11:119 reason for God creating us
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Salam,
When you will understand that Rahima stands for nourishment, protection and further development, then the verses are very clear
Rahima means to provide, nourish and protect a creation to develop it further as a womb does to a foetus.
Rizq comes from Razaqa which means to provide, supply and to bestow. This is thus PART of the Rahima, nourishment, it is only 1 part of Rahima, which is much more then just providing.Then, is forgiving the sin (Gafer) would be part of Rahama?
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Allah forgiveth not (the sin of) to associate with him (lies), but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this; one who associate with Allah (lies), hath strayed far, far away (from the Right). (4-116)
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salaam,
Actually, I have not found this to be a common belief in most religions especially modern ones....Unless one is speaking of Greek Mythology or Ancient Egyptian beliefs or some other ancient belief system.
This is part in almost all religions to some degree, and especially in the mind of the followers.
Arnold, you have a habit of making ABSOLUTE statements that contradict each other. To your mind, they may compliment each other.
But the fact is you say one thing IS THIS and ONLY THIS
and then in another paragraph you say something is ABSOLUTELY THUS and ONLY THUS...Have you considered the possibility that the error may not be on the part of the reader but may in fact be on the part of the author?
Relax Arnold. One does not make a fool of one's self by disagreeing especially when the one disagreeing is basing their statements on fact. ;D
sorry, but any reader would see you are mixing up things. But please give the alleged contradictions in my essay.
My disagreement is due to the fact that a good number of the English speaking population is
either
A. Not Christian
or
B. Considers themselves Christian but they are not religious and therefore they don't use Christian definitions.
and
C. We have an English Dictionary not a Christian Dictionary
If you are using the English definition of sin, then I would say that the concept of sin is definitely in the Quran.
The majority of people will approach the words in religious terms as even if they are non-religious themselves they still approach the Quran as a religious text and so automatically approach the words religiously. It is good you try to seperate them but hardly any people will do that.
This is why I avoid religious terms as
- I believe the Arabic terms are different from them and more precise.
- The majority of people will approach them religiously and thus would misunderstand the Quranic message.
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In my eyes a clearer rendition would be
Allah will not protect you against the consequences of to associate with Him , but He protects you against the consequences of other harmful things by His Will. ; one who associate with Allah (lies), hath strayed far, far away (from the Right). (4-116)
If you follow other authorities next to Gods Authority as displayed in the Quran, He cannot help you since we must decide with our own free will what to believe. And since other authorities can give false understandings of the workings of the universe, ie Divine laws, we can rather harm ourselves then protect ourselves.
But if we hold on to the Quran, we can be protect ourselves against harm by following it.
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In my eyes a clearer rendition would be
Allah will not protect you against the consequences of to associate with Him , but He protects you against the consequences of other harmful things by His Will. ; one who associate with Allah (lies), hath strayed far, far away (from the Right). (4-116)
If you follow other authorities next to Gods Authority as displayed in the Quran, He cannot help you since we must decide with our own free will what to believe. And since other authorities can give false understandings of the workings of the universe, ie Divine laws, we can rather harm ourselves then protect ourselves.
But if we hold on to the Quran, we can be protect ourselves against harm by following it.
So, you are saying that the Arabic Word "Ghafer" means "Protact" instead of "Forgive" and "Zanoob" "Harmful Things" instead of "Sins". hypno
I think your understanding is very strange, and I do not know how I can comment. But, after our long debates in this thread and the others, I can say that both of us believe in two different books; and therefore, we do not follow the same religion.
Thus, you have your Deen and I have my Deen, and God will judge between us in the Judgment Day.
Salam -
Salam Arnold,
I want to start out by saying that I have a deep respect for your research and all the work you do to help others understand the Quran and Arabic.
Even though I disagree with you about as often as I agree with you. LOL
My critisism is meant to be constructive. It is not personal. It is because I respect your intelligence that I critique your work. Please keep this in mind as you read.
Here are examples of what I am seeing....
You argue that there is NO affect of a person's deeds on the environment/universe.....
...It is a mythological concept of how their deeds effect their
environment and the universe.You also argue that there IS an affect of a person's deeds on the environment/universe....
...So any deed will only be judged on its beneficence
towards humanity (1317), or how it harms and corrupts your own personality....constant system of cause and effect creates the outcomes of your deeds and the effects of
them on your further evolution in the Universe....When a person has done a deed which has hurt his fellow men, or when a person has
done deeds which corrupts its own character....
You argue that there is NO such thing as salvation....
The main concept man has created is the concept of
salvation.The Qur?an
breaks away this man-made belief by saying not even a deed smaller than an atom will be
neglected (997- and thus completely rejecting the concept of salvation.You also argue that there IS salvation...
The Qur?an gives thus a far more practical concept then salvation, that of compensation.
When one makes a compensation....
(definition of compensation to make an appropriate and usually counterbalancing payment/deed to something/someone...in this case the counterbalance would be to one's own soul)
One achieves salvation....
(definition of salvation deliverance from the power and effects of sin)
The Qur?an presents a more logical and fair system, where mankind know
exactly what to do to redress and how to correct their mistakes.correcting one's mistakes leads to salvation or erasing the mistake....The good takes away the bad.
In the Qur?an, forgiveness stands for giving room to compensate for wrong
deeds done.Again compensation leads to salvation. (not using a Christian definition of salvation)
You state that there is NO mercy...
The concept of mercy is un-quranic.
Then you indicate Yes there is mercy....
The system of compensation have been made in a merciful way, whereby the benefiting
deeds have more weight on the universal scale then the harming ones.If there is no concept of mercy in the Quran...compensation cannot be made in a "merciful" way....
The fact is this....
I understand that what you are saying.
I can look at the overall picture and ignore the statements that negate the general message.
But then your writing would still be misunderstood by some.Here is an observation. I notice you are making "absolute" statements and then going on to disagree with these statements.
Or you make an absolute statement and then neglect to inform the reader of the definition of the word you are using in the absolute statement.An "absolute" statement is a statement that has no qualifier or exception in the statement.....
Let me give you some examples...These examples are paraphrased quotes from you.
So, instead of someone saying....an absolute statement such as....
"There is no concept of mercy in the Quran."
One would say....
"The concept of mercy in the Quran differs from a Christian concept of mercy."
The qualifier is the word "Christian." This takes away any ambiguity. And, when you go into your explanation the reader has a CLEAR concept of the idea you are presenting.
As we have discussed.... your assumption is that the English language is based on Christianity and the words have a Christian definition.
I have not found this to be true.
In fact, I have never been Christian...so to be honest there is a lot about Christianity that I am not familiar with.I'm actually learning some of these Christian beliefs from you.....LOL.
Another example....
If one says....
"The Quran completely rejects the idea of salvation."
This statement indicates the Quran rejects salvation COMPLETELY....meaning there is no trace of the idea of salvation in any of its definitive forms.
This is not true.
So one would say...
"The Christian concept of salvation is rejected in the Quran."
OR
"Salvation as it is understood by many popular belief systems is not present in the Quran."By adding qualifiers you tell the reader exactly what you mean. You basically indicate which definition of the word you are using when you use a qualifier.
Let me give you an example of why this is so important.....
If I say to you...
"There is no God but Allah, but there are many other gods."
and I ask you to agree with my statement....you cannot because in that statement I have said two conflicting things.
- There is no God but Allah. This you can agree to.
I also said...
- There are many other gods.
This you cannot agree to.
But wait...
What if I said...
"There is no God but Allah. But there are many people who think there are other gods."This you can agree to....why?
Because I qualified and identified what I meant by "there are other gods." It is not my belief to which I was referring but it is the belief of some people.
Yet, one more reason why this is important (last one lol)....
You are setting yourself up to be accurately quoted in ways that are not intended by your general message.
For instance someone who wants to debate with you on a subject (or worse an actual enemy to the Quran) can accurately quote you in ways that you did not intend.
Here is an example based on your quotes
Arnold Yasin says "There is no concept of mercy in the Quran. The concept of sin is not present in the Quran. The Quran rejects the concept of salvation."
Suppose someone new to the Quran reads this....or worse someone who is an enemy to PEACE....one can only imagine what their impression would be.
However, I have read enough of your posts and thoughts on the Quran to know that was not your intention or the general message you were trying to convey (or maybe I'm completely wrong and YOU DO mean those things in their absolute statements).
When I point out inconsistencies it is actually an attempt to try to encourage you to write in ways that cannot be misunderstood (or at least when someone quotes you out of context the quote cannot be misconstrued).
Please note I am not saying that you would be responsible for every person who misunderstands your statements or mis-uses information.
That would be ridiculous.
There will always be people who don't understand no matter what literary precautions you take.However if you qualify your statements, you can avoid many honest mis communications.
So in the example above if you had qualified your statements the only quotes someone could take from you would be...
Arnold Yasin says "The Christian concept of mercy is not in the Quran. The concept of sin as defined by Christians is not present in the Quran. The Quran rejects the concept of salvation as understood by Christianity."
And therefore no one would be able to present quotes that you did not intend because the quotes do not negate the message you were trying to convey.
Salam,
Arnab -
So, you are saying that the Arabic Word "Ghafer" means "Protact" instead of "Forgive" and "Zanoob" "Harmful Things" instead of "Sins". hypno
I think your understanding is very strange, and I do not know how I can comment. But, after our long debates in this thread and the others, I can say that both of us believe in two different books; and therefore, we do not follow the same religion.
Thus, you have your Deen and I have my Deen, and God will judge between us in the Judgment Day.
SalamGhafour comes from Mighfar, helmet. Please see the Arabic definitions
Page 405-406 under the root Ghafara. Dictionary of the Holy Quran by Abdul Mannar Omar, 2006 4th edition.It says To give protect, to cover over, shield, suppress the defect, set the affairs right. Ghafar al-Mataa means He put the goods in the bag and covered and protected them. Mighafar is a shield and helmet. Ghafr means covering with that which protects a thing from dirt. Ghafour, name of God The Protector. Page 15-16, Exposition of the Quran, Mafhum Al-Quran by G.A. Parwez. 1990. Page 57-59 Volume 6, Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane, based on Taj-Ul-Roos, 2003 2nd reprint.
Where is the word "zanoob" in verse 4116? The word I had translated with harmful things is the word which means other than/inferior to/other/ exclusively from/besides/without, and I had translated it because it interacts with Ghafara/protection. You are protected against other things which are harmful to you.
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Salaam Arnab,
You argue that there is NO affect of a person's deeds on the environment/universe.....
No, I say that their understanding of cause and effect is a mythological interpretation of cause and effect. It does not say there is NO effect, it says THEIR understanding of cause and effect is wrong/mythological/fairytale like. I am here reffering to that their understanding is flawed as they do not grasp the real understanding of cause and effect. It surprises me you misunderstand this, but ok.
You argue that there is NO such thing as salvation....
You also argue that there IS salvation...
No, it says the Qur'an contains a far BETTER system then salvation, that of compensation. So it still rejects salvation as salvation is believed by 90% of the people on earth to be attained through rituals and pleasing God. This has nothing to do with Christianity alone. Almost all religions believe this in their own way. When using the word salvation 90% of the world population will not believe this is done by compensation of deeds, but by belief and worship.
Your so-called these "are English definitions" are useless since it matters what people have in their heads of definitions.
You state that there is NO mercy...
Then you indicate Yes there is mercy....
If there is no concept of mercy in the Quran...compensation cannot be made in a "merciful" way....
There is a big difference between mercy of neglecting sins (as is the definition in all religious understandings) as meant in the first sentence, and something made with ease as how I used the concept here in the second sentence. )
Dear Arnab, I thank you for your comments but I always lay out my understandings in full detail, your examples and suggestions are not needed when people use their brain and read the whole text with footnotes, then it all becomes very clear since I explain what I mean step by step. If you think I should write better or more clearer, then please write your own articles and essays instead of commenting on others about stupid little strawman arguments as this. I do not mean to offend or be ungrateful to your intentions as I do appreciate it, but I think this is a very childish discussion since we are talking here about YOUR opinion that I am not clear enough in your eyes and believe people will misunderstand while till now I never had any real complaints or seen such things as your proclaim, it is even the opposite where I get many mails and calls how easy and clear I write!
Also I believe your argument of saying we must use "English terms" is pointless as 90% of ALL people will use the religious understandings of the terms whatever the dictionaries say. So I refuse to use those terms since they are exactly the ones who create the misunderstandings! Plus, the Arabic definitions do not mean "forgivenes, sin etc", they have a far more interesting and secular meanings as layed out again and again.
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Interesting thread. I think the article lays out the authors' reasoning and premises as well as can be expected to an audience thinking in depth. I can also see Arnab's points, and her suggestions might be used in a summarised/condensed version of the article if and when it's updated. Peace.
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Salaam Arnab,
Your so-called these "are English definitions" are useless since it matters what people have in their heads of definitions.
It seems that you are not going to give up your pre-concieved notions of ASSUMING what people think before asking them and you seem to completely disregard that the majority of English speakers do not see it this way. brickwall
Dear Arnab, I thank you for your comments but I always lay out my understandings in full detail, your examples and suggestions are not needed when people use their brain and read the whole text with footnotes, then it all becomes very clear since I explain what I mean step by step. If you think I should write better or more clearer, then please write your own articles and essays instead of commenting on others about stupid little strawman arguments as this.
I do not mean to offend or be ungrateful to your intentions as I do appreciate it, but I think this is a very childish discussion since we are talking here about YOUR opinion that I am not clear enough in your eyes and believe people will misunderstandWow, you claim you don't want to offend me or seem ungrateful but at the same time you call me childish and stupid and imply that I don't use my brain. Then that comment of being grateful and not wanting to offend is lie wrapped in insults.
Why is it you always result to name calling? I've noticed you do that in other posts. And up until now I have not commented on your calling me personally names in other posts. But I have to say that this behaviour is not helpful.
Especially when people are being respectful to you.
This is not behavior that the Quran teaches us, thats for sure.while till now I never had any real complaints or seen such things as your proclaim, it is even the opposite where I get many mails and calls how easy and clear I write!
All I am seeing is EGO giveup
Salam,
Arnab -
Salam Arnab,
It seems that you are not going to give up your pre-concieved notions of ASSUMING what people think before asking them and you seem to completely disregard that the majority of English speakers do not see it this way.
This is based on my reasoning of what people think, whether english speakers or not after long studying Theology, religions and asking people so there is no assumption but a conclusion of an observation after researching.
I didnt call you or anybody else any names ever on this forum and you know this, here I was only referring to the arguments not the person. I apologise for sounding exasperated but since I dont see any solid rebutalls except a few points, all I can see is this argument going in circles...
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Ghafour comes from Mighfar, helmet. Please see the Arabic definitions
Page 405-406 under the root Ghafara. Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an by Abdul Mannar Omar, 2006 4th edition.It says [b, to cover over
So, why do you not use COVER OVER, which means COVER OVER THE SINS, which means "FOEGIVE".
Where is the word "zanoob" in verse 4116?
rotfl
I knew you would say that. 4-116, the word "DOON", which means other than that Sin "to associate with God". In other words, other sins than that sin.
Well if you want a verse that has the word Zanoob, her is it
(
And those who having done something to be ashamed of, or wronged their own souls earnestly bring Allah to mind; and ask for forgiveness for their sins,and who can forgive sins except Allah?,And are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done. (3-135)
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So, why do you not use COVER OVER, which means COVER OVER THE SINS, which means "FOEGIVE".
Because the covering was meant to protect it against, and the protection is activated by 11114, the compensation. Yeah sure you knew that
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Peace all
Just wanted to know what you all thought of this verse. The first section of it that is
"Except whom your Lord has mercy upon; and for that he has created them."
What other meanings could be ascribed to the use of the word Rahm in this verse?Peace,
Respectfully.God knows best.
I would say that God has created us to worship Him and that He is THe Most Merciful and also that He is TRULY The Most Merciful and shows us every single day just how Merciful He is He is giving us so much every single second and yet most people won't be thankful.That's why we must be grateful to God and glorify Him all the time.
Glory be to our God.Peace.
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Salam. This verse "Except whom your Lord has mercy upon; and for that he has created them." relates to many statements made by Allah. The first implication is that this relates to the creation event. Usually the use of the term "except" indicates there is a prior statement of a "general rule" An examination of Hud at 11118 shows the following "And if your Lord had pleased, He would have made people a single nation. And they cease not to differ" My Lord could have if he wished, made all of us a single nation, a nation of Muslims, however, this would not have prevented people from differing.
Here is where the exception comes into play, the exception is those upon whom my Lord has mercy, and he has created them not to differ, this is his mercy.
These verses describe a hypothetical situation to assist us in understanding our Lord's actions and mercy. Let us suppose we ask our Lord "Oh Lord why did you go through all this, for if you wished you could have made us all Muslims at birth" Our Lord's answer is even if he had made all of us Muslims at birth we would still differ. An examination of the Muslim community shows this statement to be correct.
There is a mercy in the exception, our Lord is teaching us that when he has mercy on us we will cease differing. Inshallah Muslims will cease differing because they seek our Lord's mercy.
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God's mercy is also allowing us to live out our lives and doing what God knows what we are going to do anyway. He knows where we will end up on the Day of Reckoning. God says several times if were not for a preordained word...there would not be a single being on the face of the Earth. God could have easily showed Himself, resulting in the destruction of everything on Earth, resurrected it all as a new creation and sent us to Jannah or Jahannah. But we would say on that Day, but you didn't let me prove I was going to be a disbeliever? If I was given the chance, I would truly be among the guided! But we know as it says in the Qur'an even after they have disbelieved AFTER free choice to do whatever they want, they will say no guidance came, if it came directly to them they would be truly guided! but the disbelievers will make endless excuses, even when their lives were extended for time and they were provided with comforts and provisions to share with others on Earth, and given sharp senses, a wondrous brain and compassionate, strong hearts. There are some who are born limited and burdened, but God is the most Just of Judges, its up to Him. God is most merciful, he has allowed us to live out our lives and see the choices for ourselves, God says several times he truly created us for a purpose and not a playtime. He has allowed us to enjoy our lives for a while and to do what we see as the path for us, but there are times when God does intervene and destroy communities, to make examples out of them, but only after a messenger has been sent or warning, and it has been so for every community on the face of the Earth, so there will be no intercession with God on that grievous Day. God will be most just and merciful. And God truly knows where we deserve to go in the end.
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You forgot to comment on 3-135, so you can tell me what the arabic word "Znoob" Means.
Peace,
Dhunub means offenses, crimes or misdeeds. It is from Dhanaba which means to track, to add something or follow something. Adhnaba means to commit an offence, to fault. Dhanb is doing something that will create an evil result.
3135 And those who, if they do a vile deed (fahishah) or do wrong to themselves by misplacing (zalamu=to displace something, to do wrong, oppress), they call to mind Allah (Dzikr Allah=to remind Allah's Authority and commands) and they seek protection against their offenses (istaghfaru=they sought protection, ghafara=to protect as a helmet), and who can protect against the consequences (yaghfiru) of crimes (Dhunub) except Allah (through His system of compensation 11114) and do not persist (yusirru from sarra=to tie up, to be caught up in it) while they have the knowledge (hum/they ya-alamuna/know).
The verse is very clear, it describes how Tauba (=to realize a wrong path is taken and to return to the right way) works
- A person did a something wrong to society and thus themselves=fahishah and/or zalamu.
- They are reminded of what Allah has explained in the Quran and how every act has a consequence=Dzikr Allah. The Quran is called Dhikro in 1644.
- They seek protection against the consequences of their deeds=istaghfaru since no deed is left uncompensated 325.
- And Allah always during this life gives a person the ability to protect himself by compensating for the wrong that was done as explained in 11114 where the Al-Hassanat/Good deeds will remove the wrong deeds/As-Sayyi done.
- And they are protected as long as they keep on the right path and not persist in doing wrong=Yusirru
- As they have the knowledge of the wrongness of their behaviour since only people who have knowledge of the Divine laws are held responsible by Allah, see 6131.
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Because the covering was meant to protect it against, and the protection is activated by 11114, the compensation. Yeah sure you knew that
(
And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night for those things that are good remove those that are evil be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord) (11-114)
So, any person needs to do enuogh Good in order to cover all his evil doings (Sins), in order to be forgiven by God? And thus, according to your opinion, there is no Forgivness by God.
If that is the Case, no one will Enter Heaven; no one can do enough Good to Cover his Sins.If that is your understanding (what you want), then you are rejecting God's Mercy and depending on your Good Deeds; GOOD LUCK!
wow -
(
And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night for those things that are good remove those that are evil be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord) (11-114)
So, any person needs to do enuogh Good in order to cover all his evil doings (Sins), in order to be forgiven by God? And thus, according to your opinion, there is no Forgivness by God.
If that is the Case, no one will Enter Heaven; no one can do enough Good to Cover his Sins.If that is your understanding (what you want), then you are rejecting God's Mercy and depending on your Good Deeds; GOOD LUCK!
- He who does a good deed will receive ten times its worth; and he who does evil will be only requited to an equal degree of that evil; and no one will be wronged.
4146 Whoever does good to others, does good to his own self, and whoever causes imbalance in the lives of others, hurts his own self. Your Developer is never unjust to His servants.
2361-62 It is those who race with one another to improve the quality of life for humanity, and it is those who outstrip others in reward. We do not burden any human being with more than he or she is able to bear. And with Us is a Record that speaks the truth (about what you can and cannot do). And so, none shall be wronged.
996-8 On that Day will all people come forth as separate entities, to be shown their deeds. Then whoever has done an atom's weight of good, will see it. And whoever has done an atom's weight of evil, will see it.
It is always scary in the beginning when one is shown that all responsibility lays at their own feet. But God shows through the Qur'an how we can become Sabiqun, the ones that outstrip everyone else be doing good to others and reform society (salaha). God is not a tyrant king, but He is also not an unjust God, so every deed must have a consequence otherwise there would be no use for reward or recompense, no learning, no development through one own's works. It is part of growing up and accept full responsibility for all that you do. As long as you stay away from the major evils of oppression or hurting other people and do good to society then you do not need to worry.
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As long as you stay away from the major evils of oppression or hurting other people and do good to society then you do not need to worry.
I agree, but that is not what you stated before
- And Allah always during this life gives a person the ability to protect himself by compensating for the wrong that was done as explained in 11114 where the Al-Hassanat/Good deeds will remove the wrong deeds/As-Sayyi done.
(
To Allah belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. Whether ye show what is in your minds or conceal it, Allah calleth you to account for it. He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and punisheth whom He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things. (2-284)That is what we ask for, His Forgiveness (and not depend on our Good Deeds)
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They said "our Lord! we have wronged our own souls if Thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy we shall certainly be lost." (11-23)(٦
He prayed "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul! Do Thou then forgive me!" So (Allah) forgave him for He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (28-16)