doubting Quran
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Peace CD,
ALL religions are man made - NOT from God.
Exactly. All religions (millat) are manmade and without humans there would be no such thing as a religion. This is why there is no such thing as the religion of God and even monotheism is described in the great reading as the religion of Abaraham (millat Ibrahim). On the other hand, peacemaking (islam) is a universal obligation. It is our only true obligation to the god.
Peace,
Ayman
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Are you an athiest or a deist, cosmic?
I do believe in God - but not any religion.
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Do you believe the Quran came from God CD?
I used to.
I don't anymore.
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You don't think God has provided any guidance to his creatures?
I don't know - is the most honest answer I can give you.
I certainly don't believe he provided guidance in the form of books or prophets.
But I am open to the idea that he provided guidance in our inner being/conscience.
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cosmic ~ salam. in your youtube clip, you introduce the text description of the clip by giving praise and recognition to God, and call Him by Quranic attributes.
i did try doing as you do not, believing in God yet not the Quran. but i found myself calling Him by the Quranic asma al-husna in prayer, and agreeing with them, that yes, they did describe the Being we call God or Allah. actually, the asma al-husna were what first convinced me to look into Islam and the Quran.
it's good to have a relationship with God- i believe He has created us to worship Him, to be thankful, and to invite Him, the Living, into the details of our lives. that is how i understand deen.
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I don't know - is the most honest answer I can give you.
I certainly don't believe he provided guidance in the form of books or prophets.
But I am open to the idea that he provided guidance in our inner being/conscience.
That's what I think the prophet's are, people who's inner being and conscience/consciousness is guided by God, by the spirit, the Ruh Allah. I think a lot of religious believers make the mistake of seeing them as machines, with one purpose only, as if God was only using human beings as prophets because he couldn't find a tape recorder. Whereas in reality they're as fallible as the rest of us. But still with an important role to play. After all, without the prophet's, hardly anyone would have heard of God, as a singular entity, so it can hardly all have been an accident that now half the world is Christian or Muslim.
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cosmic ~ salam. in your youtube clip, you introduce the text description of the clip by giving praise and recognition to God, and call Him by Quranic attributes.
i did try doing as you do not, believing in God yet not the Quran. but i found myself calling Him by the Quranic asma al-husna in prayer, and agreeing with them, that yes, they did describe the Being we call God or Allah. actually, the asma al-husna were what first convinced me to look into Islam and the Quran.
it's good to have a relationship with God- i believe He has created us to worship Him, to be thankful, and to invite Him, the Living, into the details of our lives. that is how i understand deen.
Good for you - I'm sure your faith is very sincere.
My faith is also very sincere and I have tried for a long time to believe the Qur'an is the word of God.
But I simply can't.
For example Hell in the Qur'an is described in such a way that I find it impossible to see as some sort of allegory or metaphor. Did you see this video I made here
http//uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd1P8SPcXPY
)
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That's what I think the prophet's are, people who's inner being and conscience/consciousness is guided by God, by the spirit, the Ruh Allah. I think a lot of religious believers make the mistake of seeing them as machines, with one purpose only, as if God was only using human beings as prophets because he couldn't find a tape recorder. Whereas in reality they're as fallible as the rest of us. But still with an important role to play. After all, without the prophet's, hardly anyone would have heard of God, as a singular entity, so it can hardly all have been an accident that now half the world is Christian or Muslim.
I don't think he sent prophets to guide us.
What I am saying I am open to (I mean it is something that could be true - but not sure about) is the possibility that God has given each and everyone of us an inner light, an inner nature or conscience (or Fitrah) that is inclined towards good/morality etc...
But I don't believe in Prophets or Holy books.
I believe we are all charged with working things out for ourselves.
Nor do I think there are moral absolutes of what is 'right' or 'wrong' to everything - it depends on one's circumstances and perception, ability, and many other things.
But I say AGAIN - I reject completely the idea that God sent prophets or holy books.
These are all man-made and stem from man's (misguided but well-meant) desire to "Share" the truth he has found with others.
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sorry - double post
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I don't think he sent prophets to guide us.
What I am saying I am open to (I mean it is something that could be true - but not sure about) is the possibility that God has given each and everyone of us an inner light, an inner nature or conscience (or Fitrah) that is inclined towards good/morality etc...
But I don't believe in Prophets or Holy books.
I believe we are all charged with working things out for ourselves.
Nor do I think there are moral absolutes of what is 'right' or 'wrong' to everything - it depends on one's circumstances and perception, ability, and many other things.
But I say AGAIN - I reject completely the idea that God sent prophets or holy books.
These are all man-made and stem from man's (misguided but well-meant) desire to "Share" the truth he has found with others.
Yet sharing the truth is very successful - after all, we're typing these messages on computers, not stone tablets.
Why not for religious guidance?
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I don't think he sent prophets to guide us.
What I am saying I am open to (I mean it is something that could be true - but not sure about) is the possibility that God has given each and everyone of us an inner light, an inner nature or conscience (or Fitrah) that is inclined towards good/morality etc...
But I don't believe in Prophets or Holy books.
I believe we are all charged with working things out for ourselves.
that actually sounds very Quaker. they also downplay the absolute importance of scripture, and talk about an "inner light" of God within all people, and focus on person truth-seeking.
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I don't think he sent prophets to guide us.
What I am saying I am open to (I mean it is something that could be true - but not sure about) is the possibility that God has given each and everyone of us an inner light, an inner nature or conscience (or Fitrah) that is inclined towards good/morality etc...
But I don't believe in Prophets or Holy books.
I believe we are all charged with working things out for ourselves.
Nor do I think there are moral absolutes of what is 'right' or 'wrong' to everything - it depends on one's circumstances and perception, ability, and many other things.
But I say AGAIN - I reject completely the idea that God sent prophets or holy books.
These are all man-made and stem from man's (misguided but well-meant) desire to "Share" the truth he has found with others.
The trouble with our inner light is that it only shines so long as we're spiritually clean. When a person keeps on committing sins, lying, cheating, hurting and harming other people, it gets covered up, to the point that we become convinced that our 'conscience' is telling us that the bad things we do are in fact good. So when a thief first steals, they might be going against their conscience, and they might feel bad about it. But the 20th time, or 100th time they steal, it will not be in spite of, but because of their instincts - it will really feel right to them. At no stage will they realise that their conscience has been entirely buried by their greed.
Our conscience only works when our Nafs, the desires that constitute our 'Self', are subordinated to our Ruh, the will of God inside us. But the fact is that we all sin, and we are all children of sinners, going back all the way to Adam. No human being is without sin, so it is impossible for us to really be certain of our consciences without some external guidance. So we have religion, which is like a light house, providing us with hope and direction amidst the stormy seas of life in this world.
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Yet sharing the truth is very successful - after all, we're typing these messages on computers, not stone tablets.
Why not for religious guidance?
The problem is that one person's experience of the truth doesn't travel well to others - it becomes soulless dogma before too long.
I think we must experience and struggle to work it out for ourselves and for our lives - and let others find their own way.
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that actually sounds very Quaker. they also downplay the absolute importance of scripture, and talk about an "inner light" of God within all people, and focus on person truth-seeking.
Quakers are cool ) (but I don't want to join any religion/group/band/sect/organisation/ etc...)
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The trouble with our inner light is that it only shines so long as we're spiritually clean. When a person keeps on committing sins, lying, cheating, hurting and harming other people, it gets covered up, to the point that we become convinced that our 'conscience' is telling us that the bad things we do are in fact good. So when a thief first steals, they might be going against their conscience, and they might feel bad about it. But the 20th time, or 100th time they steal, it will not be in spite of, but because of their instincts - it will really feel right to them. At no stage will they realise that their conscience has been entirely buried by their greed.
Our conscience only works when our Nafs, the desires that constitute our 'Self', are subordinated to our Ruh, the will of God inside us. But the fact is that we all sin, and we are all children of sinners, going back all the way to Adam. No human being is without sin, so it is impossible for us to really be certain of our consciences without some external guidance. So we have religion, which is like a light house, providing us with hope and direction amidst the stormy seas of life in this world.
Maybe life has special lessons for those who do bad things too.
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Mahmud H, religion isn't the only source of external guidance, in fact most of the time it's not a very good source at all. The best teacher is experience. Your own experience and the experience of others. You see someone die at 55 because they smoked and you don't do it yourself. You lie and decieve and when you are left without any friends you decide you won't do it again. That's how it works. A book telling you what to do will never have the same impact as real-life experience, and the only way of knowing if a book is right is setting it against real-life experience to see if it works.
peace -
oh and also, books are valuable because they help you learn, it's just that "religion" is not the only, or even the most reliable, source of wisdom out there. we can learn from anywhere and anyone, and usually the best wisdom comes from those sources that are not under the banner of religion, IMO.
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Certainly, experience is good, but only if you respond to it objectively and only if you get it in time to use it. For example, you can't see someone smoke for 55 years until you're 55 years old. Otherwise, you're not responding to experience, are you? If you give up smoking because your biology teacher says it causes cancer, then that is no different to religious guidance, it is? It's behaving in a certain manner as a matter of hearsay.
Then there is the other problem, how do you tell the difference between good and bad purely on the basis of experience? It's not to difficult in the case of smoking, you can just say smoking kills you, so it's bad. But what about more fundamental human drives. What about hurting other people, lying and cheating? Experience doesn't necessarily help you there. Science doesn't help you. Sometimes people who lie and cheat get their comeuppance, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose. How do you tell right and wrong from science and unguided experience? There are only two ways, as cosmicdancer points out, our consciences, and the other way is religion, as the prophets had very big souls, and could see a lot of things.