11:119 reason for God creating us

arnoldyasin

So, you are saying that the Arabic Word "Ghafer" means "Protact" instead of "Forgive" and "Zanoob" "Harmful Things" instead of "Sins". hypno

I think your understanding is very strange, and I do not know how I can comment. But, after our long debates in this thread and the others, I can say that both of us believe in two different books; and therefore, we do not follow the same religion.
Thus, you have your Deen and I have my Deen, and God will judge between us in the Judgment Day.
Salam

Ghafour comes from Mighfar, helmet. Please see the Arabic definitions

Page 405-406 under the root Ghafara. Dictionary of the Holy Quran by Abdul Mannar Omar, 2006 4th edition.It says To give protect, to cover over, shield, suppress the defect, set the affairs right. Ghafar al-Mataa means He put the goods in the bag and covered and protected them. Mighafar is a shield and helmet. Ghafr means covering with that which protects a thing from dirt. Ghafour, name of God The Protector. Page 15-16, Exposition of the Quran, Mafhum Al-Quran by G.A. Parwez. 1990. Page 57-59 Volume 6, Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane, based on Taj-Ul-Roos, 2003 2nd reprint.

Where is the word "zanoob" in verse 4116? The word I had translated with harmful things is the word which means other than/inferior to/other/ exclusively from/besides/without, and I had translated it because it interacts with Ghafara/protection. You are protected against other things which are harmful to you.

arnoldyasin

Salaam Arnab,

You argue that there is NO affect of a person's deeds on the environment/universe.....

No, I say that their understanding of cause and effect is a mythological interpretation of cause and effect. It does not say there is NO effect, it says THEIR understanding of cause and effect is wrong/mythological/fairytale like. I am here reffering to that their understanding is flawed as they do not grasp the real understanding of cause and effect. It surprises me you misunderstand this, but ok.

You argue that there is NO such thing as salvation....

You also argue that there IS salvation...

No, it says the Qur'an contains a far BETTER system then salvation, that of compensation. So it still rejects salvation as salvation is believed by 90% of the people on earth to be attained through rituals and pleasing God. This has nothing to do with Christianity alone. Almost all religions believe this in their own way. When using the word salvation 90% of the world population will not believe this is done by compensation of deeds, but by belief and worship.

Your so-called these "are English definitions" are useless since it matters what people have in their heads of definitions.

You state that there is NO mercy...

Then you indicate Yes there is mercy....

If there is no concept of mercy in the Quran...compensation cannot be made in a "merciful" way....

There is a big difference between mercy of neglecting sins (as is the definition in all religious understandings) as meant in the first sentence, and something made with ease as how I used the concept here in the second sentence. )

Dear Arnab, I thank you for your comments but I always lay out my understandings in full detail, your examples and suggestions are not needed when people use their brain and read the whole text with footnotes, then it all becomes very clear since I explain what I mean step by step. If you think I should write better or more clearer, then please write your own articles and essays instead of commenting on others about stupid little strawman arguments as this. I do not mean to offend or be ungrateful to your intentions as I do appreciate it, but I think this is a very childish discussion since we are talking here about YOUR opinion that I am not clear enough in your eyes and believe people will misunderstand while till now I never had any real complaints or seen such things as your proclaim, it is even the opposite where I get many mails and calls how easy and clear I write!

Also I believe your argument of saying we must use "English terms" is pointless as 90% of ALL people will use the religious understandings of the terms whatever the dictionaries say. So I refuse to use those terms since they are exactly the ones who create the misunderstandings! Plus, the Arabic definitions do not mean "forgivenes, sin etc", they have a far more interesting and secular meanings as layed out again and again.

savage_carrot

Interesting thread. I think the article lays out the authors' reasoning and premises as well as can be expected to an audience thinking in depth. I can also see Arnab's points, and her suggestions might be used in a summarised/condensed version of the article if and when it's updated. Peace.

unknownuser

Salaam Arnab,

Your so-called these "are English definitions" are useless since it matters what people have in their heads of definitions.

It seems that you are not going to give up your pre-concieved notions of ASSUMING what people think before asking them and you seem to completely disregard that the majority of English speakers do not see it this way. brickwall

Dear Arnab, I thank you for your comments but I always lay out my understandings in full detail, your examples and suggestions are not needed when people use their brain and read the whole text with footnotes, then it all becomes very clear since I explain what I mean step by step. If you think I should write better or more clearer, then please write your own articles and essays instead of commenting on others about stupid little strawman arguments as this.
I do not mean to offend or be ungrateful to your intentions as I do appreciate it, but I think this is a very childish discussion since we are talking here about YOUR opinion that I am not clear enough in your eyes and believe people will misunderstand

Wow, you claim you don't want to offend me or seem ungrateful but at the same time you call me childish and stupid and imply that I don't use my brain. Then that comment of being grateful and not wanting to offend is lie wrapped in insults.

Why is it you always result to name calling? I've noticed you do that in other posts. And up until now I have not commented on your calling me personally names in other posts. But I have to say that this behaviour is not helpful.
Especially when people are being respectful to you.
This is not behavior that the Quran teaches us, thats for sure.

while till now I never had any real complaints or seen such things as your proclaim, it is even the opposite where I get many mails and calls how easy and clear I write!

All I am seeing is EGO giveup

Salam,
Arnab

arnoldyasin

Salam Arnab,

It seems that you are not going to give up your pre-concieved notions of ASSUMING what people think before asking them and you seem to completely disregard that the majority of English speakers do not see it this way.

This is based on my reasoning of what people think, whether english speakers or not after long studying Theology, religions and asking people so there is no assumption but a conclusion of an observation after researching.

I didnt call you or anybody else any names ever on this forum and you know this, here I was only referring to the arguments not the person. I apologise for sounding exasperated but since I dont see any solid rebutalls except a few points, all I can see is this argument going in circles...

belH

Ghafour comes from Mighfar, helmet. Please see the Arabic definitions

Page 405-406 under the root Ghafara. Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an by Abdul Mannar Omar, 2006 4th edition.It says [b, to cover over

So, why do you not use COVER OVER, which means COVER OVER THE SINS, which means "FOEGIVE".

Where is the word "zanoob" in verse 4116?

rotfl

I knew you would say that. 4-116, the word "DOON", which means other than that Sin "to associate with God". In other words, other sins than that sin.

Well if you want a verse that has the word Zanoob, her is it

(&#65279

And those who having done something to be ashamed of, or wronged their own souls earnestly bring Allah to mind; and ask for forgiveness for their sins,and who can forgive sins except Allah?,And are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done. (3-135)

arnoldyasin

So, why do you not use COVER OVER, which means COVER OVER THE SINS, which means "FOEGIVE".

Because the covering was meant to protect it against, and the protection is activated by 11114, the compensation. Yeah sure you knew that

Alen

Peace all
Just wanted to know what you all thought of this verse. The first section of it that is
"Except whom your Lord has mercy upon; and for that he has created them."
What other meanings could be ascribed to the use of the word Rahm in this verse?

Peace,
Respectfully.

God knows best.
I would say that God has created us to worship Him and that He is THe Most Merciful and also that He is TRULY The Most Merciful and shows us every single day just how Merciful He is He is giving us so much every single second and yet most people won't be thankful.

That's why we must be grateful to God and glorify Him all the time.
Glory be to our God.

Peace.

Al_Araf

Salam. This verse "Except whom your Lord has mercy upon; and for that he has created them." relates to many statements made by Allah. The first implication is that this relates to the creation event. Usually the use of the term "except" indicates there is a prior statement of a "general rule" An examination of Hud at 11118 shows the following "And if your Lord had pleased, He would have made people a single nation. And they cease not to differ" My Lord could have if he wished, made all of us a single nation, a nation of Muslims, however, this would not have prevented people from differing.

Here is where the exception comes into play, the exception is those upon whom my Lord has mercy, and he has created them not to differ, this is his mercy.

These verses describe a hypothetical situation to assist us in understanding our Lord's actions and mercy. Let us suppose we ask our Lord "Oh Lord why did you go through all this, for if you wished you could have made us all Muslims at birth" Our Lord's answer is even if he had made all of us Muslims at birth we would still differ. An examination of the Muslim community shows this statement to be correct.

There is a mercy in the exception, our Lord is teaching us that when he has mercy on us we will cease differing. Inshallah Muslims will cease differing because they seek our Lord's mercy.

Soof

God's mercy is also allowing us to live out our lives and doing what God knows what we are going to do anyway. He knows where we will end up on the Day of Reckoning. God says several times if were not for a preordained word...there would not be a single being on the face of the Earth. God could have easily showed Himself, resulting in the destruction of everything on Earth, resurrected it all as a new creation and sent us to Jannah or Jahannah. But we would say on that Day, but you didn't let me prove I was going to be a disbeliever? If I was given the chance, I would truly be among the guided! But we know as it says in the Qur'an even after they have disbelieved AFTER free choice to do whatever they want, they will say no guidance came, if it came directly to them they would be truly guided! but the disbelievers will make endless excuses, even when their lives were extended for time and they were provided with comforts and provisions to share with others on Earth, and given sharp senses, a wondrous brain and compassionate, strong hearts. There are some who are born limited and burdened, but God is the most Just of Judges, its up to Him. God is most merciful, he has allowed us to live out our lives and see the choices for ourselves, God says several times he truly created us for a purpose and not a playtime. He has allowed us to enjoy our lives for a while and to do what we see as the path for us, but there are times when God does intervene and destroy communities, to make examples out of them, but only after a messenger has been sent or warning, and it has been so for every community on the face of the Earth, so there will be no intercession with God on that grievous Day. God will be most just and merciful. And God truly knows where we deserve to go in the end.

belH

Because the covering was meant to protect it against, and the protection is activated by 11114, the compensation. Yeah sure you knew that

You forgot to comment on 3-135, so you can tell me what the arabic word "Znoob" Means.

arnoldyasin

You forgot to comment on 3-135, so you can tell me what the arabic word "Znoob" Means.

Peace,

Dhunub means offenses, crimes or misdeeds. It is from Dhanaba which means to track, to add something or follow something. Adhnaba means to commit an offence, to fault. Dhanb is doing something that will create an evil result.

3135 And those who, if they do a vile deed (fahishah) or do wrong to themselves by misplacing (zalamu=to displace something, to do wrong, oppress), they call to mind Allah (Dzikr Allah=to remind Allah's Authority and commands) and they seek protection against their offenses (istaghfaru=they sought protection, ghafara=to protect as a helmet), and who can protect against the consequences (yaghfiru) of crimes (Dhunub) except Allah (through His system of compensation 11114) and do not persist (yusirru from sarra=to tie up, to be caught up in it) while they have the knowledge (hum/they ya-alamuna/know).

The verse is very clear, it describes how Tauba (=to realize a wrong path is taken and to return to the right way) works

A person did a something wrong to society and thus themselves=fahishah and/or zalamu.
They are reminded of what Allah has explained in the Quran and how every act has a consequence=Dzikr Allah. The Quran is called Dhikro in 1644.
They seek protection against the consequences of their deeds=istaghfaru since no deed is left uncompensated 325.
And Allah always during this life gives a person the ability to protect himself by compensating for the wrong that was done as explained in 11114 where the Al-Hassanat/Good deeds will remove the wrong deeds/As-Sayyi done.
And they are protected as long as they keep on the right path and not persist in doing wrong=Yusirru
As they have the knowledge of the wrongness of their behaviour since only people who have knowledge of the Divine laws are held responsible by Allah, see 6131.

belH

Because the covering was meant to protect it against, and the protection is activated by 11114, the compensation. Yeah sure you knew that

(&#65279

And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night for those things that are good remove those that are evil be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord) (11-114)

So, any person needs to do enuogh Good in order to cover all his evil doings (Sins), in order to be forgiven by God? And thus, according to your opinion, there is no Forgivness by God.
If that is the Case, no one will Enter Heaven; no one can do enough Good to Cover his Sins.

If that is your understanding (what you want), then you are rejecting God's Mercy and depending on your Good Deeds; GOOD LUCK!
wow

arnoldyasin

(&#65279

And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night for those things that are good remove those that are evil be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord) (11-114)

So, any person needs to do enuogh Good in order to cover all his evil doings (Sins), in order to be forgiven by God? And thus, according to your opinion, there is no Forgivness by God.
If that is the Case, no one will Enter Heaven; no one can do enough Good to Cover his Sins.

If that is your understanding (what you want), then you are rejecting God's Mercy and depending on your Good Deeds; GOOD LUCK!

He who does a good deed will receive ten times its worth; and he who does evil will be only requited to an equal degree of that evil; and no one will be wronged.

4146 Whoever does good to others, does good to his own self, and whoever causes imbalance in the lives of others, hurts his own self. Your Developer is never unjust to His servants.

2361-62 It is those who race with one another to improve the quality of life for humanity, and it is those who outstrip others in reward. We do not burden any human being with more than he or she is able to bear. And with Us is a Record that speaks the truth (about what you can and cannot do). And so, none shall be wronged.

996-8 On that Day will all people come forth as separate entities, to be shown their deeds. Then whoever has done an atom's weight of good, will see it. And whoever has done an atom's weight of evil, will see it.

It is always scary in the beginning when one is shown that all responsibility lays at their own feet. But God shows through the Qur'an how we can become Sabiqun, the ones that outstrip everyone else be doing good to others and reform society (salaha). God is not a tyrant king, but He is also not an unjust God, so every deed must have a consequence otherwise there would be no use for reward or recompense, no learning, no development through one own's works. It is part of growing up and accept full responsibility for all that you do. As long as you stay away from the major evils of oppression or hurting other people and do good to society then you do not need to worry.

belH

As long as you stay away from the major evils of oppression or hurting other people and do good to society then you do not need to worry.

I agree, but that is not what you stated before

And Allah always during this life gives a person the ability to protect himself by compensating for the wrong that was done as explained in 11114 where the Al-Hassanat/Good deeds will remove the wrong deeds/As-Sayyi done.

(&#65279
To Allah belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. Whether ye show what is in your minds or conceal it, Allah calleth you to account for it. He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and punisheth whom He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things. (2-284)

That is what we ask for, His Forgiveness (and not depend on our Good Deeds)

(&#1635
They said "our Lord! we have wronged our own souls if Thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy we shall certainly be lost." (11-23)

(&#1638
He prayed "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul! Do Thou then forgive me!" So (Allah) forgave him for He is the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (28-16)

arnoldyasin

Peace,

I agree, but that is not what you stated before

I have always stated this in every single post. One must do good to society (salaha/hassanat), and if you do not commit any wrongs in society, then the path is easy for you. But if you have done wrong to society, then you must compensate your evil by doing extra good to society.

(&#65279
To Allah belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth. Whether ye show what is in your minds or conceal it, Allah calleth you to account for it. He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and punisheth whom He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things. (2-284)

That is what we ask for, His Forgiveness (and not depend on our Good Deeds)

Your statement contradicts the Qur'an, it are our deeds which determine our judgement, otherwise why is there any reason for judgement? This makes God a tyrant deity who does what he wants as a dictator like Saddam.

The Qur'an says our deeds will give us the reward or punishment

2147 We will set up the scales of justice on the Day of Resurrection,
and no person will be wronged in the least. Though the good or evil be
of the weight of a mustard seed, We will bring it forth. We are Sufficient
for reckoning and none can take account as We do.

78 The scales on that Day will be truly equitable. Those whose
constructive deeds are heavy, will prosper.

79 And those whose scales are light, will be the ones who have put
their own ?self? in loss. ...

So although God can ofcourse do as He pleases He also will always keep His promises as He made above. So His Will in the Qur'an does not mean He would punish even though you deserve reward, nor will He reward you when you deserve punishment, His Will is expressed in the above verses, He will protect you against the consequences of your wrong deeds if you have done more good then bad, but He will punish you if you have done more bad then good.

I suggest you to first study the concept of God's Will (yasha) before presenting these kind of verses.

The root of the word MASHIYYAT is sh-y-?a. It is usually rendered as ?wishing, willing or desiring?. Some scholastic theologians do not distinguish it from IRAADA though they are said to be originally different. In the original language, al-mashiyyatu signifies ?the causing to be or exist?. IRAADA is more synonymous with TALAB (i.e. willing or desiring) while Mashiyyat is more synonymous with EEJAAD (causing to be or exist). The dictionaries of classical Arabic render mashiyyat in the following meanings

-causing to be

-causing to exist

-rendering

-necessitating

-making (something) happen, compelling or constraining

-betaking or having recourse to

-wishing, willing or desiring

The root of the word SHAY and Mashiyyat is same. A SHAY is

whatever is caused to be, whether sensibly, as material substances or ideally, as sayings OR anything that has been made to have a beings, whether an accident, an attribute, or a substance

From the above, it can be seen that IRADA denotes INTENTION (or conception of a thing in mind) while MASHIYYAT denotes CAUSATION. From time perspective, IRADA precedes MASHIYYAT. Before there is a SHAY, there is IRADA.

Although IRADA and MASHIYYAT can be used synonymously but there come some instances when a distinction between these two terms becomes very important and these must be rendered distinctly to avoid confusion.

The most important example of this is when these two terms are used in the Quran in relation to Allah, the Creator. At the stage of IRADA or intention or conception (before causation), Allah does whatever He intends. He defines rules, criteria and measures etc. He decrees how things ought to be. We do not know and cannot know why He defines rules, criteria and measures as they are and why he decrees things the way He decrees. He brings about whatever He intends {yaf?alo ma yureed} . He ordains or decrees whatever He intends

At this stage, when He intends a thing, , He says unto it Be! ? and it is . This is the stage when He decrees a matter or an affair . This has also been termed as His ?AMR? . At this stage, there is no CAUSATION and Allah brings about things without any CAUSE. This is the stage when LAW OF UNIVERSAL CAUSATION, itself, is decreed by Allah.

After the stage of ?INTENTION? or ?AMR? or ?IRADA?, the stage of ?CAUSATION? or ?MASHIYYAT? comes into effect. At this stage, everything happens according to WHAT ALLAH?S LAW OF UNIVERSAL CAUSATION NECESSITATES.

So when the phrase ?yaf?alo ma yureed? will be used for Allah, this will be rendered as ?He does or brings about whatever He intends? and when the phrase ?yaf?alo ma yshaa? will be used, it would be better rendered as, ?He does or brings about what His Law of Causation necessitates?. There is a subtle but very important difference between the two, i.e. for MASHIYYAT, law of causation holds (and everything happens according to the law of cause and effect as defined by Allah) while for IRADA (when used in contrast to MASHIYYAT), Allah brings about things without any cause or pre-existing rule.

http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/mashiyyat.htm
http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/law-shaa.htm

belH