans it at a particular timespan.
God's design is perfect and has reasons in it. That's what I want to say - don't say that a beard is dirty.
The question is primarily about gauging mindset, or to make a point so that they can reflect, promoting/suggesting monotheism would be secondary. I have had great conversations with Traditional/Sunni Muslims, of course them being logical was a pre-requesite.
Do you also feel Abraham asking his people to ask their biggest idol who smashed their other idols was mocking or negative?
Please understand that Abraham's question is not the same as your question, because your question is suggesting that God's design of a beard is dirty. Even Haroon has grab-able beard and I'm sure he's not "dirty" as your theory suggests.
No problem if you want to ask to make people reflect, but this idea of long beard = dirty is not natural to me. It sounds mocking to me because it's not happy with God's design.
Peace,
Zidane. -
Whether it is mocking or not depends alot on the manner in which you vocalise the sentence. If you sound all arrogant and self-righteous I would think you are mocking. If you are soft-spoken, I would think they are just sincerely asking it.
I read somewhere that a large percentage of our communication is from Body Language, facial features and tone.
Perhaps in Rajah's mind he imagined Wakas speaking in an arrogant tone?
So its just a misunderstanding sun
Thanks, Agreed. It depends a lot on that too.
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peace brother Zidane,
I said it is a fact a beard means more dust/dirt/grime/germs than no beard... you wrote
No, it is not fact to me. It depends on how each person cleans it. A man with a beard and cleans it well is, to me, more clean on his face than a shaved man who doesn't clean his face well - you can look at it that way too. And also more clean than a man who shaved and got cuts or infections on his face too.
You are not comparing like with like, by introducing more than one variable. If you conducted a scientific study using your above methodology, it would be criticised because it could reach no conclusion. In order to compare like with like, each must clean their face the same way/time/intensity... afterwards, we could then test which has the most dirt/dust/grime/germs etc (ddgg etc) and it would be the one with the beard.
According to your logic, all people who have long hair carry more dust/dirt/grime/germs than those with short hair? Or it depends on how a person cleans it? In case of a same person, when he/she has long hair, he should normally take more care of his/her hair's cleanliness - and this could result in either more or less cleaner - as I said - it depends on how a person cleans it at a particular timespan.
You suggest above that a long hair person would take more care of it, thus it is highly likely their level of cleaning would have to be higher to get the reduced level of ddgg etc. I have no problem with that but I am confident a long hair/beard person will still have more ddgg etc than a short hair/beard person, even after a more intense cleaning. It is simple maths, larger surface area for ddgg etc to be on.
God's design is perfect and has reasons in it. That's what I want to say - don't say that a beard is dirty.
Let's stick with what I actually said, as I did not use the term "dirty", and I also clarified the difference in what I said. Please do not try to build a strawman argument against me to discredit what I'm saying.
Please understand that Abraham's question is not the same as your question, because your question is suggesting that God's design of a beard is dirty. Even Haroon has grab-able beard and I'm sure he's not "dirty" as your theory suggests.
Again, let's stick with what I actually said, as I did not use the term "dirty", and I also clarified the difference in what I said. Please do not try to build a strawman argument against me to discredit what I'm saying.
Can I assume by your above statement, you do not find Abraham's question mocking or negative?Speaking of God's design, do you cut your toe nails? If so, please explain to us why you are not happy with God's design with regard to this.
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God's design is perfect and has reasons in it. That's what I want to say - don't say that a beard is dirty.
I don't understand where you say that. Where in the quran does it say something like that? If as you say, that god created these things as perfect, then surely you wouldn't have rampant homosexuality in some animal kingdoms, or conversely, you wouldn't look at animals and think they are imperfect in some way (i.e. killing each other for food), or as Wakas says, you wouldn't clip your toe-nails, etc?
In any case, a more perfect design would be to have us covered in either lots of hair or no hair. Why is that not the case? Because "God's design" is purely dependant on the person's location and ancestors. How many Africans do you know with a beard?
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Peace dear brother Wakas,
You are not comparing like with like, by introducing more than one variable. If you conducted a scientific study using your above methodology, it would be criticised because it could reach no conclusion. In order to compare like with like, each must clean their face the same way/time/intensity... afterwards, we could then test which has the most dirt/dust/grime/germs etc (ddgg etc) and it would be the one with the beard.
I understand. I introduced that because in reality, people naturally introduce that extra cleaning - both for hair or beard. The "cleanliness issue" depends a lot on how the person cleans himself/herself.
You suggest above that a long hair person would take more care of it, thus it is highly likely their level of cleaning would have to be higher to get the reduced level of ddgg etc. I have no problem with that but I am confident a long hair/beard person will still have more ddgg etc than a short hair/beard person, even after a more intense cleaning. It is simple maths, larger surface area for ddgg etc to be on.
I agree on this in the physical sense. I just want to say that, after well cleaning, it doesn't mean "dirty" in the "cleanliness issue" sense.
Because you're mentioning that long beard "contradicts the cleanliness issue", I felt that your question at the start of the topic implies that long beard men are "dirty" - that's why I wrote my posts. I also say that Haroon is not "dirty" by having long grab-able beard that would seem to "contradict the cleanliness issue" which I imply to mean "dirty".
Let's stick with what I actually said, as I did not use the term "dirty", and I also clarified the difference in what I said. Please do not try to build a strawman argument against me to discredit what I'm saying.
My apology dear brother, you didn't use the term dirty - that's true. By reading your starting post, when I see "contradicts the cleanliness issue", it implies to me like that, so I'm writing to show that it's not "dirty" - I also showed that either too long or too short(shave) is probably not best. And you and me agree on that short stubble is probably the best middle-way.
I write because I just want to show to all that long beard or long hair doesn't mean dirty - it depends on how a person cleans it. And it is more natural to have it than trying to get rid of it.
I really apologize to you if it seems like a strawman against you, I have no intention of that. Sorry dear brother.
Can I assume by your above statement, you do not find Abraham's question mocking or negative?
Sincerely speaking, it seems to be negative to me - thanks for the reminder - it probably depends a lot with the intention - possibly to make them reflect like you said. I also depends on tone of vioce like aalmakto said. My apology dear brother.
Speaking of God's design, do you cut your toe nails? If so, please explain to us why you are not happy with God's design with regard to this.
Please don't build a strawman argument against me too. I never meant/said don't cut hair or don't shave or don't cut nails. I never meant/said that doing so is implying that you're not happy with God's design.
For me, I meant/said "Not happy with God's design" for the idea that these natural things "contradict with the cleanliness" (and I'm not trying to defend any narrations by this... I want to be unbiased.).
I want to point out that shaving beard or cutting nails too short, may harm you more than keeping it at a moderate length because in God's design, there are objectives for all creation. And also, saying that if they're long then they're not clean is not true to me - it depends on how the person cleans it.
The middle way is best - and we already agreed upon that. I already wrote about this nail example, dear brother Wakas, OPF
As with all things, I am sure that God lets all hair grow for purposes and I thank God for it.
Cutting short is probably no problem, but shaving and all other anti-hair techniques would stop the hair from doing its duty to protect the skin, like help protect the pores and protect germs from coming directly to the skin - the germs, pollution, etc are trapped at the hair instead and hair keeps on coming out to replace/push out the old. Hair is also a natural dry lubricator for rubbing areas of the body, protects heat loss, and even UV rays. It is also a natural mark for differentiation of sex
As with all things, the middle way is best, like nails, if your nail is too long, it'll collect germs, if it's too deeply cut then it's hard to handle things and gets injured, infected easily.
I hope you understand what I want to say.
I really apologize if I seem to offend you in anyway. Full respect to both of you.
Peace,
Zidane. -
I don't understand where you say that. Where in the quran does it say something like that? If as you say, that god created these things as perfect, then surely you wouldn't have rampant homosexuality in some animal kingdoms, or conversely, you wouldn't look at animals and think they are imperfect in some way (i.e. killing each other for food), or as Wakas says, you wouldn't clip your toe-nails, etc?
In any case, a more perfect design would be to have us covered in either lots of hair or no hair. Why is that not the case? Because "God's design" is purely dependant on the person's location and ancestors. How many Africans do you know with a beard?
Dear dear brother OPF,
Yes, you don't understand what I'm trying to say, as I see from your following questions.
I am not to judge anyone or anything's behavior, and I don't understand everything - my knowledge is limited.
I'm saying that for everything God designed - there's a purpose
3191 Those who remember God while standing, and sitting, and on their sides, and they ponder in the creation of the heavens and the Earth "Our Lord you did not create this without purpose, be You glorified, spare us the retribution of the Fire!"
For me, no one is better than God in anything - look at GMOs that are designed to be "better" - it would cause corruption in the system. There is no "more perfect" than God's system. The design of all creatures work together perfectly in the whole system.
And yes, I agree to what you said, that many characteristics of us is probably also dependent on location and ancestors. There's a reason for each of that, so we thank God for it.
Peace,
Zidane. -
Who says the purpose of the beard is to protect the face? God wants to protect men's faces but not women's? And why only the lower part of the face?
I don't think that's the reason for beards at all. Men can grow a beard for cosmetic reasons, to be stylish, for warmth in the colder months, etc. For all the ways a man can wear it... side burns, goatee, moustache, beard... I think to be stylish would make better sense. That and maybe to hide an ugly face... rotfl. Ok, so that was bad... I apologize to all the men out there who think that joke is in poor taste.
peace,
dotty -
peace Zidane,
Dude, trust me, there is no need to apologise. Simply correcting/clarifying what you said about my position is fine.
A strawman is when the other person says/implies your position is something different to what it is, then comments/argues against the position they made-up for you.
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Dear dear brother OPF,
Yes, you don't understand what I'm trying to say, as I see from your following questions.
I am not to judge anyone or anything's behavior, and I don't understand everything - my knowledge is limited.
I'm saying that for everything God designed - there's a purpose
3191 Those who remember God while standing, and sitting, and on their sides, and they ponder in the creation of the heavens and the Earth "Our Lord you did not create this without purpose, be You glorified, spare us the retribution of the Fire!"
For me, no one is better than God in anything - look at GMOs that are designed to be "better" - it would cause corruption in the system. There is no "more perfect" than God's system. The design of all creatures work together perfectly in the whole system.
And yes, I agree to what you said, that many characteristics of us is probably also dependent on location and ancestors. There's a reason for each of that, so we thank God for it.
Peace,
Zidane.Peace brother Zidane,
By that logic, we should all eat everything raw. We shouldn't cook, because that's how God designed it. Nor should we wash the food we eat etc... Nor should we filter the water we drink. I know this sounds ridiculous, but we shouldn't also cut up the meat we eat and eat the whole cow as is. Isn't this how God 'designed' the animals?
Also, How do you know that Haroon's beard wasn't dirty? I am not saying it was, there is just no evidence that Haroon's beard was clean.
I agree with you on the GMOs.
I hope I am not misunderstanding your position.
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Dear dear brother OPF,
Yes, you don't understand what I'm trying to say, as I see from your following questions.
I am not to judge anyone or anything's behavior, and I don't understand everything - my knowledge is limited.
I'm saying that for everything God designed - there's a purpose
3191 Those who remember God while standing, and sitting, and on their sides, and they ponder in the creation of the heavens and the Earth "Our Lord you did not create this without purpose, be You glorified, spare us the retribution of the Fire!"
For me, no one is better than God in anything - look at GMOs that are designed to be "better" - it would cause corruption in the system. There is no "more perfect" than God's system. The design of all creatures work together perfectly in the whole system.
And yes, I agree to what you said, that many characteristics of us is probably also dependent on location and ancestors. There's a reason for each of that, so we thank God for it.
Peace,
Zidane.I'm afraid you are contradicting yourself, in a very indirect way. Take 3191 - does it tell you the actual purpose? It just tells us that we exist with a purpose. Where in the quran is it noted that the purpose of a beard is so and so, or even the purpose of hair is so and so? For instance, somewhere in the beginning of surah 55, it describes various things and lists their purposes - but these are far larger than a person's beard.
So where is the indirect contradiction? When you assigned a beard a purpose, that's where. God may have assigned the purpose, rather the beard grows out because it HAS a purpose (as opposed to a situation where the beard does NOT grow, because it has no purpose) - as you said
And yes, I agree to what you said, that many characteristics of us is probably also dependent on location and ancestors. There's a reason for each of that, so we thank God for it.
So to say the beard is this, or that, is really dependant on where you live and how you live. And the fact of the matter is that a beard is not needed to live (i.e. in a western country) in the way it is in other places, and in the same manner of clipping toenails, it should really be shaved off (just to keep the work/time spent cleaning it down). I'm sure there is a purpose for the beard in other places but let's face it, it's hardly useful in the context of this thread. As for identifying the sexes, you would think there are slightly more apparent things.
In any case, 'natural' is as subjective as it gets. If you wanted to be objective, then 'natural' is something that obeys the laws of physics, full stop. Otherwise you get all sorts of things that are "natural" and "unnatural" and going into that just ends up making ridiculous, artificial rules (ahem).
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Also, How do you know that Haroon's beard wasn't dirty? I am not saying it was, there is just no evidence that Haroon's beard was clean.
I think the expression used by haroon seize me not by my beard nor by my head is used metaphorically to say do not reproach me in a harsh and insulting way. It doesn't mean Haroon had a grabbable beard or beard at all.
He said O son of my mother! seize me not by my beard nor by my head; surely I was afraid lest you should say You have caused a division among the children of Israel and not waited for my word.
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Peace dear House MD.
By that logic, we should all eat everything raw. We shouldn't cook, because that's how God designed it. Nor should we wash the food we eat etc... Nor should we filter the water we drink. I know this sounds ridiculous, but we shouldn't also cut up the meat we eat and eat the whole cow as is. Isn't this how God 'designed' the animals?
Dear brother,
I never meant that dear brother. I meant that there are purposes for each creation. In the generalization you proposed, I would say that God also created germs and parasites too - and they have purposes too. And God didn't design your mouth to eat a whole cow too. Please look at it as a whole system working together.
I'm not going to defend anything here, I just want to say that there are purposes of all creation.
Also, How do you know that Haroon's beard wasn't dirty? I am not saying it was, there is just no evidence that Haroon's beard was clean.
I want to say that if you have long beard or long hair, it doesn't mean you're dirty - it depends on how you clean it.
Peace,
Zidane.
