Quran inheritance mistake

Onur

Hello Nun,
Well, my point is that at times, when there is absolutely no what case we still do the algebraic method to divide without remainder. The point is that having a what case is not a necessary condition to do the algebraic method. This renders the distinction somewhat inconsistent.

On the other point, you may be right. And also I realize that formal logic might be misleading. Mother would instinctually want to share with her kids- that is, the siblings of the deceased- whereas the wife/husband would not have the same motivation to share with the siblings. Quran might be attentive to that aspect of human nature.

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

I thought you said when only daughter/s they take the whole!!

I said
"Case daughter (sole inheritor) gets the whole -- no one else left to divide with."

sole inheritor there are no brothers, no sisters and she is the only inheritor.

Also, in case one daughter one son, you say (1/3 daughter and 2/3 son). But the verse says (to the male the equal of the share of the two females) not "twice the female, and we have here only one female. Why are you giving him "twice one female"?

Equal the share of two females = twice the share of one female

two females = twice one female

It's the same thing.

case 2 daughters; 1 son
daughter = 1/4
daughter = 1/4
son = 1/2

2 females share (1/4 + 1/4) = 1/2 son's share
2 * 1/4 = 1/2

It's not 2/3 for daughters (that's only applicable if there are no sons) and does not equate...

2/3 daughters + 2/3 son (to the male the equal of the share of the two females) = 1 + 1/3 which is too much!

Also, where did you get the meaning of "if she was one" as synonymous to "if she was an only child"?

If she was one definitely means ONE girl child and it's impossible for her to have brothers...

Case daughter; son
? daughter + 1 son = 1 + ? which again is too much!

4176...God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with everything knowledgeable.

Peace

Samia

Salaam Nun

Equal the share of two females = twice the share of one female

two females = twice one female

It's the same thing.

Of course it is not the same thing. The share of the two females indicates the case only when there are two females. Twice the female makes it a general principle . This is further emphasised by (if she was one female), which is definitely not (if she was the sole female). This is the error that previous scholars made and you are repeating. If I say I have one son this does not mean I do not have daughters, but shows that the subject is about "sons". The same thing in inheritance verses It revolves around the female, not the male; and the verse is about your children ONLY, no mention of parents or spouses in this verse.

sole inheritor there are no brothers, no sisters and she is the only inheritor.

My question is still standing. You have not answered it. The verse clearly says, in the same context of more than two girls, that "if she was one then she gets the half". But I see that you immediately consider this as "not the sole heir". The WHOLE verse did not mention AT ALL any parents nor spouse, but did mention, and IS ABOUT CHILDREN. So why do you decide that this is the case of "if there are parents and/or spouse but no brothers" (quite the contrary to the theme of the verse)? Are you adding information not given to us implicitly nor explixitly?

Another question that you have not answered before What if they were only two daughters? Why isn't this case not mentioned in the verse, but only if she was one AND if they were above two (if it was really about only girls who are not sole heirs)?

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

My question is still standing. You have not answered it. The verse clearly says, in the same context of more than two girls, that "if she was one then she gets the half". But I see that you immediately consider this as "not the sole heir". The WHOLE verse did not mention AT ALL any parents nor spouse, but did mention, and IS ABOUT CHILDREN. So why do you decide that this is the case of "if there are parents and/or spouse but no brothers" (quite the contrary to the theme of the verse)? Are you adding information not given to us implicitly nor explixitly?

The verse mentions parents...
411
God directs/commands/recommends you in your children, to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females, so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds (from) what he left, and if she was one, so for her the half and to his parents, to each one from them (B) the sixth from what he left,if for him was a child (son), so if (there) was not for him a child (son), and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the third, so if brothers were for him, so to his mother the sixth, from after a bequest/will he bequeaths with it or a debt; your (P) fathers and your (P) sons, you (P) do not know, which of them (is) closer to you (P) (in) benefit/usefulness, a religious duty/command from God, that God was/is knowledgeable, wise/judicious.

Another question that you have not answered before What if they were only two daughters?

They get whole thing.

Why isn't this case not mentioned in the verse, but only if she was one AND if they were above two (if it was really about only girls who are not sole heirs)?

These are simple IF statements; I really don't understand your questions.

Please give case examples and I'll try answering the best I can how to distribute.

Then you tell us how it should be according to your reading.

Also, this is not about a single verse or part of a verse rather all verses in Quran or the whole aggregate view on inheritance ? one part cannot contradict another.

Peace

Samia

Salaam Samia,

The verse mentions parents...
411

You are right. My mistake.

if for him was a child (son), so if (there) was not for him a child (son),

What do you mean by (son) between two brackets? Does the verse say "male"? "walad" means child, irrespective of gender.

and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the third, so if brothers were for him, so to his mother the sixth, from after a bequest/will he bequeaths with it or a debt; your (P) fathers and your (P) sons,

Again, why "sons"? It says "abnaa'ukum" which means "descendants" irrespective of gender.
The verse mentions parents, then speaks only of the mother. Is she the sole parent?

I really don't understand your questions

I mean this part

"so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds (from) what he left, and if she was one, so for her the half "
Which you believe is "daughters but no sons"
Case of one female
Case of more than two females.

What if they were two?

unknownuser

You are right. My mistake.

What do you mean by (son) between two brackets? Does the verse say "male"? "walad" means child, irrespective of gender.

Again, why "sons"? It says "abnaa'ukum" which means "descendants" irrespective of gender.
The verse mentions parents, then speaks only of the mother. Is she the sole parent?

Was in a hurry and copy/pasted the literal translation; http//www.islam-muslims.org/quran/4/11/

Point was to show that parent was included in the verse.

I mean this part

"so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds (from) what he left, and if she was one, so for her the half "
Which you believe is "daughters but no sons"
Case of one female
Case of more than two females.

What if they were two?

Are you suggesting that part does not include two females and only 3 or greater?

If 1 female she gets 1/2 and males regardless of how many get 1/2
If 3 or more females they get 2/3 and males regardless of number get 1/3
If 2 females they share with "the male" according to
"to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females"

Is that your understanding and if so, what if there are 2 females and 2 or more males?

Also, please distribute below case according to your understanding of Quran...

case 3 daughters; 2 sons; mother; father; wife

I have it thus

sons = 13/84 each
daughters = 13/168 each
wife = 1/8
father = 1/6
mother = 1/6

Peace

Samia

Salaam Nun

Thank you very much for your patience and the high manners with you went through this with me. I really appreciate this.
The fact of the matter is that these are not my ideas, although I agree with them so much that I was afraid they would be "too good to be true". I tried with many people to see if they were error proof, but they were not as patient or knowledgeable as you.

These are from Dr Sha7rour's book (Towards new fundamentals on Islamic Jurisprudence concerning women &#1577, where he discusses inheritance in over 100 pages.

Dr. Sha7rour believes that in this verse (11) we have the basic formula for inheritance distribution amongst the children

2 f and 1 male
1 female and 1 male
3+ females and Xmales

They are the unit formula, to which we can apply different multiples or variables

a) 2x X females and X males
b) X females and X males
c) 3 x X females and YX males, where the multiples are neither a nor b.

Back to your question
I) 2f and 2 or 2+ m

First case 2 f and 2m is calculated as 1f.and 1 m (half for the females and half for the males) boys and girls get equal shares.
Second case 2 females and more than two males case a) females get half and males get the other half boys and girls will not necesarily get equal shares.

II) 3 daughters and 2 sons case c), because it is not a multiple of case a) nor b).

This is a summary of the basic equation.

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

Thank you very much for your patience and the high manners with you went through this with me. I really appreciate this.
The fact of the matter is that these are not my ideas, although I agree with them so much that I was afraid they would be "too good to be true". I tried with many people to see if they were error proof, but they were not as patient or knowledgeable as you.

Thank you ? my pleasure. Good we continued the discussion; it?s a new and interesting perspective.

2 females and 1 male (to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females)
2f = m 12 ratio case # of females is twice # of males

Please distribute $100 for case 2 females and 1 male

Want to be sure this is correct understanding of (to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females)?
? f + ? f + ? m = 1
$25 + $25 + $50 = $100

1 female and 1 male (and if she was one, so for her the half)
f = m 11 ratio case # of females equals # of males

3+ females and Xmales (so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds)
1 ? 2/3 females = 1/3 males ratio 21

I?ll have a look over the weekend.

Second case 2 females and more than two males case a) females get half and males get the other half

For clarification, please check to see if ? above is correct; or is it 2/3?

Perhaps help me fill-in template below with total ratio femalesmales for distribution; I already did?

1 female and 1 male
f = m 11 ratio case females equals males

http//i25.tinypic.com/64l7xs.jpg

Samia

1m 2m 3m

1f 11 11 11

2f 12 11 12

3f 21 21 11

(If I correctly understood his theory)

The number of females is the variable on which the equation is based, and the number of males revolves around it.

Maybe you better read Dr. Sha7rour's theory critically and comment on it. Here's a shortcut of Chapter Three from his book

http//www.shahrour.org/B4-9.htm?zoom_highlight=%DD%DE%E5+%C7%E1%E3%D1%C3%C9

unknownuser

1m 2m 3m

1f 11 11 11

2f 12 11 12

3f 21 21 11

(If I correctly understood his theory)

The number of females is the variable on which the equation is based, and the number of males revolves around it.

Salaam Samia,

Thanks for clarifying the ratios and believe I understand how this works?

http//i29.tinypic.com/ictj0k.jpg

Case 3 daughters; 2 sons; wife
1 ? 1/8 wife = 7/8 (daughters and sons)

Basically look up distribution ratio for 3f; 2m and distribute remainder at 21 ratio female male

Case 3 daughters, father, mother, wife
1 ? 1/3 parents ? 1/8 wife = 3 daughters; who share equally in the remainder.

Without sons, distribution ratio is 10 thus 3 daughters get the whole remaining pie.

I?ll test a few more cases and re-apply similar to siblings as well.

Amazing if that's all it was; something staring at you and yet can?t see it; darn preconceptions.

Peace

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

I believe there might be a slight discrepancy with ratios for brothers and sisters which should be same as with daughters and sons...

...fa-in kunna nisaan fawqa ithnatayni falahunna thulutha ma taraka
411 ...so if they are women over two, so for them (F) two thirds what he left,

waladun fa-in kanata ithnatayni ani mimma taraka
4176 ...and if they (B) were two (F), so to them (B/F) the two thirds from what he left

Over/encompassing can also mean like saying a kid is over 2 years old yet not 3; more/greater than use a different word...

fa-in kanoo akthara min thalika fahum shurakao fee alththuluthi
412 so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the third

Below is my new understanding which "kalalatan" 412 and ?alkalalati? 4176 are same (i.e. childless/spouseless) as stated in Qur'an and they can have a father, mother, and/or siblings. If ?over two? is taken to mean 3+ then it?s a slightly different ratio for kids (use prior diagram) compared to below.

http//i29.tinypic.com/10h4ugz.jpg

http//i26.tinypic.com/rgxra9.jpg

http//i28.tinypic.com/55ny1j.jpg

unknownuser

Greetings all ?

Here is the write up on inheritance verses for future reference.

I?ve also attach a pdf with above diagrams in case the links posted earlier disappear.

waladun fa-in kanata ithnatayni ani mimma taraka
4176 ...and if they (B) were two (F), so to them (B/F) the two thirds from what he left

...fa-in kunna nisaan fawqa ithnatayni falahunna thulutha ma taraka
411 ...so if they are women over two, so for them (F) two thirds what he left,

The above in my opinion should read ?...so if they are women over/encompassing two similar as in...?

Wahuwa alqahiru fawqa AAibadihi wahuwa alhakeemu alkhabeeru
618 And He is the defeater/conqueror over His worshippers/slaves, and He is the wise/judicious, the expert.

Over/encompassing like saying child is over 2 years old (encompassing 2); more/most/greater than word use...

fa-in kanoo akthara min thalika fahum shurakao fee alththuluthi
412 so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the third

Quran 411 ??to the male?? relationship to number of females implied in context to all three cases.

CHILDREN
?God directs/commands/recommends you in your children, to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females,?

Ratio of distribution = 12 female/male which is the general case except when...

??so if they are/were women over (encompassing) two, so for them (F) two thirds??

IF number of women is two (still in relation to the male) thus...

IF 2f or similar multiple 2f = m then ratio of distribution = 21

2f; 1 ? nth m
4f; 2m
8f; 4m

??and if she was one, so for her the half??

Again this is still in relation to the male...

IF 1f or similar mix f = m then ratio of distribution = 11

1f; 1 ? nth m
2f; 2m
3f; 3m

PARENTS
...and to his parents, to each one from them (B) the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child, so if (there) was not for him a child), and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,

Case mother; father
1 ? 1/3 mother = 2/3 father

The above is obvious logic; IF only parents, mother gets 1/3 leaving 2/3 for father else IF one parent they get the whole.

...so if brothers were for him, so to his mother the 1/6,
(see 412 and 4176 for distributions ratios)

...from after a bequest/will he bequeaths with it or a debt; your (P) fathers and your (P) sons, you (P) do not know, which of them (is) closer to you (P) (in) benefit/usefulness, a religious duty/command from God, that God was/is knowledgeable, wise/judicious.

Quran 412

HUSBAND
And for you (P) 1/2 what your (P) spouses/wives left, if (there) was/is not for them (F) a child, so if (there) was/is for them a child, so for you (P) the 1/4 from what they (F) left from after a bequest/will they (F) bequeath/direct with it or a debt

WIVES
...and for them (F) the 1/4 from what you (P) left, if (there) was not for you (P) a child, so
if (there) was for you (P) a child, so for them (F) the 1/8 from what you (P) left from after a bequest/will you (P) bequeath/direct with it or a debt

...and if (he) was/is a man to be inherited kalalatan (without child) or a woman (wife), and for him (is) a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them (B) the 1/6

Note above sequence; CHILDREN, PARENTS, SPOUSES, and finally how to deal with a deceased who is childless and spouseless (which we are all born kalalat) allowing brothers and sisters to partake (replacing children) if NO child or spouse.

IF 1f or 1m = 1/6 of total inheritance

Case 1 brother; mother; father
1 ? 1/6 mother ? 1/6 brother = 2/3 father

Case 1 sister; mother; father
1 ? 1/3 mother ? 1/6 sister = 1/2 father

??...so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the 1/3, from after a bequest/will is bequeathed/directed with it or a debt not harming, (a) direction/command from God, and God (is) knowledgeable clement.

IF 1f and/or 1m > 1 = 1/3 of total inheritance

Case brother/s and sister/s; father
1 ? 1/3 (brother/s and sister/s; see 4176 for distribution ratio) = 2/3 father

Case 2+ brothers; mother; father
1 ? 1/6 mother ? 1/3 brothers = 1/2 father

Case 2+ sisters; mother; father
1 ? 1/3 mother ? 1/3 sisters = 1/3 father

Quran 4176 Distribution ratios for brothers and sisters

They ask your opinion/clarification , say "God decrees/decides in alkalalati, if (a) man/human died, not for him (without) a child, and for him (is) a sister, so for her half (of) what he left, and he inherits her if (there) was not for her a child??

Another common misconception is with ?...and he inherits her? which means she gets 1/2 and he gets 1/2 of the brother/sister pie NOT the WHOLE inheritance which there may be parents who need to be given their shares first.

IF 1f or f = m ratio of distribution = 11

1f; 1 ? nth m
2f; 2m
3f; 3m

Case 1 sister; 1 brother
1/2 sister + 1/2 brother = 1

Case 1 sibling ratio 10 or 01 and since no other heirs then he/she gets entire inheritance.

??and if they (B) were two (F), so to them (B/F) the 2/3 from what he left??

IF 2f or 2f = m ratio of distribution = 21

2f; 1 ? nth m
4f; 2m
8f; 4m

Case 2 sisters and 1 brother
Sisters get 2/3 and brother gets 1/3 at ratio = 21

?? and if they were brothers (siblings) men and women, so to the male equal/alike (th) share e(of) the two females,

Ratio of distribution = 12 female/male

The above is the general case with the exceptions mentioned; below is ratio distribution depending on mix...

1m 2m 3m 4m

1f 11 11 11 11

2f 21 11 21 21

3f 12 12 11 12

4f 12 21 12 11

NOTE above ratios of distribution for one female to one male, not one to many or many to one.

Examples distributing $100 to children/siblings pie after all others are paid off...

Case 1f; 1m ? + ? = 1 50 + 50 = 100
Case 2f; 1m 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1 33.3 + 33.3 + 33.3 = 100
Case 3f; 1m 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/5 + 2/5 20 + 20 + 20 + 40 = 100
Case 4f; 1m 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/3 = 1 16.7 + 16.7 + 16.7 + 16.7 + 33.3 = 100

Case 1f; 2m 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1
Case 1f; 3m ? + ? + ? + ? = 1
Case 1f; 4m 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/5 + 1/5 = 1

Case 2f; 2m ? + ? = 1
Case 2f; 3m 2/7 + 2/7 + 1/7 + 1/7 + 1/7 = 1
Case 2f; 4m ? + ? + 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/8 = 1

God clarifies for you that (E) you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.

Peace

Onur

Peace all,

A lot seems to be going on here and I cannot quite follow it) So I need to ask for clarification. Nun you say,

"Quran 411 ??to the male?? relationship to number of females implied in context to all three cases."

Do you mean that when Quran talks about 2/3 for daughters when they are more than two, this is in relation to the inheritance of sons as opposed to a fixed share from the whole? I ask this because Quran says "falahunnathulutha ma taraka" 2/3 what he/she has left ("he/she" obviously refers to the deceased )

Onur

unknownuser

Do you mean that when Quran talks about 2/3 for daughters when they are more than two, this is in relation to the inheritance of sons as opposed to a fixed share from the whole?

Yes, exactly! Although not sure if fawqa two means more than two, else distribution for daughters/sons changes slightly.

Talks about portion what he/she left for THE CHILDREN and how to distribute accordingly depending on female/male mix.

411 God directs you in your children, to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females, so if they are/were women fawqa two, so for them (F) two thirds (from) what he left, and if she was one, so for her the half

Reading through in context it is still in relation ?...to the male...?

Similarly 4176 says how to distribute brothers/sisters portion depending on their mix...

Basically distribute to parents and spouse if they exist then remaining amount to children depending on their mix else if no children or spouse (kalalatan) brothers and sisters partake as would children with similar ratios.

Case mother, father, 2 daughters, 2 sons

411 and to his parents, to each one from them (B) the sixth from what he left, if for him was a child

1 ? 1/3 parents (1/6 mother + 1/6 father) = 2/3 children

2 daughters and 2 sons is same mix as 1 daughter and 1 son

411 ?...and if she was one, so for her the half

2 daughters get ? of 2/3 children?s total share and likewise the sons gets other ? of 2/3.

Thus all 4 children get an equal share of the remainder (after parents are paid) or ratio 11 female/male...

1m 2m 3m 4m

1f 11 11 11 11

2f 21 11 21 21

3f 12 12 11 12

4f 12 21 12 11

Onur

I would be pleased to accept this interpretation but it seems to go against grammar
How can "2/3 what he/she left" mean the same thing as "2/3 of the son's share".
Note the expression "2/3 what he/she left." The verb is "to leave" and he/she refers to the deceased person, person who leaves behind money when he dies. The grammar seems to suggest that daughters get 2/3 from what the deceased person/their father leaves behind.

unknownuser

The verb is "to leave" and he/she refers to the deceased person, person who leaves behind money when he dies. The grammar seems to suggest that daughters get 2/3 from what the deceased person/their father leaves behind.

Right, daughters (in this case) get 2/3 what the deceased person/their father left behind for the children.

411 God directs you in your children,...

To state/apply a fixed amount to a variable (i.e. number of children/siblings and their gender mix) never works and will be mathematically/logically flawed with contradiction.

1 ? 2/3 daughters ? 1/3 parents = 1 which leaves nothing to a wife and sons.

One has to ask/calculate WHAT exactly did he leave behind for the children?

If mother 1 ? 1/6 = 5/6 children?s share
If mother, father 1 ? 1/3 = 2/3 children?s share
If wife, father 1 - 1/8 - 1/6 = 17/24 children's share
If wife, mother, father 1 ? 1/8 ? 1/3 = 13/24 children?s share

Likewise, brothers and sisters are variables dependent on mix and inheritors present.

Samia

Salaam all

Yes, quite a long has gone fast! I would like to comment on two points by Nun

...fa-in kunna nisaan fawqa ithnatayni falahunna thulutha ma taraka
411 ...so if they are women over two, so for them (F) two thirds what he left,

waladun fa-in kanata ithnatayni ani mimma taraka
4176 ...and if they (B) were two (F), so to them (B/F) the two thirds from what he left

Over/encompassing can also mean like saying a kid is over 2 years old yet not 3; more/greater than use a different word...

This is the first point. One cannot give example of age in this case. You can say the boy is two and a half years old, but you cannot say the deceeased left two and a half girls. Over two is not two or more.

The second point is your differentiating between "kilalatan" and "alkilala", which is really bizarre! No difference whatsoever between the two. It's as if you are saying "being a boy is for a male up to the age of ten and the boy is the male between 11 and 16"; because "kilalatan" in the verse means (a man/woman being kilalatan), and the explanation of kilala is given in verse 4176.

And a question What do you mean by

I believe there might be a slight discrepancy with ratios for brothers and sisters which should be same as with daughters and sons

Why should they be the same? Are children and siblings the same? That's why they are in different verses.

I haven't gone through formulae. If we understand the principles, formulae will be OK (if we ar good in math ;D), otherwise leave the calculations to the expert, and this is what I will be doing

unknownuser

Hello again Samia,

This is the first point. One cannot give example of age in this case. You can say the boy is two and a half years old, but you cannot say the deceeased left two and a half girls. Over two is not two or more.

If it means over two (i.e. 3+) then we use these ratios to divide shares amongst children.

1m 2m 3m

1f 11 11 11

2f 12 11 12

3f 21 21 11

The second point is your differentiating between "kilalatan" and "alkilala", which is really bizarre! No difference whatsoever between the two.

That's exactly what my earlier conclusion was except differ with traditionalists that the person has to be fatherless ...

Below is my new understanding which "kalalatan" 412 and ?alkalalati? 4176 are same (i.e. childless/spouseless) as stated in Qur'an and they can have a father, mother, and/or siblings.

And a question What do you mean by
Why should they be the same? Are children and siblings the same? That's why they are in different verses.

Makes sense although have to look into it -- see attached pdf with different ratios for children and siblings.

Peace

huruf

My most heartfelt contragulations to the writers of this threda. I am impressed and moved by the staying power and dedication. When I started to read de messages to me it was like reading Marsian. It continues the same, but at times I have the funny sensation that I may understand one of two words of Marsian, but I am not sure. So I will ask just one question

1m 2m 3m

1f 11 11 11

2f 12 11 12

3f 21 21 11

In this table

first line, first row, 11 means 1 male gets as much as one female,

first line second row 11 two males get as much as one female

First line 3rd row 11 three males get as much as one female

Second line 1st row 12 means one male gets as much as two females

2nd row 11 means two males get as much as two females

3rd row 12 means three males get as much as two females

Third line 1st row 21 means three females gets twice as much as 1 male

2nd row 21 means three females get twice as much as two males

3rd row 11 means that three females get as much as three males

Is that it?

please confirm or correct my faulty understanding.

I Had given up getting any insight into these questions of inheritance in the Quran, so I am thrilled about those two words or Marsian that I may understand now and thank you again for your sustained input. May the Inheritor bless you.

Salaam

Samia

Salaam Nun

Sorry I did not see your earlier understanding of (kilalatan/alkilala) and am glad you are sticking to this.
The attachment corrects this error and what resulted of it.

Salaam huruf

If you understand this table correctly (which you do bravo), then welcome to the planet Mars! This table is as far as I can go with issuing formulae (I understand them though).