A Quranic community? - a few questions first...

Rajah

Rajah
what country do you live in at the moment? As it seems the main benefit(s) for you moving to such a community could be acheived by living in pretty much any country in the "West".

I live in Singapore. Well I beg to differ about the west. It seems in the industrialised west, there are more than one government for each of its nation/country. You have the favourite/rigged and won/food and drug lobbyists'/secret/true,false & 'not so sure' media and other kinds of 'governments' running the country. Of course every country has it faults. peace
I like my country-water is drinkable from the tap mmmmm there must be other reasons too but nothing comes to my mind now..I am not going to defend the piece of land i am living in against any valid/proven claims that certain human rights are violated or anything that seems strange-my country banned chewing gum-hey..it might have benefits-most chewing gums are sweet BUT some say it might help with dental hygiene.
BUT I/my kind will not tolerate any instigations that would set the stage for angry mobs from both this country or any from outside to run free and destroy what has been built by my country's pioneers & nature reserves and what little 'wildlife' we have.
I support universal brotherhood and a country is just a country-God says that this world is big and you are free to move all around it. Those who are blindly patriotic must realise God can destroy a country via any of His ingenious methods-earthquake/tidal waves/asteroid in an instant.....God's earth vs man made boundaries called 'countries'...choose.....God mentioned nations in the Quran and not countries I believe..maybe that would be for another discussion.cheers...

..................................................Earth citizenship Visa........................

Alen

peace all,
The topic of a "Quranic community" tends to come up regularly here, generates discussion etc. and when it does, I often feel a little puzzled as to the comments/reaction. So I want to investigate some underlying things to see if I can understand it better. If I were to ask those in favour of such a community some questions, I would start with

What is your primary motive for wanting to join/form such a community?
What do you feel you can do in such a community that you cant do in the community where you live at the moment?
Let's say you join such a community, but they implement practices/law that you do not agree with, what would you do?
How far would you be willing to go to protect such a community if it existed?
If forming such a community will take time/effort, do you think the same time/effort could be better utilised, or is this not really a concern?
Is there any criteria you would stipulate for a community member to have in order for them to join?
I may think of some more questions later.
Even if you are not for such a community, feel free to answer theoretically if you wish, or if you are not for or against, you can still answer.

Peace,
Respectfully.

I would want to join/form sucha community in order to live by the Law of God and to avoid sinful acts. It would be the closeest thing to the utopian society, God willing. It would be easier.
I can't live by the Law of God in this community due to certain issues. I am living by the Law of God at the moment with ease but it would be much, much easier in the Quranic society., God willing.
If the community is running according to the Quran, then there would be no disagreemnts, God willing.
I would protect it according to the Quran.
To form such a communtiy would take as much as one day, because all of us here are pulling in the same direction and at the same time, ergo, if the people are pulling in the same direction and at the same time and for the same goal, God willing, they will achieve this goal within minutes.
I'd say, follow the Quran and that is all.

May Allah SWT protects us all.
Peace.

Wakas

peace Alen,

To form such a communtiy would take as much as one day, because all of us here are pulling in the same direction and at the same time, ergo, if the people are pulling in the same direction and at the same time and for the same goal, God willing, they will achieve this goal within minutes.

You seem to imply it is very easy to form such a community. If so, why hasn't it happened?

Alen

peace Alen,
You seem to imply it is very easy to form such a community. If so, why hasn't it happened?

Peace,
Respecfully.

I don't know what others are waiting for but we first need a location, right?
Let's first decide in which city should we form this community.
We who live in UK should decide for UK cities, obviously.
Those in USA, have the states.
There are members all over the world, so now the next question is this where should we form this community, which city in the UK. I'm speaking now for the UK members.

I live in Leicester but am willing to relocate to live with my brothers and sisters.
God bless you all.
Peace.

Wakas

peace Alen,

Respectfully, if you wish to discuss things to do with an actual plan, then please start a new thread. This thread was about trying to understand the intentions/reasons/thinking/etc behind forming/joining such a community.

Wakas

peace all,

Based on this thread (and others to a lesser extent)

So the issues identified so far

lack of realistic/practical thinking about an actual plan
variations in understanding of what AQ actually says on this subject

I have thought of another question effort level expectations

As a % of your spare/free/leisure time, what % do you think would be required to be used to join/form (and then build/continue) such a community?

e.g. let's say you worked 9am-5pm (e.g. 8 hours), 8 hours sleep, and 2 hours for other stuff. Per day, that would leave 6 hours. Just think out of those 6 hours how much time could you contribute. If you only worked 5 days a week, this would give you an extra 28 hours every week, but let's minus 4 more hours for relaxation time. So, in this example, the total number of hours of spare/free/leisure time per week would be 54 hours. That actually sounds quite high to me, so let's say from a maximum of 45 hours per week.

Could you have a think about it, and estimate how many hours per week do you think you would contribute?

Thanks.

AlFajr

peace all,

Based on this thread (and others to a lesser extent)

So the issues identified so far

lack of realistic/practical thinking about an actual plan
variations in understanding of what AQ actually says on this subject

I have thought of another question effort level expectations

As a % of your spare/free/leisure time, what % do you think would be required to be used to join/form (and then build/continue) such a community?

e.g. let's say you worked 9am-5pm (e.g. 8 hours), 8 hours sleep, and 2 hours for other stuff. Per day, that would leave 6 hours. Just think out of those 6 hours how much time could you contribute. If you only worked 5 days a week, this would give you an extra 28 hours every week, but let's minus 4 more hours for relaxation time. So, in this example, the total number of hours of spare/free/leisure time per week would be 54 hours. That actually sounds quite high to me, so let's say from a maximum of 45 hours per week.

Could you have a think about it, and estimate how many hours per week do you think you would contribute?

Thanks.

Peace bro Wakas,
Thanks for the questions. I tried to answer to my understanding.

lack of realistic/practical thinking about an actual plan
If people want to migrate then we should think of a plan. There is no point agreeing on a plan unless people are expected to carry it out.
variations in understanding of what AQ actually says on this subject
Briefly, I don't like being the unique person in my vicinity. I'd much rather live around people who believe as I do. Not as complete clones but agreeing on the basics. That the Quran is the message of God, it should be followed sincerely and not mixed with man made conjecture. I have given up on "convincing" people that it is the truth, because it is not up to us to guide. We are not guardians over the people. However I still believe it is good to spread the message, but even that is easier done as a group (see Jehovah's witnesses, Mormans etc.)

Regarding verses. Migrating in the cause of God is something strongly encouraged.

1641 And those who have emigrated for God, after they were oppressed, We will grant them good in the world, and the reward of the Hereafter will be greater, if they knew.

I argue that many of us are oppressed even though we are not physically threatened. For many of us it is simply because of the trangression and disbelief that surrounds us.

1880 ?And as for the youth, his parents were believers, so we feared that he would oppress them by his transgression and disbelief.?

So the above verse makes it clear that oppression is not only through warfare. Ultimately I want to migrate because of this

497 Those whose lives are terminated by the angels, while they had wronged their souls; they said ?What situation were you in??, they said ?We were oppressed on Earth.? They said ?Was God?s Earth not wide enough that you could emigrate in it?? To these their abode will be Hell; what a miserable destiny!
498 Except for those who were oppressed from the men, women, and children who could not devise a plan nor could be guided to a way.

We can devise a plan to live amongst believers, what excuses do we have?

Could you have a think about it, and estimate how many hours per week do you think you would contribute?
One can contribute money as well as time. If people are not willing to contribute some money or time then they do not really want a community. Maybe if we determined a "plan" we may get a better idea of what the costs involved are. What exactly are we spending on?

It would be interesting to hear what others have to say as well.

Wakas

peace bro aalmakto,

lack of realistic/practical thinking about an actual plan
If people want to migrate then we should think of a plan. There is no point agreeing on a plan unless people are expected to carry it out.

I would have thought having a practical/realistic plan first would help generate participation. I see little value in getting the numbers before having some sort of plan.

Re your reply to (2)
I am not saying, in any way, that such a cause/community/idea is not worth pursuing. I was referring to people's variation in understandings on how such a community should work with respect to AQ. You can see this from the answers. This needs to be addressed, or at the very least highlighted so people who are for such an idea are aware of it.

One can contribute money as well as time. If people are not willing to contribute some money or time then they do not really want a community. Maybe if we determined a "plan" we may get a better idea of what the costs involved are.

I agree that money as well as time can be contributed. To me, time is something nearly all can give, hence asking it with respect to time. Money is just a conversion of time, because people will have spent time making this money. I also agree, that giving of money/time is an important factor in determining a person's intentions towards this. AQ explicitly states those who strive with their money and their lives (which would include time) have a higher status or gain a greater reward. It is no coincidence it mentions this, as I am sure we have all experienced people who become reluctant when money is mentioned or where hard work is required, including ourselves.

I would like to say there probably is a natural reluctance to answer the "effort level" question that I asked. I would say to all those for such an idea, it wouldn't take long for the community to see how much time/money you were contributing, so there is no point in leaving this unanswered. Might as well be honest.

What exactly are we spending on?

Well, if the only goal is to live amongst like-minded individuals then not much time/money would be needed. I assumed things like charity, volunteering, spreading the message, creating infrastructure for others to join, creating business etc would be taking place... which would need time/money. These are just off the top of my head, as I said, I have not given this idea much thought as I am neutral or not for it.... yet.

Wakas

Can I assume by the lack of response to my 'effort level' question implies problems in the will/effort/expectations areas?

TheNabi

Peace

From reading the first post, I think forming communities is possible of course like the Jews do in NY with their various families, temples, and kosher stores about the place. They therefore have means to adhere to certain practices to which they believe. Not sure how far you can take that if you want to tend to the various laws which do not exist where the laws of NY do for instance where the Jews here live. I assume they form communities to be around what is familiar, practice their religion together, and marry into their families.

Joe

Alen

Peace,
Respectfully.

Quranic community will come into existance when we start working on it.
It's easy to sit here and write what i can do and what i will do for sucha community but i cannot do anything, we can, emphasis on we.

Peace.

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace All

I only saw this thread for the very first time today.

It is interesting that most of the feedback seems to be about living together in a quranic community in order to be able to live by the quran, while others seem to be opposing (maybe not entirely opposing) this saying that the same thing can be done in the communities we currently live in. For me it would make more sense to come together, as some have suggested, so that certain commonality is experienced. There is nothing wrong with this. In fact, I would like to put forward some questions.

Have any of you attended a conference in your respective countries where like minded quranic people have got together to discuss issues?

Has there been such a gathering in your country that you are aware of?

Wakas, I hope that you don't mind me putting these questions forward while I have not answered yours. I will endeavour to draft some answers to your questions in relation to a group of us who have started taking practical steps towards the formation of a Quranic Community. The reason for my questions is that we have had such a conference and I found the answers to some of your questions in the staging of the conference as well as the feelings upon leaving and saying in touch beyond the conference.

Imraan

SarahY

Peace Wakas, all.

I was having a discussion with my brother and it made me think of this thread so I wanted to post some thoughts.(and sorry I didn't read everything everyone posted so if I repeated anything, sorry)

1)Primary motive for joining? many people will want to join for comfort, for ease of practicing their beliefs. But also 3103-104

3103 (Asad) And hold fast, all together, unto the bond with God, and do not draw apart from one another. And remember the blessings which God has bestowed upon you how, when you were enemies, He brought your hearts together, so that through His blessing you became brethren; and you were on the brink of a fiery abyss. He saved you from it. In this way God makes clear His messages unto you, so that you might find guidance,

3104 (Asad) and that there might grow out of you a community who invite unto all that is good, and enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong and it is they, they who shall attain to a happy state!

What do you feel you can do in such a community that you cant do in the community where you live at the moment?

Personally I can still be a muslim I can still practice my faith. The difference I think would be I wouldn?t hold back because of family. I would have a community to support me to do good, whereas now I need approval before I can do good. My community would not support my views because they will say my 3aqida is wrong. Though independence plays a part. I have no one but myself to support myself so I can?t take too many ?risks? until I?m totally independent.

A community would place an encouragement/motivator, it would support me because it won?t label my creed as messed up/wrong. Though that?s too much positive thinking.

Let's say you join such a community, but they implement practices/law that you do not agree with, what would you do?

Wouldn?t that be difficult? Definitely. How would the community make its law, are people in that community able to refute such laws? Is it a law of democracy or a law of haqq? How can we be sure?

I think, gauge it with people on free-minds and how their views differ. Maybe for example someone will say you must chop off the hand of a thief but the law isn?t that, what then? Does the law allow people to chop the thief?s hand because it is their belief? Does it give people a leeway to follow their choices?

Maybe it doesn?t, but let?s say people take matters in their own hands? And chop a person?s hand and they justify it by their beliefs, what happens to the person who chopped the thief?s hand. Maybe if the thief agreed it wouldn?t be a huge deal?

But to be realistic a community would need to follow the laws of the state, it?s not like they can create laws, or can they?

Though actually I was thinking of community differently. Maybe you mean more about associations or like community groups inside a state/suburb area. i.e quranic community does this and that, another community of I dunno women?s associations/rights, another community of green peace people. Etc? people advocating for specific causes/agendas.

How far would you be willing to go to protect such a community if it existed?

If such a community existed, I?d migrate after my studies, if possible. I?d do what I can but to be reasonable, if the community existed... actually how would it be established in the first place?

Would it be given a name that people would instantly stereotype against it and have negative bias prejudice? If people saw a good community, they?d wanna be in it no matter what. They?d do anything to be there. Think of people who go on boats leave everything behind and migrate to countries. Think of people who marry just anyone from a western country just for the sake of ?a better life? to be away from war/poverty etc.

If forming such a community will take time/effort, do you think the same time/effort could be better utilised, or is this not really a concern?

Sometimes I think it?s almost next to impossible. Because migrating to different countries can?t always happen. I just think of Australia.. if you marry an Australian, they can get an Australian citizenship. If you have education/skill you can apply in the workforce as an international, I think (not to sure) by that you can apply for residency. You can get a student visa, study complete studies and possibly apply for citizenship/residency. The way citizenship works I dunno it?s complicated and works on point systems..

I dunno too much about it but it?s complicated. I can?t just wish to migrate to a country and get residency or citizenship. So if such a community would exist it would be more likely to exist in the country you?re in with like minded people. So that?s why I think its almost next to impossible. People won?t wanna die to live in you community until they see it is awesome.

Back to the question.. i?m not sure what time and effort exactly would be made to create the community. Because how would it be done?

The same time and effort could be better utilised, not everyone utilises their time efficiently though (me being the biggest example). That time depends on what that person can do or what they are willing to do. Not everyone is going to utilise time to help people or themselves. A community establishment could possible act as a motivator for them to utilise their time.

Is there any criteria you would stipulate for a community member to have in order for them to join?

Nothing I can think of other than abide by the law of the community.

As a % of your spare/free/leisure time, what % do you think would be required to be used to join/form (and then build/continue) such a community?

Could you have a think about it, and estimate how many hours per week do you think you would contribute?

What does contribute mean? What exactly do you mean by that?

Personally what holds me back is my dependence, once I finish studies I can work and have the time/finances to commit to things. Let?s say I have no studies all I have is a job. I?d give my leisure time up to join/form the community. But does that mean I would lose my job? And need to relocate? I?d help build the community prob on weekends to be realistic maybe 25-30hours. If I wasn?t working than a lot more.

This community exists, though not physically. What is this community doing to help each other? Lot?s of people myself included are learning things even removing preconceived ideas. It takes time to accept or see. At least for me it did.

Besides all the questions I said or asked. What type of community did you have in mind? I understand a quranic community but how exactly did you picture a quranic community running? Do you mean just like the local sunni group association or did you mean more than that?

Peace )

Wakas

peace Sarah, all,

You ask a lot of questions, so I will try and be brief, but accurate.

Personally I can still be a muslim I can still practice my faith. The difference I think would be I wouldn?t hold back because of family. I would have a community to support me to do good, whereas now I need approval before I can do good. My community would not support my views because they will say my 3aqida is wrong. Though independence plays a part. I have no one but myself to support myself so I can?t take too many ?risks? until I?m totally independent.

A community would place an encouragement/motivator, it would support me because it won?t label my creed as messed up/wrong. Though that?s too much positive thinking.

Most of those living in a Western country are not really limited in terms of practising their beliefs HOWEVER in certain situations there will be exceptions, and so it is more of a matter of "to what degree/extent" would it be better in such a community.

Re group/community law

You later mentioned that new members would have to abide by the community's law, thus by your own admission, there would be some sort of law. Thus it is possible and perhaps likely there would be a law you disagreed with, hence my question.

Re contribution level (i.e. time/effort/money/resources/skills)
Re what cant you do now that you can do in such a community

The reason I asked the above questions was to understand why people seem to imply they would magically put in so much effort once they are in such a community or do things that they apparently cant do in their current communities. From the replies in this thread and past forum discussion, you will see that the answers are not reassuring, or at least, not to me.

I?d help build the community prob on weekends to be realistic maybe 25-30hours. If I wasn?t working than a lot more.

That would be impressive, but actions speak louder than words P If I did half those hours, I'd be happy.

Re how i see it running.

Well, I would first of all strongly state that I do not feel such a community is necessary, but of course, it is the ideal. And sure, we can aim for the ideal, but I am a huge fan of "be the change you wish to see in the world", thus wherever one is, they should strive to put positivity/betterment into their surroundings, e.g. neighbourhood, city, country, world. I do not see that we need our own country or anything absurd like that. If a community wishes to exist, then simply a collection of like-minded individuals living close by, migrating to a centralised location, forming a community within an existing area/city/infrastructure/etc (this happens all the time in the real world). And they are united on one thing above all else, and that is betterment. Contrary to popular opinion, AQ is quite happy to form bonds between believers and polytheists in terms of a community as long as they uphold the bond and bring forth the betterment (see chapter 9). As we can see, from this simple idea, that beliefs are not as important as many think, and serving the whole is most important. In such an environment, true happiness, growth and justice thrives.

SarahY

Most of those living in a Western country are not really limited in terms of practising their beliefs HOWEVER in certain situations there will be exceptions, and so it is more of a matter of "to what degree/extent" would it be better in such a community.

Ok it depends on the individual. Does living in such a community give one peace of mind? do they want their children to grow up in such a community with quranic values without the preconceived traditional ideas or maybe they don?t mind and possibly this community has those people but at least quranic values would be held in priority

Individually it differs, I think most people wouldn?t think the degree is high but that?s just an assumption? I?d feel better ?cos I?d stress less and as you say it?s an ideal environment so it?s better for me.

Re group/community law

You later mentioned that new members would have to abide by the community's law, thus by your own admission, there would be some sort of law. Thus it is possible and perhaps likely there would be a law you disagreed with, hence my question.

Well as a community you work together right? It?s not about following the leaders in the group. If I disagreed with a law i?d need to work out why and possibly take it up with the community if I was so serious about it.

That would be impressive, but actions speak louder than words P If I did half those hours, I'd be happy.

You?re right actions are louder than words. Thing is, it's only to ?establish/help build? the community, that wouldn?t be realistic all the time.

People are bound with their families/friends/study not many wanna relocate. Like personally currently I wouldn?t relocate till I finished studies and had some income. Why because my degree is internationally accepted it has a benefit for me. Income because it would be unwise to just go somewhere with no resources. Besides what help could I bring if I have no home/income? I?d be a burden.

Nothing magically happens you?re right. Though those like minded communities forming, I can only see it as starting something small. like not even having laws. more like people with like minds coming together and sharing views and practices together. They don?t have people in their community as a mayor or independent political group to make big law changes because they don?t have the numbers. Sure, the community doesn?t need to be just believers polytheist could be there too.

RA786

peace all,

The topic of a "Quranic community" tends to come up regularly here, generates discussion etc. and when it does, I often feel a little puzzled as to the comments/reaction. So I want to investigate some underlying things to see if I can understand it better. If I were to ask those in favour of such a community some questions, I would start with

What is your primary motive for wanting to join/form such a community?
What do you feel you can do in such a community that you cant do in the community where you live at the moment?
Let's say you join such a community, but they implement practices/law that you do not agree with, what would you do?
How far would you be willing to go to protect such a community if it existed?
If forming such a community will take time/effort, do you think the same time/effort could be better utilised, or is this not really a concern?
Is there any criteria you would stipulate for a community member to have in order for them to join?

I may think of some more questions later.

Even if you are not for such a community, feel free to answer theoretically if you wish, or if you are not for or against, you can still answer.

Islam is the Balance of Self and Community. It doesnt seem right being locked away in a small house in the middle of Nowhere Alone, Working on yourself like an avid Sufi, Because ....what good was it? You did not do anything for the cause of Humanity. You spent your entire life working on yourself.

And it is not good to Be fully Obsessed with the Dunya, wile not working at all on yourself.
A True "Islamic" Community, as Described in the Quran is One that hold the balance of Self and Community. I would want to Join this place, because It will be where I can Focus on my Community Goals and Ambitions, wile still having time for my own personal works goals and ambitions. (The Quran gives us that right)
Unfortunately, Living in the West, it is ALL about Dunya/Community 100% or Self %...no middle Ground like a "True Islamic Society".

2.I will be able to Practice my Religion Freely. With Like-minded individuals. People will Now be more Understanding when I say "I have to take a break to go do Salat." and People will also understand when I say "I dont believe in that religious doctrine".
I will be able to Live My Islamic way that I cant do here in America, and Cant do in Saudi Arabia Either.
(and everyone else too)

3.If I did not Like or Agree with their Law, Because I feel I am Right...I will debate with them to change it. If they Convince me that I was Wrong, I will Admit my faults and remain living there. If I am right but they wont change it...I'll ask myself...Is it "Really" that important to me...If it is I'll Move, and If it isnt I'll compromise and Stay.

4.Allah Says Fear Nothing But Him. If The Leaders Will Stand By my side in Battle to Defend the Homeland and Children/Wives...I too will fight to the death to defend my deen with every ounce of blood and atom in my body as humanly possible.

5.I think Time is being wasted each day that a community is not formed.
It must be a Collective thing with Masses of people and a General Consensus among the masses.
1st a General Agreement on What the Quran Even Means. Some people Cant even Agree on a single Ayat.
Education is Key, once that is done, Establishing is next.
Time is wasting...The Evil Elite are all ready 90% close to conquering the entire world while we are on this website debating whether Alcohol is Prohibited or should simply be avoided in large quantities. '( brickwall

Do not Force Others to side with your view, rather invite and debate them in the best of manners....
They must follow the Quran as the main law of the land, and not be excessive.

I know it sounds hypocritical, but I cant STAND Obnoxious people who Purposely feel so bad about themselves that they just have to be excessive in certain aspects.

Like the Girl who says "Hey, It says I ONLY need to cover my Breasts and Lengthen my Garment"...."So Ill be fully naked...except ill put a little Nipple Cover on my nipple, and wear a little G string..."
"So technically, I am Covering My Breasts and TechnicallyI am covering my Private part."

or another example...

"The Quran says Freedom of Religion huh...."...."hummmmm so my religion is Nazi-Zombie satanism, where I go around screaming obscenities." "TechnicallyI am not "Killing anyone" nor am I "Naked in public", So therefore I am allowed to do that".

It sucks living with people like that in your country/Commmunity. I dont know if that Answers any questions Lol but I just had to get that off my chest. brickwall laugh police

Omeiza

This is not a matter of choice - Believers live or struggle to live as a community. See Q1828 It is human nature.

Magnus

salaam alaykum all. Thanks brother Wakas for directing me here, thread resurrection God willing.

One of my primary motives would be to escape the man-made materialism, and turn back to nature, and natural ways of living. Because the all the chemicals, poisons and all the man-made stuff don't last. But natural stuff from nature, like for example hydrogen is far more effective as a energy, and can be recycled and does not pollute the earth.

?fasad? is certainly something we must strive to avoid. God has given us fantastic tools inside the system, and we shouldn't break it simply for comfort. As for hydrogen, that's still ?what if-technology? at this point. As a practical man (in sha Allah) I like to think more in terms of water, wind and solar power, battery banks, biofuels, recycling and so forth.

While the concept of a Quranic community is amiable, it is not practical.

It is certainly not an easy or trivial thing, and without God's help we don't have a chance of succeeding. I believe God will help us when we help ourselves. In sha Allah we can form a settled Quranic community somewhere in this world and see what happens. I can't tell you that you're wrong until I can prove it, and the only way to prove it is by doing it, God permitting.

Wakas

I haven't given the "Quranic community" concept much thought (as I am working to a different plan) but IF it were to take place, the above sounds much more practical, e.g. use a country's existing infrastructure, carve a niche, improve upon things, help and support each other etc. I personally have a very strong preference for practicality.

I totally agree here. Practical is the only way. Assuming God gives us someplace to settle, where ever that place is and what conditions and possibilities are present there will necessarily shape what the best solutions to a host of issues are. Sub-arctic wilderness and tropical sub-urbanism present entirely different practical realities. Can we trade with the ?outside? to mutual advantage? Can we farm, forage or fish? Speculation is useless, but in the end practicality must always be kept in mind, whatever the challenge is.

I agree that working together is crucial, but I do not believe we have to be physically present together to do great things.

One of the main reasons I started this thread was that I didn't understand how people thought by forming/joining such a community it would magically allow them to do the things mentioned, when in reality, they can do these things where they are. So my thinking was there must be other (perhaps deeper) reasons why people want this community and I think I know why. It is because people want to belong, it is because people want to be among their own, where they feel at home, they want to be happy, they want to feel secure, they want to feel free, to have peace, to become everything they ever dreamed of, they long for justice/truth/righteousness/love and they feel in such an environment, it will allow them to have these things.

Is this understandable? Yes, perfectly, but I cant help but think of the saying "Think global, act local."

It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness is it not? So, who is lighting candles where they are?

I look at this differently. I think we need to light that candle by building a righteous community. Then and only then can we show people what the quran decrees, instead of talk about it. I can't preach what I don't practice, and I find it difficult to practice fully where I live now.

A community like this would be a very local and modest, at least at first, but representing a global and timeless idea, God willing. You say that people can collaborate without being physically near each other. This is true, but I find that face to face interaction is so much more rewarding and conductive to sharing certain ideas, especially when dealing with other believers. It is an amazing thing to communicate instantly all over the globe, and believers should network on the internet. Great things are happening, not least in the scholarly realm, but internet activism needs a corresponding movement in physical life. Both can exist simultaneously, and both can constribute in spreading islam in complementary ways.
You see a lot of negatives. I share some of your concerns, but I also recognize how unobstructed love for God can bring out amazing things in people. The small community I live with now is absolutely amazing in it's generosity, hospitaly and spirit of sharing and collaborating. We all want to contribute, but some, or perhaps even most of us feel instictly that something is fundamentally wrong

As for belonging, or the deeper motivations, I think it's a matter of intentions. I could use my modest skills in construction working for some company with capitalistic motives or I could help build a mosque where God alone is worshipped. Surely the latter would be better, don't you agree? From a purely self-centered perspective I think I could be a productive and appreciated member of a Quranic community because I'm something of a generalist. In the western society specialism is in many ways the key to success, and a jack of all trades is a master at none. I imagine any freshly started community would provide lots of opportunity for me to work in a way I felt was constructive, for islam and for the believers. Is this egoism and arrogance or thirsting for righteousness? Only God knows, and I pray my motives are pure.

You see a lot of negatives. I share some of your concerns, but I also recognize how unobstructed love for God can bring out amazing things in people. The small community I live with now is absolutely amazing in it's generosity, hospitaly and spirit of sharing and collaborating. We all want to contribute, but some, or perhaps even most of us feel instictly that something is fundamentally wrong with how modern western city life is lived. We feel that we are forced to live by societal norms and rules that are counter-islamic.

As for commitment level, I would like to go all out. I get tired like everyone else, but I like to work hard if I believe in what I'm working for. I would be willing to emigrate to wherever if thats where other brothers and sisters were going to do something together. God willing.

Wakas

peace Magnus,

Thanks for the reply.

...or I could help build a mosque where God alone is worshipped. Surely the latter would be better, don't you agree?

No. I'm not really a fan of such buildings unless they are definitely needed.

I agree with your sentiment however.

If a mosque costs 100K to build for example, then if we imagine a pay-per-click campaign on google at ?0.05 per click, directing people to Quran based islam websites, that would be 2 million clicks. If we assume 0.5% "convert" to Quran based islam, that would be 10 000 people.

I should point out I personally do not care about "converting" people to Quran based islam, all I care about is people making informed/educated choices.

Magnus

No. I'm not really a fan of such buildings unless they are definitely needed.

salaam.

I was thinking of a hypothetical scenario, useless though it may be. Assume God has led 10-100 believers to a settling place where there are no existing houses.
First comes the construction of a work camp. Think tents and shacks, hastily erected an hopefully temporary buildings - a kitchen, hygiene facilities, storage and sleeping quarters. Next comes more permanent buildings, perhaps out of whatever materials are locally available. I think such a budding community could gain a lot by building a masjid relatively early on, before other less important structures that could be build later. If you have nothing permanent yet, I think a masjid would be "definitely needed".
sorry for the derail, I know you suggested a separate thread for practical matters.