This man died...and returned..Heaven and Hell are real
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Fadhli,
Labelling is the only way we can identify what we are talking about - it is a language for communication.
Physical exercise is a label to which belong categories of certain activities.
However if someone lableled my sitting and watching tv as exercise - I would get a knee jerk reaction, hence I would not like being lablled. Though very appropriately it could be seen as a physical exercise relative to sleeping and then sleeping could be seen as exercise relative to someone who is dead.
I was not scared of my activities that brought on the expereinces - the scary factor came when I actaully started seeing things that felt scary. I am very confident that if you ever had had the opportunity of getting to know me in person - how I live my life - you would know that I am not a negative person.
I am at this point in time reminded of the proverb where the sage points to the moon and says look at that and the idiot looks at the finger instead of the moon and does not see the beauty or magnitude to which the sage is actually pointing to. I have been already to the reasong that you are with but you have not been where I have managed to climb - yet you argue with me as if you know. The best you could say is that you remain open to the possiblity of what I am talking about.
I see your pursuits as falling in to the realm of the occult and new ageism. Please look them up to find out what they commonly allude to instead of firing blanks at me that are not inspired by knowledge.
New ageism and the occult are just the means - the vehicle that satan is using to draw up his supporters and take them away from the straight path.
We are certaily on different paths.
I am going to exit engaging in this forum - because I have said all I have to say but I do feel that my truth is being ignored.
This forum is cultured with egotism in favour of worshippping one's own desires or intellect - instead of submitting to God's will and design/system that we are supposed to be following.
Just at the point when I started engaging in discussion with you orignially - I saw a clear dream where I was busy writing away replying - but somone told me directly to read the Quran instead throughout the night. I don't know about the night part - but I do see the logic with spending my time with the Quran instead. And then I can simply pratice on the job so to speak as I live my life with those around me.
May God humble your heart enough so that you may know right from wrong before you are wronged.
P.S - I just figured earlier that when in the Quran it say O cloaked one read and meditate on the Quran throughout the night - it means that the prophet being cloaked - he is protected from other entities - that is the proper meaning of being cloaked. The verse was talking to the prophet to do the meditations - because he was protected from teh evil ones descending on him. Aswell when we are asked to recite the Quran we are requested to seek God's protection first and lets not forget how your behaviour to me has appeared to deteriorate since trying to OOBE.
I thank everyone for strengthing of my convictions by the truths presented in the Quran - of which the blind may not see.
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Peace HD,
Since you're not gonna engage with this thread anymore i'll just make it simple. (edit...sorry its a long kind of simple P P >D O0)
I agree with you at some point about labelling. Maybe i should fix my term on previous term from labelling (in general) to society/group of people labeling (without the declaration of the label). It's not important.
I was not scared of my activities that brought on the expereinces - the scary factor came when I actaully started seeing things that felt scary. I am very confident that if you ever had had the opportunity of getting to know me in person - how I live my life - you would know that I am not a negative person.
I'm sure you are HD. I apologize if i insulted you for being negative. ( '( '( '( ( Same like me. I don't talk much on my real life. Let alone talks a lot about religion. And how i live my life is different from how i think. I'm a different person too compared in this forum.
I am at this point in time reminded of the proverb where the sage points to the moon and says look at that and the idiot looks at the finger instead of the moon and does not see the beauty or magnitude to which the sage is actually pointing to. I have been already to the reasong that you are with but you have not been where I have managed to climb - yet you argue with me as if you know. The best you could say is that you remain open to the possiblity of what I am talking about.
In our last long discussion I already said that i keep it in my heart. And i do sincerely keep it in my heart. And still remembers it.
New ageism and the occult are just the means - the vehicle that satan is using to draw up his supporters and take them away from the straight path.
Seems like you really don't like anything related to what you call New Ageism. And to make it suit with your belief, you relate it with satan. So with that in mind you can just stay away from it. I think it's no different with other situations such as, I don't like sorcery so i relate it with satan so i just stay away from it. It's just a matter of belief. One would reason an argument to make sure it suits its belief. Probably an approximation of truth but i think it's not the totality of the truth.
I'm not sure about satan though. it might be in a form of an independent creature, a dependent (on hosts like humans) creature, or a negative/rebellious/ego side of us. There's a lot of possibilities on either forms it is also possible that it is all of that forms. God knows best. I'd like to remain neutral on this satan definition. In other words not to conclude it into something (yet?). I just consider it as nature rather than an intelligent form for now. So rather than thinking what satan would do or look like, i rather focus my thinking to anything relating to God and His signs.
...in favour of worshippping one's own desires or intellect ....
I agree with this statement (only ;D). too much debating and quarrellings, calling names makes me feel distant with God because of focusing too much on this so called worldly "fun and games". And i hope you are not seriously labeling this forum as a bad thing. Because for me this forum, all the topics that is stored inside here is a gem to others who is seeking God's path. A lot of wisdoms and knowledges has been recorded here. Even if there might be some incorrect statements inside, there will always be someone who will come and re correct it.
I'd like to thank you for your replies and make this thread more interesting. Indeed our path is different. But our ending in this world is the same.
Peaces handshake
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In my personal experience it is a harmful practice - that makes it unnatural - I have nothing more to say.
The harmful ---> unnatural is a jump. Just wanted to know why, but alright.
If going by personal experience, man is usually destructive to the detriment of his own self/soul and working towards betterment is an up-hill struggle. Striving for something one is not, doesn't have or wants to experience doesn't mean it's natural or unnatural, its just what it is. Whether it's wrong or not then remains to be decided depending on which criterion we use but unnatural...that's different. The saying what comes naturally is a double edged sword, dangerous in some situations but okay in others.
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Fadhli when did I sign off this forum as a bad place ??? - to the contrary - I signed off giveing my thanks for all the insights in to the Quran I gained that helped strengthen my convictions.
I am really tired of people not listening and tuning in to what a person has said before they speak - it is so indicative of how the person themselves may also be detached from the truth of God and reality. I just feel I have to spend time correcting people and repeating myself - therefore wasting my time.
In my personal experience and overview of this forum I would say there is a strong and undeniable culture of egotism within it that predominates over humility. Thats why I haven't found many humble people joining in discussions here - because birds of one feather tend to flock together. As far as I have seen the real peopel have long flown away after having said their peice or having learnt all that they could and graduated from all teh material contained here.
2pac - life is not exactly black and white following the same rules of law everywhere. For example - there are different classess of plants - some are poisonous and some are good for you - I know there are plants that some people may be allergic to and others not - but I am not talking about that here - I 'm saying some are definitely poisonous to all of humanity.
Fadhli & Co - As far as I can see in this thread - you have not even understood God's system that is advocated for in the Quran.
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2pac - life is not exactly black and white following the same rules of law everywhere. For example - there are different classess of plants - some are poisonous and some are good for you - I know there are plants that some people may be allergic to and others not - but I am not talking about that here - I 'm saying some are definitely poisonous to all of humanity.
I agree with your comments but you can't always go by your personal experience alone as its subjective. You have to be critical and objective in your studies and listen all advice and choose the best from it. Also bearing in mind at keeping the Quran as the criteria in your studies and not tying down interpretations without looking at all possibilities.
You also stated this forum is filled with people worshipping their own egos instead of submitting to Gods will but you see intellectual debates is part of Gods deen. How else would people come to know what truth is without debating and thinking about it.
It's unfair to be hasty and quick to label this forum as ego worshippers because that takes away all the learning and goodness that has come out of this forum and im sure im not alone in saying this. But if you wish to leave this forum all the best in what you do.
PEACE
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2 pacs - again I have to engage in doing so much corrections.
How can you judge me whether I have not been objective or not - I did investigate the matter - I did dwleve in the matter with blind faith and the result and my conclusion upon deeper investigation became different - such that eveything themn made sense whereasas it did not before. the prophet when he brought onteh revelations would not have been able to clarify everything he was revealing or caliming to teb the word fo God - yet he still went with the conviction that it was all of the truth.
I have already indicated previously in this same thread - all of our faculties would ideally need to be engaed - meaning the intellectual aswell - when in equal balance or integrity with each other - then fine - but I the problem I am trying to highlight here is intellectual taking precedence - taking importance - if you read back on my posts on this thread - I 'm sure you will be abel to see how this is what I meant.
I never said about leaving this forum all together - I said about not engaiging (as in actively engaging in discussion) with this forum but rather spending my time with the Quran - that may mean looking up references within this forum or in the Quran. Though at this time I am feeling that my tiem spent with the Quran is actually better for me - because then my learning becomes more bespoke. But who's tosday that I don't use both.
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Peace HD
welcome yay
Fadhli when did I sign off this forum as a bad place Huh? - to the contrary - I signed off giveing my thanks for all the insights in to the Quran I gained that helped strengthen my convictions.
Okay maybe i understood incorrectly i just assume that it is bad based from this
This forum is cultured with egotism in favour of worshippping one's own desires or intellect - instead of submitting to God's will and design/system that we are supposed to be following.
I'm sorry if i jumped to conlusions telling that it is bad. So it is an "Ego cultured" and "intellects worshippers" forum then. P
I am really tired of people not listening and tuning in to what a person has said before they speak - it is so indicative of how the person themselves may also be detached from the truth of God and reality. I just feel I have to spend time correcting people and repeating myself - therefore wasting my time.
From this quote i can see that
- you have judged people (in general) not listening and tune to what a person ( that person is you?) said before they speak?
- you have judged based on your indications (your past experiences i assume?) that the person themselves (probably Fadhli & co?) may also be detached from the truth of God and reality (i assume you have understood the truth and reality then).
- Correcting people and repeteadly (persistent?) correcting their mistakes. I see an attempt to control people here, probably without realizing it. I know your intention is sincere. But somehow we (that includes me ) must respect other people's free-will and thoughts. It's like persistently forcing your son to be lawyer whereas he had made up his mind to be an actor. Imagine how he would felt being forced by his mother to do what he does not want. (just an analogy, i'm not targeting it to you )
You had already judged others but
How can you judge me whether I have not been objective or not - I did investigate the matter - I did dwleve in the matter with blind faith and the result and my conclusion upon deeper investigation became different - such that eveything themn made sense whereasas it did not before.
You felt uneasy when others judged you? I sense ignorance here. Well maybe i'm wrong. Just my obersvation. hmm
So i suggest instead of trying to correct others why not just reminding and advise style kinda post. I think that's more acceptable IMHO. I'm sure you are a good and positive person in real life. We are talking about your posts in this thread only.
In my personal experience and overview of this forum I would say there is a strong and undeniable culture of egotism within it that predominates over humility. Thats why I haven't found many humble people joining in discussions here - because birds of one feather tend to flock together. As far as I have seen the real peopel have long flown away after having said their peice or having learnt all that they could and graduated from all teh material contained here.
I'm trying to be as humble as i can here. But this word rings like we're not being humble here. I don't know what kind of humble you expect. '(
I have already indicated previously in this same thread - all of our faculties would ideally need to be engaed - meaning the intellectual aswell - when in equal balance or integrity with each other - then fine - but I the problem I am trying to highlight here is intellectual taking precedence
I don't know about this. But according to dictionary intellect means power of reasoning and understanding. So without a reason how can we understand? Without experience and understanding how can we believe? I think other than experiencing it and understanding the experience or the reason behind the experience can lead to guessing. And usually to streghten the guess one will tend to listen to other opinions or conjecture. Without intellect i think people will become sheep. Not critical in thinking. And become a follower instead of a leader to himself. And when a group people is guessing at the same answers, that might lead to false belief. I'm sure you didn't mean to say we must not use intellect. I think you should fix your definition on intellect. I think what you mean is scientific reasoning right?
So in your case you have experienced the paranormal side of the world. And you have concluded that it is bad or not normal or against our human nature to poke into that thing again. I respect that. I do. But I believe you just can't force others to follow or hear you because you have experienced it. Think about it. If i got scared because of what you had experienced. And i believed you. So i have believed in your conjecture already. What if you are wrong? There's somewhere in Quran that tells us not believe in other peoples conjectures. It's because they are just guessing. Only God knows the absolute truth. Not you, not me and not others in this "Ego cultured and intellect worshipping" forum ;D (sorry for being sarcastic, can't help it P P O0).
Peace no hard feelings handshake
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I think I have learnt my lesson here - do not argue with a fool lest you become reduced to one.
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By the way about two days ago I was on the bus and I opened the Quran to read it - and low and behold it opened on a reference that we had been discussing about and it showed clear proof of the whole debate as to what is taking place here - it was literally there. I thanked God for this and was meaning to give it here in due course - but defintiely, definteily I am not going to bother now as all my efforts would be in vain and I don't beleive that God wishes for effort to be made in vain.
I have tried to warn you - not to get you to follow soemthing of me - but to warn you of the dangers of straying from the straight path.
If I have understood correctly from the Quran - that the rejecters will have a more painful doom than those not warned.
Please be on your way and let me be on mine.
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Salaam,
You know I've had that sleep paralysis experience quite a few times, most of them frightening. On 3 separate occasions I met this personality or being. Their is a moment where you realize that you are not in your normal state or in your body anymore and it is at this point that I would attempt to explore the environment I was in. Usually when I entered this other world I would be in the same room i fell asleep in but certain things would be different. Colors were usually brighter and out of focus and small things would be out of place. For example a picture would be on the wall that shouldn't be their or a piece of furniture would be missing or a different item would be in its place. Sometimes inanimate things come to life and move, I have even seen paintings become animated.
Anyway the first time I met this personality I was house sitting so I wasn't at home. I awoke in this sleep paralysis state and realized that I wasn't in my body. I began to rise up to explore the room when I noticed a dark figure standing in the doorway. It looked like a shadow but was the figure of a large man. He was just standing there looking at me. I couldn't see his features nor his eyes. He appeared to be wearing a cloak of some sort but he was all black just like a shadow. He was standing about 3 and a half meters from my bed. When I saw him I stopped myself from getting up and suddenly this feeling of intense dread came over me. Something was telling me not to approach this figure. I laid back down in my body and forced myself awake. When I looked at the doorway the figure was gone. It was quite frightening. I have seen this same figure 3 times in total and each time in a different location. Have no idea what it was.
Anyone ever seen a large dark shadowy man during this experience?
Peace
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Amin74
Yes I have felt that shadowy figure what you are saying and the feeling of intense fear - to not to invite it to me. But I have not felt it since changing my practices which did not involve OOBEing.The problem is that people will put alot of exuses on it - like it is the shadowy part of your own self - when you are OOBEing that you are seeing, or that you should not fear it.
But what exactly that is or is not - who can actually verify it - other than the person who is experiencing it relying on their own instincts guiding them not go there.
We should respect our feelings and experiences much more than the interpretations of others.
Perhaps some people may feel compatibiltiy with those shadowy figures and so may not feel the fear.
May God protect you.
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but defintiely, definteily I am not going to bother now as all my efforts would be in vain and I don't beleive that God wishes for effort to be made in vain.
I have tried to warn you - not to get you to follow soemthing of me - but to warn you of the dangers of straying from the straight path.
If I have understood correctly from the Quran - that the rejecters will have a more painful doom than those not warned.
Please be on your way and let me be on mine.
Where are you getting this belief from that God doesn't wish our efforts to be made in vain. In that case I can sit on my backside and not help the poor as it would be in vain as there's always going to be poor people in the world. You see my point about using quran as a criteria. I'm not saying im perfect but we are all brought up with misconceptions and cultural baggage which is hard to get rid of and if we don't keep referring back to the quran when talking about God then we are more likely to be led astray.
No offence but judging from your posts your very defensive when challenged which is understandable but you need to be able to back up your beliefs with proof. Leaving a discussion prematurely isn't a good sign of it too.
PEACE
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Peace all
Wow 2pac you sounded mature. I should L2W (learn 2 write) from you. ;D
Dear Amin,
Wow you are lucky (at least to me ) to be one of the 1% of the world population to experience spontaneous OBE.
What you have experienced is common to what other OBEers experienced. Especially the first timers. Those thing that was telling you to escape is what i like call your survival instinct kicks in. It's like when you place your finger at a hot metal or saw a dog growling to you then it reflects to some kind of adrenaline rush. Which always tells you to pull off or run away. But you can change that instinct to let it burn or fight back the dog. With the same adrenaline rush. Another analogy is like a racer. Most of us see it as dangerous and stupid but for them it's something that is exciting. They crave for the adrenaline rush. I hope you get my point. It depends on what you have programmed to your mind previously, your will power.
So is there a danger to that shadowy figure?
According to Synergy from astral society says
What About Negative Entities?
Many people have described seeing entities that are negative while out of body. The most common vision is of dark looking faces, that resemble shadows. In all likelyhood, these 'faces' are not entities at all. They are most often seen at the moment of projection, and are nothing more than the result of your astral vision aligning.
There are however, some legitimate negative entities on the Astral Plane. They are found residing on the lower levels, or subplanes. If you travel there, they may take the opportunity to bother you, however they can do you no harm. The most they can do is be bothersome and cause you fear. Try not to fear them because they are just like an animal with instincts and they can sense it, and will only bother you more.
I recomend staying away from the lower levels of the astral plane alltogether. The beauty increases with each subplane as you travel higher.According to dragonheart from astral dynamics says
I'd like to point out that I was aware of the "shadow self" but I didn't intend to meet my shadow self. My shadow self sought me out and it took some time before I realized that's what was happening. I thought I was being 'stalked' by some negative entity in the Astral Plane.
THE SHADOW SELF
The Shadow self is a nebulous astral body, which is part of your personality and mind. It is the opposite of everything you are whether it is negative or positive, containing all of the parts of yourself that is hidden from society.
Most of the aspects are negative, but some are positive. Positive aspects would be the practice of Shamanism, paganism, healing, magick and religious beliefs, which we keep hidden to avoid ostracism or criticism. In some family circles showing compassion, empathy or any emotions would be considered a weakness.However, the shadow self is mainly composed of all of your suppressed negative emotions, desires and feelings which we experience. It holds outdated social ideas, gender based, sexual, racial stereotypes and prejudices. It feeds on discouragement, depression, fears and doubts.
(i suggest you just omit the use incenses, and all other external preparations (fasting, not eat meat, rituals, drugs etc) except some sleep control and affirmations and focus, let it be natural. I don't think others is necessary, just ask God for help. Total monotheism)
From my point of view, i think it might be our Ego, our higher selves, an entity that had lived with us since we were born. Some day we gonna have to confront it. I don't know how though, i believe its unique to a person. Some might say it is our guardian or angel just waiting for the time to meet us when we're ready. It's a personal experience anyway.
Read more on the links that i gave you. I'm sure you'll find it as interesting (if you are willing to reprogram your mind ).
Next time you got in that world try to ask for protection first. say like "I want protection and security" or "Allah protects me" or maybe "I feel no fear" (experimental) or maybe recite any Quranic verse that you think can increase your strength like ayatul kursi or al-falaq and an-nas (experimental). As long as you feel more confident and safe. If I were you i would like to wish that i want to meet Allah or God or the Creator. I've been longing to do that. It's like literally going to Hajj. I want to feel that unconditional love. It's a thought responsive world. Anything you think will literally come in effect. And to return back just think of your physical body. Nothing harmful can happen if you are confident and always ask for protection. What else should you fear other than God?
Some more links about astral projection
Hope to hear good news from you. ;D yay
Peace handshake
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Yeah just wanna add,
Remember our prophet Muhammad? the first time he saw Jibril? According to hadith he was scared to death. But later on what had happened to him? He became a God servant, closer to God. I dunno much about the details, you can refer it about that story.
Peace
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2pac
Feed a poor person with your hard-earned dollars (work in vain)
OR
give him the tools to cultivate the land for himself and then leave him be if he is too lazy not to bother working for himself? (not work in vain)
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We are given permission to leave when we have done our duty - I have given enough verses from the Quran backed with my own expereinces. All of this is the truth.
I can't help you anymore if you feel that is not enough because I feel that you are not open to the truth but are just wasting my time.
I feel able to leave the discussion now because
Say "O you who reject the truth,"
"I do not worship what you worship,"
"Nor do you worship what I worship,"
"Nor will I worship what you worship,"
"Nor will you worship what I worship,"
"To you is your path, and to me is mine." -
We are given permission to leave when we have done our duty - I have given enough verses from the Quran backed with my own expereinces. All of this is the truth.
You haven't spoke THE truth but maybe A truth as THE truth rests with only God. You have misinterpreted verses in the Quran and used your experiences to follow ahead while not using Quran as a main criterion. Thats why we are on this forum to discuss the interpretations of the Quran so we can come to a better understanding but if we all had your attitude of feeling as though we have done enough and wasting our time we wouldn't progress anywhere.
I can't help you anymore if you feel that is not enough because I feel that you are not open to the truth but are just wasting my time.
I feel able to leave the discussion now because
Say "O you who reject the truth,"
"I do not worship what you worship,"
"Nor do you worship what I worship,"
"Nor will I worship what you worship,"
"Nor will you worship what I worship,"
"To you is your path, and to me is mine."Again you are running away from your claims and misinterpreting the verses of the Quran without looking at all verses and holding onto your beliefs/ideas. Being self critical is very hard as a human and you should be open minded and reasonable when you come across a difference of opinion and learn to engage in a rational debate and not give up so easily.
PEACE
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Salaam Fadhli,
That is great information, thanks for that. I'll check out those links asap. The picture you posted doesn't look like him. He was large and masculine but completely black like a living 3 dimensional shadow. Very scary. You know the last time I saw him I watched in amazement as he did these incredible things. It was surreal and very fast. He basically seemed to appear in multiple locations at once, as if their were more then one of him. Then all his images recombined back into a single entity about 3 meters from where he was originally standing. He then just leaped very high into the air and disappeared. It was crazy! The whole time I was frozen and couldn't move. I haven't experienced him since. In fact it has been a few years since I had an OBE. They kind of scare me so i don't really make an effort to try and go there.
There was another time that i was actually attacked by an entity, but this one looked like a large reptilian humanoid. That was the scariest experience of all. I don't know how he could attack me but he grabbed both my arms and started pushing me around. I was so scared and tried to break free but he felt incredibly strong. I then tried very hard to wake myself up and was finally able to. When I awoke he was obviously not there. It was an incredible experience as it felt so real. This entity was very frightening. His skin was scaled like a lizard and he had long claw like fingernails on his hands. It was hard to get a good look at his face because he came from behind when he grabbed my arms. He manhandled me like a rag doll! Thank God I have never seen that again.
peace
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2Pacs - you are right it is just my truth. But that is all I can do right now - I have to live by my convictions just as you must live by yours.
I think certainly debating can be good when it gets one to iron out one's insufficiencies - but there be a point where it should not go on pointlessly - and I feel that I have reached that point here. I do have more to give but as I don't feel like I am being heard and end up having to repeat myself and correct people so much then I see it as a fruitless task. And since I am aslo unable to accept what others are saying - so then what be the point of continuing in that way??
I see on the following thread (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=12200.0) after 21 pages or so that there was no real progression in the debate in terms of sides being convinced of each other's arguments. There is a Zainab on the thread who many at the end were commending for putting up an argument but in fact now I see she has totally left the forum and after alll that hard work did not manage to win over the opposition.
May I not have the rights to execise my intelligence as to how I spend my time what I feel is wisely or otherwise??
And in fact throughout this whole forum I see there still no concensus in the matter of salat. I was only able to arrive at my own conclusions by reading and investigating the Quran for myself. It is clear how that actually fits with many people on this thread - it will be seen as wrongly misintepreted.
I personlly think that the best thing anyone can do is read and try to understand the Quran for themselves and live by it instead of endlessly debating on it with people till kingdom come. I don;t beleive that people shoudl have to come to a concensus for the sake of being agreed. But rather they should stand for their own truths whatever be in line with their conscience - I really feel that God will then guide the person if they be sincere.
And if that means for some people debating with everyone - and beleiveing in OOBE - so be it.
So there you go - now I accpt for you to go your way - permission granted - but in teh same respect let me also reserve my rights not to engage with this anymore. sunBest wishes for God's guidance on us all.