another simple question to gauge traditional mindset...
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Whether it is mocking or not depends alot on the manner in which you vocalise the sentence. If you sound all arrogant and self-righteous I would think you are mocking. If you are soft-spoken, I would think they are just sincerely asking it.
I read somewhere that a large percentage of our communication is from Body Language, facial features and tone.
Perhaps in Rajah's mind he imagined Wakas speaking in an arrogant tone?
So its just a misunderstanding sun
Thanks, Agreed. It depends a lot on that too.
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peace brother Zidane,
I said it is a fact a beard means more dust/dirt/grime/germs than no beard... you wrote
No, it is not fact to me. It depends on how each person cleans it. A man with a beard and cleans it well is, to me, more clean on his face than a shaved man who doesn't clean his face well - you can look at it that way too. And also more clean than a man who shaved and got cuts or infections on his face too.
You are not comparing like with like, by introducing more than one variable. If you conducted a scientific study using your above methodology, it would be criticised because it could reach no conclusion. In order to compare like with like, each must clean their face the same way/time/intensity... afterwards, we could then test which has the most dirt/dust/grime/germs etc (ddgg etc) and it would be the one with the beard.
According to your logic, all people who have long hair carry more dust/dirt/grime/germs than those with short hair? Or it depends on how a person cleans it? In case of a same person, when he/she has long hair, he should normally take more care of his/her hair's cleanliness - and this could result in either more or less cleaner - as I said - it depends on how a person cleans it at a particular timespan.
You suggest above that a long hair person would take more care of it, thus it is highly likely their level of cleaning would have to be higher to get the reduced level of ddgg etc. I have no problem with that but I am confident a long hair/beard person will still have more ddgg etc than a short hair/beard person, even after a more intense cleaning. It is simple maths, larger surface area for ddgg etc to be on.
God's design is perfect and has reasons in it. That's what I want to say - don't say that a beard is dirty.
Let's stick with what I actually said, as I did not use the term "dirty", and I also clarified the difference in what I said. Please do not try to build a strawman argument against me to discredit what I'm saying.
Please understand that Abraham's question is not the same as your question, because your question is suggesting that God's design of a beard is dirty. Even Haroon has grab-able beard and I'm sure he's not "dirty" as your theory suggests.
Again, let's stick with what I actually said, as I did not use the term "dirty", and I also clarified the difference in what I said. Please do not try to build a strawman argument against me to discredit what I'm saying.
Can I assume by your above statement, you do not find Abraham's question mocking or negative?Speaking of God's design, do you cut your toe nails? If so, please explain to us why you are not happy with God's design with regard to this.
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God's design is perfect and has reasons in it. That's what I want to say - don't say that a beard is dirty.
I don't understand where you say that. Where in the quran does it say something like that? If as you say, that god created these things as perfect, then surely you wouldn't have rampant homosexuality in some animal kingdoms, or conversely, you wouldn't look at animals and think they are imperfect in some way (i.e. killing each other for food), or as Wakas says, you wouldn't clip your toe-nails, etc?
In any case, a more perfect design would be to have us covered in either lots of hair or no hair. Why is that not the case? Because "God's design" is purely dependant on the person's location and ancestors. How many Africans do you know with a beard?
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Peace dear brother Wakas,
You are not comparing like with like, by introducing more than one variable. If you conducted a scientific study using your above methodology, it would be criticised because it could reach no conclusion. In order to compare like with like, each must clean their face the same way/time/intensity... afterwards, we could then test which has the most dirt/dust/grime/germs etc (ddgg etc) and it would be the one with the beard.
I understand. I introduced that because in reality, people naturally introduce that extra cleaning - both for hair or beard. The "cleanliness issue" depends a lot on how the person cleans himself/herself.
You suggest above that a long hair person would take more care of it, thus it is highly likely their level of cleaning would have to be higher to get the reduced level of ddgg etc. I have no problem with that but I am confident a long hair/beard person will still have more ddgg etc than a short hair/beard person, even after a more intense cleaning. It is simple maths, larger surface area for ddgg etc to be on.
I agree on this in the physical sense. I just want to say that, after well cleaning, it doesn't mean "dirty" in the "cleanliness issue" sense.
Because you're mentioning that long beard "contradicts the cleanliness issue", I felt that your question at the start of the topic implies that long beard men are "dirty" - that's why I wrote my posts. I also say that Haroon is not "dirty" by having long grab-able beard that would seem to "contradict the cleanliness issue" which I imply to mean "dirty".
Let's stick with what I actually said, as I did not use the term "dirty", and I also clarified the difference in what I said. Please do not try to build a strawman argument against me to discredit what I'm saying.
My apology dear brother, you didn't use the term dirty - that's true. By reading your starting post, when I see "contradicts the cleanliness issue", it implies to me like that, so I'm writing to show that it's not "dirty" - I also showed that either too long or too short(shave) is probably not best. And you and me agree on that short stubble is probably the best middle-way.
I write because I just want to show to all that long beard or long hair doesn't mean dirty - it depends on how a person cleans it. And it is more natural to have it than trying to get rid of it.
I really apologize to you if it seems like a strawman against you, I have no intention of that. Sorry dear brother.
Can I assume by your above statement, you do not find Abraham's question mocking or negative?
Sincerely speaking, it seems to be negative to me - thanks for the reminder - it probably depends a lot with the intention - possibly to make them reflect like you said. I also depends on tone of vioce like aalmakto said. My apology dear brother.
Speaking of God's design, do you cut your toe nails? If so, please explain to us why you are not happy with God's design with regard to this.
Please don't build a strawman argument against me too. I never meant/said don't cut hair or don't shave or don't cut nails. I never meant/said that doing so is implying that you're not happy with God's design.
For me, I meant/said "Not happy with God's design" for the idea that these natural things "contradict with the cleanliness" (and I'm not trying to defend any narrations by this... I want to be unbiased.).
I want to point out that shaving beard or cutting nails too short, may harm you more than keeping it at a moderate length because in God's design, there are objectives for all creation. And also, saying that if they're long then they're not clean is not true to me - it depends on how the person cleans it.
The middle way is best - and we already agreed upon that. I already wrote about this nail example, dear brother Wakas, OPF
As with all things, I am sure that God lets all hair grow for purposes and I thank God for it.
Cutting short is probably no problem, but shaving and all other anti-hair techniques would stop the hair from doing its duty to protect the skin, like help protect the pores and protect germs from coming directly to the skin - the germs, pollution, etc are trapped at the hair instead and hair keeps on coming out to replace/push out the old. Hair is also a natural dry lubricator for rubbing areas of the body, protects heat loss, and even UV rays. It is also a natural mark for differentiation of sex
As with all things, the middle way is best, like nails, if your nail is too long, it'll collect germs, if it's too deeply cut then it's hard to handle things and gets injured, infected easily.
I hope you understand what I want to say.
I really apologize if I seem to offend you in anyway. Full respect to both of you.
Peace,
Zidane. -
I don't understand where you say that. Where in the quran does it say something like that? If as you say, that god created these things as perfect, then surely you wouldn't have rampant homosexuality in some animal kingdoms, or conversely, you wouldn't look at animals and think they are imperfect in some way (i.e. killing each other for food), or as Wakas says, you wouldn't clip your toe-nails, etc?
In any case, a more perfect design would be to have us covered in either lots of hair or no hair. Why is that not the case? Because "God's design" is purely dependant on the person's location and ancestors. How many Africans do you know with a beard?
Dear dear brother OPF,
Yes, you don't understand what I'm trying to say, as I see from your following questions.
I am not to judge anyone or anything's behavior, and I don't understand everything - my knowledge is limited.
I'm saying that for everything God designed - there's a purpose
3191 Those who remember God while standing, and sitting, and on their sides, and they ponder in the creation of the heavens and the Earth "Our Lord you did not create this without purpose, be You glorified, spare us the retribution of the Fire!"
For me, no one is better than God in anything - look at GMOs that are designed to be "better" - it would cause corruption in the system. There is no "more perfect" than God's system. The design of all creatures work together perfectly in the whole system.
And yes, I agree to what you said, that many characteristics of us is probably also dependent on location and ancestors. There's a reason for each of that, so we thank God for it.
Peace,
Zidane. -
Who says the purpose of the beard is to protect the face? God wants to protect men's faces but not women's? And why only the lower part of the face?
I don't think that's the reason for beards at all. Men can grow a beard for cosmetic reasons, to be stylish, for warmth in the colder months, etc. For all the ways a man can wear it... side burns, goatee, moustache, beard... I think to be stylish would make better sense. That and maybe to hide an ugly face... rotfl. Ok, so that was bad... I apologize to all the men out there who think that joke is in poor taste.
peace,
dotty -
peace Zidane,
Dude, trust me, there is no need to apologise. Simply correcting/clarifying what you said about my position is fine.
A strawman is when the other person says/implies your position is something different to what it is, then comments/argues against the position they made-up for you.
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Dear dear brother OPF,
Yes, you don't understand what I'm trying to say, as I see from your following questions.
I am not to judge anyone or anything's behavior, and I don't understand everything - my knowledge is limited.
I'm saying that for everything God designed - there's a purpose
3191 Those who remember God while standing, and sitting, and on their sides, and they ponder in the creation of the heavens and the Earth "Our Lord you did not create this without purpose, be You glorified, spare us the retribution of the Fire!"
For me, no one is better than God in anything - look at GMOs that are designed to be "better" - it would cause corruption in the system. There is no "more perfect" than God's system. The design of all creatures work together perfectly in the whole system.
And yes, I agree to what you said, that many characteristics of us is probably also dependent on location and ancestors. There's a reason for each of that, so we thank God for it.
Peace,
Zidane.Peace brother Zidane,
By that logic, we should all eat everything raw. We shouldn't cook, because that's how God designed it. Nor should we wash the food we eat etc... Nor should we filter the water we drink. I know this sounds ridiculous, but we shouldn't also cut up the meat we eat and eat the whole cow as is. Isn't this how God 'designed' the animals?
Also, How do you know that Haroon's beard wasn't dirty? I am not saying it was, there is just no evidence that Haroon's beard was clean.
I agree with you on the GMOs.
I hope I am not misunderstanding your position.
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Dear dear brother OPF,
Yes, you don't understand what I'm trying to say, as I see from your following questions.
I am not to judge anyone or anything's behavior, and I don't understand everything - my knowledge is limited.
I'm saying that for everything God designed - there's a purpose
3191 Those who remember God while standing, and sitting, and on their sides, and they ponder in the creation of the heavens and the Earth "Our Lord you did not create this without purpose, be You glorified, spare us the retribution of the Fire!"
For me, no one is better than God in anything - look at GMOs that are designed to be "better" - it would cause corruption in the system. There is no "more perfect" than God's system. The design of all creatures work together perfectly in the whole system.
And yes, I agree to what you said, that many characteristics of us is probably also dependent on location and ancestors. There's a reason for each of that, so we thank God for it.
Peace,
Zidane.I'm afraid you are contradicting yourself, in a very indirect way. Take 3191 - does it tell you the actual purpose? It just tells us that we exist with a purpose. Where in the quran is it noted that the purpose of a beard is so and so, or even the purpose of hair is so and so? For instance, somewhere in the beginning of surah 55, it describes various things and lists their purposes - but these are far larger than a person's beard.
So where is the indirect contradiction? When you assigned a beard a purpose, that's where. God may have assigned the purpose, rather the beard grows out because it HAS a purpose (as opposed to a situation where the beard does NOT grow, because it has no purpose) - as you said
And yes, I agree to what you said, that many characteristics of us is probably also dependent on location and ancestors. There's a reason for each of that, so we thank God for it.
So to say the beard is this, or that, is really dependant on where you live and how you live. And the fact of the matter is that a beard is not needed to live (i.e. in a western country) in the way it is in other places, and in the same manner of clipping toenails, it should really be shaved off (just to keep the work/time spent cleaning it down). I'm sure there is a purpose for the beard in other places but let's face it, it's hardly useful in the context of this thread. As for identifying the sexes, you would think there are slightly more apparent things.
In any case, 'natural' is as subjective as it gets. If you wanted to be objective, then 'natural' is something that obeys the laws of physics, full stop. Otherwise you get all sorts of things that are "natural" and "unnatural" and going into that just ends up making ridiculous, artificial rules (ahem).
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Also, How do you know that Haroon's beard wasn't dirty? I am not saying it was, there is just no evidence that Haroon's beard was clean.
I think the expression used by haroon seize me not by my beard nor by my head is used metaphorically to say do not reproach me in a harsh and insulting way. It doesn't mean Haroon had a grabbable beard or beard at all.
He said O son of my mother! seize me not by my beard nor by my head; surely I was afraid lest you should say You have caused a division among the children of Israel and not waited for my word.
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Peace dear House MD.
By that logic, we should all eat everything raw. We shouldn't cook, because that's how God designed it. Nor should we wash the food we eat etc... Nor should we filter the water we drink. I know this sounds ridiculous, but we shouldn't also cut up the meat we eat and eat the whole cow as is. Isn't this how God 'designed' the animals?
Dear brother,
I never meant that dear brother. I meant that there are purposes for each creation. In the generalization you proposed, I would say that God also created germs and parasites too - and they have purposes too. And God didn't design your mouth to eat a whole cow too. Please look at it as a whole system working together.
I'm not going to defend anything here, I just want to say that there are purposes of all creation.
Also, How do you know that Haroon's beard wasn't dirty? I am not saying it was, there is just no evidence that Haroon's beard was clean.
I want to say that if you have long beard or long hair, it doesn't mean you're dirty - it depends on how you clean it.
Peace,
Zidane. -
Peace dear brother OPF,
I'm afraid you are contradicting yourself, in a very indirect way. Take 3191 - does it tell you the actual purpose? It just tells us that we exist with a purpose. Where in the quran is it noted that the purpose of a beard is so and so, or even the purpose of hair is so and so? For instance, somewhere in the beginning of surah 55, it describes various things and lists their purposes - but these are far larger than a person's beard.
No it doesn't tell what purpose, it tells that there are purposes - so let's not discredit it if it comes up naturally. That's what I mean.
So where is the indirect contradiction? When you assigned a beard a purpose, that's where. God may have assigned the purpose, rather the beard grows out because it HAS a purpose (as opposed to a situation where the beard does NOT grow, because it has no purpose) - as you said
I suggested what benefits it can give. I am never to "assign" or know all the purposes God created things for. I don't know everything, but there are purposes.
Location, environment is clearly very much related. There's no contradiction here because many benefits are related to the environment of each geographic locations. For example, Arabs have much longer eyebrows than south-east Asians. Or Asian buffaloes have no thick hair but north American buffaloes do - this doesn't mean that there's no purpose of its long hair as you suggest simply because Asian buffaloes don't have long hair. There are and, as we agree, very much related to geographic location and environment.
So to say the beard is this, or that, is really dependant on where you live and how you live. And the fact of the matter is that a beard is not needed to live (i.e. in a western country) in the way it is in other places, and in the same manner of clipping toenails, it should really be shaved off (just to keep the work/time spent cleaning it down). I'm sure there is a purpose for the beard in other places but let's face it, it's hardly useful in the context of this thread. As for identifying the sexes, you would think there are slightly more apparent things.
Peace dear brother, I would not like to re-type things again. If you mis-understand my point, I can't always come here to re-type things.
In any case, 'natural' is as subjective as it gets. If you wanted to be objective, then 'natural' is something that obeys the laws of physics, full stop. Otherwise you get all sorts of things that are "natural" and "unnatural" and going into that just ends up making ridiculous, artificial rules (ahem).
No, never full stop - there's so many things God designed other than the laws called physics.
I didn't make rules - I just want to say that "if you have long beard or long hair, it doesn't mean you're dirty - it depends on how you clean it".
Peace,
Zidane. -
Peace,
Let's get straight to the point
I didn't make rules - I just want to say that "if you have long beard or long hair, it doesn't mean you're dirty - it depends on how you clean it".
That, doesn't help. Let's keep things constant and vary one thing at a time - Person X has a beard or does not have a beard. When Person X has a beard, they are more susceptible to getting dirty - just a pretty blunt and simple fact, just as having unclipped nails makes you more susceptible to dirt.
If Person X wants to keep the beard and keep clean, then it's a simple fact that they have to do more work than Person Y without a beard. So it really is up to the person themselves as to whether they want to keep a beard.
Going back to the original point, Sunni-ism and indeed islam in general emphasises cleanliness & purification from dirt, metaphorical or physical, above everything else. So making the beard a large point of faith is counter-intuitive because it goes against the ideal set out in the first place. You just pointed out that Person X could clean it - which is very well and true - but that runs, I believe, somewhat against .
Regardless, it's very subjective. There is a whole surah expounding that we should also be hard workers, even when "the coast is clear", i.e. no work is needed to be done - and hey, I'm sure that everyone here can testify to that. Would you rather spend a time period cleaning your beard or doing something genuinely productive?
Some people just don't want beards and some do - let's just leave it at that. To say either a beard or no beard is endorsed by God - bring your proof. Saying that it's there, so it must be useful to us(i.e. something definitely not mentioned in that verse you cited) is not a proof.
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Peace,
Let's get straight to the point
That, doesn't help. Let's keep things constant and vary one thing at a time - Person X has a beard or does not have a beard. When Person X has a beard, they are more susceptible to getting dirty - just a pretty blunt and simple fact, just as having unclipped nails makes you more susceptible to dirt.
If Person X wants to keep the beard and keep clean, then it's a simple fact that they have to do more work than Person Y without a beard. So it really is up to the person themselves as to whether they want to keep a beard.
Going back to the original point, Sunni-ism and indeed islam in general emphasises cleanliness & purification from dirt, metaphorical or physical, above everything else. So making the beard a large point of faith is counter-intuitive because it goes against the ideal set out in the first place. You just pointed out that Person X could clean it - which is very well and true - but that runs, I believe, somewhat against .
Regardless, it's very subjective. There is a whole surah expounding that we should also be hard workers, even when "the coast is clear", i.e. no work is needed to be done - and hey, I'm sure that everyone here can testify to that. Would you rather spend a time period cleaning your beard or doing something genuinely productive?
Some people just don't want beards and some do - let's just leave it at that. To say either a beard or no beard is endorsed by God - bring your proof. Saying that it's there, so it must be useful to us(i.e. something definitely not mentioned in that verse you cited) is not a proof.
Great logical explanation bro, and powerful arguments. I like when people put logic into the microscope so we can see it clearly. Having a beard is stupid unless you are a scientist or a author that doesn't have time to cut your beard. And even in that situation it is not recommended by the quran to be unhealthy by having a beard.
Peace David
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Peace dear brother Zidane,
My point was that God wants us to use the tools that he provided for us. In order to be clean you have to be dirty first. Similarly, maybe The God wanted us to shave, that's why our facial hair grows. The God doesn't want to hand things to us. Think about why the birth process is so painful. Life isn't supposed to be easy, similarly creating life is also not supposed to be easy.
I know you are only trying to being objective here.
I do agree that there's a reason for everything.
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Salam,
Respectfully.Just ask them this where in The Quran does it say Thou Shall Not Cut The Beard!
Because they always run towards hadith books, that alone means that such a person does not believe in The Power of God. God is The Most Powerful and He does NOT forget.Peace.
The reason is normally, "we have to live in the way of the prophet" (paraphrased from the Quran) which then brings a whole heap of questions; do we go the extreme like the founder of the Hanbali legal tradition and refuse to eat watermelon because there is no evidence that Muhammad ate watermelon?
For me one has to be pragmatic about these things; ask yourself; does it affect your religious duty as to whether or not you wear a beard; if we also believe and follow Jesus as well, what did he say about superficial things like beard growing? (aka earthly superficialities)
The hadith for me is a book of guides, not all of them are relevant, not all of them are reliable, but there is a degree of truth in them; its up to us to use our commonsense.
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Peace,
It is a matter of personal choice to have a beard or not.
Read the history how shaving got introduced since men appeared on earth.
http//people.howstuffworks.com/shaving.htm
This website is one of the best sites that describe everyday life in the light of science by experts in their fields.
Below is a passage from the article,
I don't know about you, but every morning I shave. It's a ritual -- shower, comb hair, shave, brush teeth, dress.
Showering is easy to understand. If you don't shower, you start to stink. Combing the hair is easy to understand too, because it would be a mess if you didn't comb it. If you don't brush your teeth, they rot and fall out. And dressing, obviously, is a necessity.
But why is it that, for a majority of men, all facial hair must be removed? There certainly isn't any health reason to shave it off. Why would we spend the time and money to go through this ritual each and every day?
And what about the technology of shaving? A number of companies in the United States and around the world make billions of dollars off of the simple act of shaving. These companies release new products constantly. Is all of this technology really necessary?
In this article, we will look at the social phenomenon of shaving. Then we'll learn about the evolution of shaving technology, starting with the straight razor and advancing through today's multi-bladed technology and electric razors.
Why Men Shave ?
For most of human history, men have had beards. And it is easy to understand why. Cave men had beards because they had no choice -- they lacked any kind of blade to shave their beards off.
Many religions also have prohibitions against shaving. For example, in Leviticus 1927, the Bible contains a specific prohibition against shaving your beard and the hair on the sides of your head. Some orthodox religions still practice this today.
Once metallurgy has been refined in any civilization, however, the technology of knives and scissors follows soon after. These cutting tools become more and more refined, and these refinements lead to the development of the razor -- the sharpest knife possible. With a very sharp knife, it is possible to begin shaving.
Even with these developments, however, men preferred beards. This may be because shaving with a straight razor is a somewhat dangerous activity better left to a professional. Unless you live in a city and are wealthy, being able to find and afford a shaving professional is difficult. And so, all the way up to the 20th century, beards were fashionable and most men wore them.
But during World War I in the United States, that all changed. And there were two reasons for that change
Gillette had released the "safety razor" in 1901, and it was steadily gaining popularity because of a massive ad campaign. The safety razor made it possible and inexpensive for men to shave daily.
Soldiers in the United States army were required to shave.
Certainly one reason for shaving during WWI is the fact that it was the first war to see chemical agents used on the battlefield. Soldiers had to use gas masks for the first time. In order for a gas mask to fit properly, you need to be clean-shaven. The army bought millions of Gillette razors and blades to make shaving possible.
When all of the soldiers returned from WWI with their clean-shaven faces, they were heroes. They appeared in their home towns, and they also appeared in newsreels in the new movie theaters that had sprung up everywhere. Combined with ad campaigns from companies like Gillette, it became the fashion to be clean shaven. Between 1920 and 1960, beards were definitely unfashionable. That taboo has eased somewhat since the 60s, but it is still far more common for men to shave than not. And as you can see, it is strictly a fashion statement, and largely the result of advertising by companies like Schick, Norelco and Gillette.
Or, to put it another way, No one makes any money if you have a beard...
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Peace,
Many ethnic groups have male populations that cannot grow facial hair. How would the Sunna of growing a beard be applied to them?
Salam Brother,
There is no compulsion in the religion.God will only question if you have option and still you don't do it.
Wasala,
A.Albruni
