Quran inheritance mistake
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Peace Onur,
Depends on the case; parents share with siblings anyway except when there is a spouse then siblings get nothing and parents get more which is an advantage to parents.
2180 It is prescribed for you, when death approaches any of you, if he leaves wealth, that he make a bequest to parents and next of kin, according to reasonable manners. (This is) a duty upon Al-Muttaqoon (the pious).
1723 And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them but address them in terms of honour.
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Salaam Samia -- all cases with daughter; husband or wife/wives; mother; father and combinations thereof...
case daughter; husband
1 - 1/4 (husband) = 1/2x (daughter)
2 - 1/2 = x
3/2 = x
daughter = 1/2 (3/2) = 3/4
husband = 1/4Salaam Nun
What was the need for all these algebraic operations just to arrive at the conclusion that the daughter will get 3/4 (not the half, definitely) of what her mother left? The husband gets 1/4, automatically the daughter gets 3/4..no need for all these operations. The conclusion is the same and it IS NOt half what he (in this case she) left.
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Salaam Nun
What was the need for all these algebraic operations just to arrive at the conclusion that the daughter will get 3/4 (not the half, definitely) of what her mother left? The husband gets 1/4, automatically the daughter gets 3/4..no need for all these operations. The conclusion is the same and it IS NOt half what he (in this case she) left.
Salaam Samia,
Case 3 daughters, husband
1 ? ? husband = 2/3 daughters
? = 2/3Does not equate, and my belief it?s not what Qur?an says nor are words used without reason.
2/3 M Taraka (what he left) is not fixed and denotes variable dependent on inheritors.
1/4 Mimm Tarakna (from what they left) ? in math, from denotes subtraction/take/subset.412 ?so if (there) was/is for them a child, so for you (P) the ? from what they (F) left from after a bequest/will they (F) bequeath/direct with it or a debt?
People read 2/3 what he left and assume it means take 2/3 from the total inheritance when there is no from thus end up with all sorts of < > 1 problems/contradictions.
Case 3 daughters, husband
x = what he left (ma taraka) variable to be calculated for this case
2/3x = what he left daughters
1 ? 2/3x = what he left others
1 ? 2/3x = 1/4
x = 9/82/3 M Taraka (what he left) to daughters is not 2/3 (in this case) rather 2/3 * 9/8 = ?
The language of Qur?an has to be followed precisely and mathematics has to equate.
Peace Nun de Plume,
But it still seems to me a contradiction that (in your interpretation) wife does not share with siblings whereas parents share with the siblings given that Quran places the parents above the wife in the inheritance hierarchy.Peace Onur,
Which case? There is no contradiction since these are all separate events?
- Parents share with siblings
- Parents share with wife ? parents get more (advantage parents)
- Wife does not share with siblings ? no parents (they are dead)
How can non-existent parents ever be at a disadvantage?
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Peace Nun,
I am actually not making an argument about any disadvantage. My argument is about inheritance hierarchy. Let me illustrate.
If we accept your definition of kalalatan in 412 and 4176 and look at the following cases-
1 wife, 1 brother,1 sister
Wife gets all. -
Mother, 1 brother, 1 sister
Mother and siblings share.
Accordingly, wife>mother when cases involve siblings. By not giving siblings a share when there is a wife but giving them a share when there are parents, wife is priveleged over parents in the general hierarchy of inheritance,albeit indirectly. -
Children, mother, wife
Mother gets 1/6 and wife gets 1/8
Accordingly, mother>wife when cases involve children. This time, mother is privileged over the wife.
This is not about disadvatange but the consistency in the logic of hierarchy
On the from what/what distinction in some cases where each share is given in the "from what" form we still have to do algebraic/relativistic method. This shows that this distinction is not consistent and not very helpful.
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Salaam Samia,
Case 3 daughters, husband
1 ? ? husband = 2/3 daughters
? = 2/3Does not equate, and my belief it?s not what Qur?an says nor are words used without reason.
2/3 M Taraka (what he left) is not fixed and denotes variable dependent on inheritors.
1/4 Mimm Tarakna (from what they left) ? in math, from denotes subtraction/take/subset.412 ?so if (there) was/is for them a child, so for you (P) the ? from what they (F) left from after a bequest/will they (F) bequeath/direct with it or a debt?
People read 2/3 what he left and assume it means take 2/3 from the total inheritance when there is no from thus end up with all sorts of < > 1 problems/contradictions.
Case 3 daughters, husband
x = what he left (ma taraka) variable to be calculated for this case
2/3x = what he left daughters
1 ? 2/3x = what he left others
1 ? 2/3x = 1/4
x = 9/82/3 M Taraka (what he left) to daughters is not 2/3 (in this case) rather 2/3 * 9/8 = ?
The language of Qur?an has to be followed precisely and mathematics has to equate.
Salaam Nun
I believe that you do not know where the difference between "maa tarak" and "mimmaa tarak" resides. Try to remove the "al" from "nisf" and see if you can still say "mimmaa taraka". That's all, no difference in the meaning.
Your other problem that leads you to wrestle with the calculations is that you still believe hat part of this verse concern daughters and sons and then part of it concerns daughters alone. You yourself said
Case daughter (sole inheritor) gets the whole -- no one else left to divide with.
This is common sense which even all the schools according to Abu-Haneefa, Malik, Shafii, Ibn Hanbal agree and give her entire inheritance.
But avoided my question when I asked you the use of the part of the verse where it says and if she was one she will have the half of what he left. However you wrestle with "ma" or "mimma" you cannot make "gets the half of what he left" equals "gets the whole".
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Salaam Nun
I believe that you do not know where the difference between "maa tarak" and "mimmaa tarak" resides. Try to remove the "al" from "nisf" and see if you can still say "mimmaa taraka". That's all, no difference in the meaning.
Your other problem that leads you to wrestle with the calculations is that you still believe hat part of this verse concern daughters and sons and then part of it concerns daughters alone. You yourself said
But avoided my question when I asked you the use of the part of the verse where it says and if she was one she will have the half of what he left. However you wrestle with "ma" or "mimma" you cannot make "gets the half of what he left" equals "gets the whole".
Salaam Samia,
These are supposed contradictions; take a look try and resolve?
http//www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/i001.html
We are back to old replies?
411 ?so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) 2/3 what he left, and if she was one...
2/3 or 1/2 are only applicable IF only daughters else ?to the male equal fortune the two females? is a contradiction.
Case daughter; son
? daughter + 1 son = 1 ?Correct distribution should be 1/3 daughter + 2/3 son = 1
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Peace Nun,
I am actually not making an argument about any disadvantage. My argument is about inheritance hierarchy. Let me illustrate.
If we accept your definition of kalalatan in 412 and 4176 and look at the following cases- 1 wife, 1 brother,1 sister
Wife gets all. - Mother, 1 brother, 1 sister
Mother and siblings share.
Accordingly, wife>mother when cases involve siblings. By not giving siblings a share when there is a wife but giving them a share when there are parents, wife is priveleged over parents in the general hierarchy of inheritance,albeit indirectly.
No, the wife is never privileged over parents; by not giving siblings a share when there is a wife means the wife is privileged over siblings. There is never a case involving a parent, wife, and siblings where that is true.
This is not about disadvatange but the consistency in the logic of hierarchy
Nothing consistent or logical about including dead parents and judging a non-exist case.
On the from what/what distinction in some cases where each share is given in the "from what" form we still have to do algebraic/relativistic method. This shows that this distinction is not consistent and not very helpful.
It takes only a single ma (what) unknown variable to render the whole equation algebraic.
Hope transition logic from what to what is apparent?
Case 2 daughters; wife; father; mother
1 ? (1/6 + 1/6 + 1/ = 2/3 what he left daughters
x = what
1 ? 2/3x = (1/6 + 1/6 + 1/x i.e. what he left parents/wife
1 ? 2/3x = 11/24x
24/27 = xDaughters get 2/3 * 24/27 = 16/27 or 8/27 each
Wife gets 1/8 * 24/27 = 1/9
Father gets 1/6 * 24/27 = 4/27
Mother gets 1/6 * 24/27 = 4/27Even if it?s not apparent we are going back in circles to old posts and I?m done with this topic.
Peace be up you
- 1 wife, 1 brother,1 sister
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2/3 or 1/2 are only applicable IF only daughters else ?to the male equal fortune the two females? is a contradiction.
Salaam Nun
I thought you said when only daughter/s they take the whole!!
Case daughter (sole inheritor) gets the whole -- no one else left to divide with.
This is common sense
Case daughter; son
? daughter + 1 son = 1 ?Correct distribution should be 1/3 daughter + 2/3 son = 1
Also, in case one daughter one son, you say (1/3 daughter and 2/3 son). But the verse says (to the male the equal of the share of the two females) not "twice the female, and we have here only one female. Why are you giving him "twice one female"?
Also, where did you get the meaning of "if she was one" as synonymous to "if she was an only child"? -
Hello Nun,
Well, my point is that at times, when there is absolutely no what case we still do the algebraic method to divide without remainder. The point is that having a what case is not a necessary condition to do the algebraic method. This renders the distinction somewhat inconsistent.On the other point, you may be right. And also I realize that formal logic might be misleading. Mother would instinctually want to share with her kids- that is, the siblings of the deceased- whereas the wife/husband would not have the same motivation to share with the siblings. Quran might be attentive to that aspect of human nature.
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Salaam Samia,
I thought you said when only daughter/s they take the whole!!
I said
"Case daughter (sole inheritor) gets the whole -- no one else left to divide with."sole inheritor there are no brothers, no sisters and she is the only inheritor.
Also, in case one daughter one son, you say (1/3 daughter and 2/3 son). But the verse says (to the male the equal of the share of the two females) not "twice the female, and we have here only one female. Why are you giving him "twice one female"?
Equal the share of two females = twice the share of one female
two females = twice one female
It's the same thing.
case 2 daughters; 1 son
daughter = 1/4
daughter = 1/4
son = 1/22 females share (1/4 + 1/4) = 1/2 son's share
2 * 1/4 = 1/2It's not 2/3 for daughters (that's only applicable if there are no sons) and does not equate...
2/3 daughters + 2/3 son (to the male the equal of the share of the two females) = 1 + 1/3 which is too much!
Also, where did you get the meaning of "if she was one" as synonymous to "if she was an only child"?
If she was one definitely means ONE girl child and it's impossible for her to have brothers...
Case daughter; son
? daughter + 1 son = 1 + ? which again is too much!4176...God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with everything knowledgeable.
Peace
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Salaam Nun
Equal the share of two females = twice the share of one female
two females = twice one female
It's the same thing.
Of course it is not the same thing. The share of the two females indicates the case only when there are two females. Twice the female makes it a general principle . This is further emphasised by (if she was one female), which is definitely not (if she was the sole female). This is the error that previous scholars made and you are repeating. If I say I have one son this does not mean I do not have daughters, but shows that the subject is about "sons". The same thing in inheritance verses It revolves around the female, not the male; and the verse is about your children ONLY, no mention of parents or spouses in this verse.
sole inheritor there are no brothers, no sisters and she is the only inheritor.
My question is still standing. You have not answered it. The verse clearly says, in the same context of more than two girls, that "if she was one then she gets the half". But I see that you immediately consider this as "not the sole heir". The WHOLE verse did not mention AT ALL any parents nor spouse, but did mention, and IS ABOUT CHILDREN. So why do you decide that this is the case of "if there are parents and/or spouse but no brothers" (quite the contrary to the theme of the verse)? Are you adding information not given to us implicitly nor explixitly?
Another question that you have not answered before What if they were only two daughters? Why isn't this case not mentioned in the verse, but only if she was one AND if they were above two (if it was really about only girls who are not sole heirs)?
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Salaam Samia,
My question is still standing. You have not answered it. The verse clearly says, in the same context of more than two girls, that "if she was one then she gets the half". But I see that you immediately consider this as "not the sole heir". The WHOLE verse did not mention AT ALL any parents nor spouse, but did mention, and IS ABOUT CHILDREN. So why do you decide that this is the case of "if there are parents and/or spouse but no brothers" (quite the contrary to the theme of the verse)? Are you adding information not given to us implicitly nor explixitly?
The verse mentions parents...
411
God directs/commands/recommends you in your children, to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females, so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds (from) what he left, and if she was one, so for her the half and to his parents, to each one from them (B) the sixth from what he left,if for him was a child (son), so if (there) was not for him a child (son), and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the third, so if brothers were for him, so to his mother the sixth, from after a bequest/will he bequeaths with it or a debt; your (P) fathers and your (P) sons, you (P) do not know, which of them (is) closer to you (P) (in) benefit/usefulness, a religious duty/command from God, that God was/is knowledgeable, wise/judicious.Another question that you have not answered before What if they were only two daughters?
They get whole thing.
Why isn't this case not mentioned in the verse, but only if she was one AND if they were above two (if it was really about only girls who are not sole heirs)?
These are simple IF statements; I really don't understand your questions.
Please give case examples and I'll try answering the best I can how to distribute.
Then you tell us how it should be according to your reading.
Also, this is not about a single verse or part of a verse rather all verses in Quran or the whole aggregate view on inheritance ? one part cannot contradict another.
Peace
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Salaam Samia,
The verse mentions parents...
411You are right. My mistake.
if for him was a child (son), so if (there) was not for him a child (son),
What do you mean by (son) between two brackets? Does the verse say "male"? "walad" means child, irrespective of gender.
and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the third, so if brothers were for him, so to his mother the sixth, from after a bequest/will he bequeaths with it or a debt; your (P) fathers and your (P) sons,
Again, why "sons"? It says "abnaa'ukum" which means "descendants" irrespective of gender.
The verse mentions parents, then speaks only of the mother. Is she the sole parent?I really don't understand your questions
I mean this part
"so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds (from) what he left, and if she was one, so for her the half "
Which you believe is "daughters but no sons"
Case of one female
Case of more than two females.What if they were two?
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You are right. My mistake.
What do you mean by (son) between two brackets? Does the verse say "male"? "walad" means child, irrespective of gender.
Again, why "sons"? It says "abnaa'ukum" which means "descendants" irrespective of gender.
The verse mentions parents, then speaks only of the mother. Is she the sole parent?Was in a hurry and copy/pasted the literal translation; http//www.islam-muslims.org/quran/4/11/
Point was to show that parent was included in the verse.
I mean this part
"so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds (from) what he left, and if she was one, so for her the half "
Which you believe is "daughters but no sons"
Case of one female
Case of more than two females.What if they were two?
Are you suggesting that part does not include two females and only 3 or greater?
If 1 female she gets 1/2 and males regardless of how many get 1/2
If 3 or more females they get 2/3 and males regardless of number get 1/3
If 2 females they share with "the male" according to
"to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females"Is that your understanding and if so, what if there are 2 females and 2 or more males?
Also, please distribute below case according to your understanding of Quran...
case 3 daughters; 2 sons; mother; father; wife
I have it thus
sons = 13/84 each
daughters = 13/168 each
wife = 1/8
father = 1/6
mother = 1/6Peace
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Salaam Nun
Thank you very much for your patience and the high manners with you went through this with me. I really appreciate this.
The fact of the matter is that these are not my ideas, although I agree with them so much that I was afraid they would be "too good to be true". I tried with many people to see if they were error proof, but they were not as patient or knowledgeable as you.These are from Dr Sha7rour's book (Towards new fundamentals on Islamic Jurisprudence concerning women ة, where he discusses inheritance in over 100 pages.
Dr. Sha7rour believes that in this verse (11) we have the basic formula for inheritance distribution amongst the children
2 f and 1 male
1 female and 1 male
3+ females and XmalesThey are the unit formula, to which we can apply different multiples or variables
a) 2x X females and X males
b) X females and X males
c) 3 x X females and YX males, where the multiples are neither a nor b.Back to your question
I) 2f and 2 or 2+ mFirst case 2 f and 2m is calculated as 1f.and 1 m (half for the females and half for the males) boys and girls get equal shares.
Second case 2 females and more than two males case a) females get half and males get the other half boys and girls will not necesarily get equal shares.II) 3 daughters and 2 sons case c), because it is not a multiple of case a) nor b).
This is a summary of the basic equation.
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Salaam Samia,
Thank you very much for your patience and the high manners with you went through this with me. I really appreciate this.
The fact of the matter is that these are not my ideas, although I agree with them so much that I was afraid they would be "too good to be true". I tried with many people to see if they were error proof, but they were not as patient or knowledgeable as you.Thank you ? my pleasure. Good we continued the discussion; it?s a new and interesting perspective.
2 females and 1 male (to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females)
2f = m 12 ratio case # of females is twice # of malesPlease distribute $100 for case 2 females and 1 male
Want to be sure this is correct understanding of (to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females)?
? f + ? f + ? m = 1
$25 + $25 + $50 = $1001 female and 1 male (and if she was one, so for her the half)
f = m 11 ratio case # of females equals # of males3+ females and Xmales (so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds)
1 ? 2/3 females = 1/3 males ratio 21I?ll have a look over the weekend.
Second case 2 females and more than two males case a) females get half and males get the other half
For clarification, please check to see if ? above is correct; or is it 2/3?
Perhaps help me fill-in template below with total ratio femalesmales for distribution; I already did?
1 female and 1 male
f = m 11 ratio case females equals maleshttp//i25.tinypic.com/64l7xs.jpg
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1m 2m 3m
1f 11 11 11
2f 12 11 12
3f 21 21 11
(If I correctly understood his theory)
The number of females is the variable on which the equation is based, and the number of males revolves around it.
Maybe you better read Dr. Sha7rour's theory critically and comment on it. Here's a shortcut of Chapter Three from his book
http//www.shahrour.org/B4-9.htm?zoom_highlight=%DD%DE%E5+%C7%E1%E3%D1%C3%C9
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1m 2m 3m
1f 11 11 11
2f 12 11 12
3f 21 21 11
(If I correctly understood his theory)
The number of females is the variable on which the equation is based, and the number of males revolves around it.
Salaam Samia,
Thanks for clarifying the ratios and believe I understand how this works?
http//i29.tinypic.com/ictj0k.jpg
Case 3 daughters; 2 sons; wife
1 ? 1/8 wife = 7/8 (daughters and sons)Basically look up distribution ratio for 3f; 2m and distribute remainder at 21 ratio female male
Case 3 daughters, father, mother, wife
1 ? 1/3 parents ? 1/8 wife = 3 daughters; who share equally in the remainder.Without sons, distribution ratio is 10 thus 3 daughters get the whole remaining pie.
I?ll test a few more cases and re-apply similar to siblings as well.
Amazing if that's all it was; something staring at you and yet can?t see it; darn preconceptions.
Peace
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Salaam Samia,
I believe there might be a slight discrepancy with ratios for brothers and sisters which should be same as with daughters and sons...
...fa-in kunna nisaan fawqa ithnatayni falahunna thulutha ma taraka
411 ...so if they are women over two, so for them (F) two thirds what he left,waladun fa-in kanata ithnatayni ani mimma taraka
4176 ...and if they (B) were two (F), so to them (B/F) the two thirds from what he leftOver/encompassing can also mean like saying a kid is over 2 years old yet not 3; more/greater than use a different word...
fa-in kanoo akthara min thalika fahum shurakao fee alththuluthi
412 so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the thirdBelow is my new understanding which "kalalatan" 412 and ?alkalalati? 4176 are same (i.e. childless/spouseless) as stated in Qur'an and they can have a father, mother, and/or siblings. If ?over two? is taken to mean 3+ then it?s a slightly different ratio for kids (use prior diagram) compared to below.
http//i29.tinypic.com/10h4ugz.jpg
http//i26.tinypic.com/rgxra9.jpg
http//i28.tinypic.com/55ny1j.jpg