Common problems associated with the "salat" issue
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Verse 124 is allegorical and emphasizes the obedience that everything in the universe has for Allah.
Ignoring the fact that it wasn't even on about obedience to Allah.... since a physical prostration doesn't make sense, it must be allegorical? Fair enough, I already knew it wasn't a physical prostration. Do you also know that it says Joseph used his "raayt" for this? "raayt" is primarily used to mean see with the eyes. How does one see a planet prostrate? I will leave that discrepancy for you to concern yourself with.
Why didn't you comment on the rest? Is it because it disproves your view?This doesn't change the fact that sujud means prostration and that this was how the Quraish understood the word.
You talk much but evidence little.
To say "recite the Quran and recite the Quran" is quite peculiar.
Erm, maybe that's because it doesn't literally say that. Read it again.
I'm going to be blunt in saying that it doesn't matter how the Quran uses a word. What matters is the meaning that the people it was revealed to give its words. If the Quran gives different meanings to the Arabic words of the Quraish then the problem isn't the Quraish, its the Quran.
Thanks for being blunt. I believe our discussion is over.
I don't care much for some of the conspiracy theories that would need to be proposed to claim otherwise.
Is it still a conspiracy if Al Quran uses words hundreds of times and it never means what you want it to mean? How many times does AQ have to use the words to convince you? A thousand? Million? Billion? I will leave that for you to concern yourself with.
SHAKIR What has happened to you? How do you judge? Or have you a book wherein you read, that you have surely therein what you choose?
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Peace Bubbles
I love to discuss and share knowledge and learn from people. However, i think your opinions on Salaat is thread too different and it seems like we won't come to a conclusion. My style is that i like to come to a conclusion, an understanding that is based on reality, logic and facts. My time is valuable and i don't discuss just to discuss. I discuss to reach a conclusion. Something is either false or true, not both it. Therefore facts, objectivity and constructiveness is very important for me.
We should Never ignore Reality, cause Reality has teeths, it bites
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I think you are an intelligent women, but you conjecture much, and dismiss proofs and logic. On some issues you are in denial of reality. You conjecture and follow what you feel is right (Subjectiveness), rather than following reality(Objectiveness).
You haven't given me any proofs to consider. I am not in denial about anything I just want to understand why anyone would think that salat isn't prayer. My initial intention wasn't to disprove anyone, it was to dispel some of the issues that I had regarding salat based on the Quran alone. Instead you're saying I'm in denial, without proving me wrong with your logic, facts and proofs. You believe in some wacky conspiracy theories about Christianity corrupting Islam and causing the Arabs to misunderstand salat, but you haven't provided any evidence for that.
My rule is that if i am going to discuss with someone on an issue, they should bring proofs that can back up their claims. If someone claims too much without having evidence/proofs to back up their claims (Historical, Quranical or Scientifical proofs), THEN i won't discuss further with them on an issue. I don't like when people ignore facts. We should never think we know everything or we are always right. Humbleness is an important trait many persons need to learn. Since we can't come to an agrement on this issue(Salat), i think we should just agree to disagree )
I'm tired of this discussion also, I guess that leaves me in the same position I started in.
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Ignoring the fact that it wasn't even on about obedience to Allah.... since a physical prostration doesn't make sense, it must be allegorical? Fair enough, I already knew it wasn't a physical prostration. Do you also know that it says Joseph used his "raayt" for this? "raayt" is primarily used to mean see with the eyes. How does one see a planet prostrate? I will leave that discrepancy for you to concern yourself with.
Why didn't you comment on the rest? Is it because it disproves your view?At the moment I would be more willing to accept that the Quran uses the word incorrectly than to believe that sujud doesn't literally mean prostration. You've given me no reason to believe that sujud means anything else. What Joseph saw was from a dream anyway so he didn't actually see any stars prostrating. 126, "Thus, your Lord will select you, teach you the interpretation of dreams, and grant His favors to you and the family of Jacob, just as He granted His favors to your fathers, Abraham and Isaac. Your Lord is certainly All-knowing and All-wise."
The reason I didn't comment on the other verses you referenced is because I didn't actually check them. I assumed it was similar to 124 and I don't have the willpower to check every single reference you give. I've already read so many of the articles you've given and I'm getting rather tired of this now.
You talk much but evidence little.
Classical Arabic dictionaries? Hadiths? Historians? Scholars of Arabic? To disagree with all of them would require some kind of conspiracy theory. Do you believe that the Quraish understood salat to not mean prayer? If that is the case do you think that Bukhari just popped up 200 years later and convinced all the Arabs that they were wrong and changed the meaning of salat?
Erm, maybe that's because it doesn't literally say that. Read it again.
brickwall I think I realise that.
Thanks for being blunt. I believe our discussion is over.
Alhamdulilah
Is it still a conspiracy if Al Quran uses words hundreds of times and it never means what you want it to mean? How many times does AQ have to use the words to convince you? A thousand? Million? Billion? I will leave that for you to concern yourself with.
SHAKIR What has happened to you? How do you judge? Or have you a book wherein you read, that you have surely therein what you choose?
Why do you believe the Quran is divinely inspired anyway? If every single word in the Quran is under scrutiny and we cannot be sure what the meanings of certain words are, what reason would I have for believing that the Arabic used in it is beautiful? If Muhammed's history is irrelevant why should I believe that he wasn't a power hungry liar?
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Peace be upon you,
The God does not shy from similitudes. In 2008, are people still following the idea that GOD is some old man in the sky that must be literally bowed and prostrated to? And what do those postures do for your character? Wouldnt it be better to just to submit to the laws of the created universe?
I havent read this entire thread, but has the question arose about how one can enter the gate prostrating?
Also the believers prostrate upon hearing the word of God...does that mean when I am crossing the expressway and I hear the word of God, I must get on the ground? Wouldnt it be more effective to adjust your character to what you hear? Can you not see the wisdom of that simiitude of "prostration" meaning taking the information and using it?
Have the millions of people who physically prostrate changed the character of thier group? Or is it the group who "mentally prostrates" that has more success?
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Peace,
Respectfully.To brother God Within
The Exalted God AllPowerful, The Most Just, does not need us, our prayers nor prostrations or our following or not following His Law.
God exists, regardless of some movements on this tiny little planet, which He can make go away in a single word"Be" and it happens, it's gone.God AllPowerful wants us to obey Him.
If we obey God, we are rewarded with Paradise, if not, we are punished with Hell.
You won't hurt God by disobeying Him nor will you help Him by obeying Him, He does not need help, me, you, this planet and He existed prior to the birth of the Milky Way and even the universe.God creates what He wants and makes things dead too, whatever He wants.
Glory be to God.Peace.
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My belief is that God wants us to "prostrate" ourselves both physically and mentally so that we can show our obedience to God and strengthen our relationship with Him. Perhaps Salat is a form of meditation or maybe its a set way to ensure that we remember God throughout the day and exert ourselves in the form of bowing, prostrating, reciting Quran and reflecting on its meaning to show our love for the creator and to humble ourselves. Salat shouldn't just be a set of physical movements, but should also be a time for remembrance of God and spiritual growth that should hopefully reflect in ones character.
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salaam
verse 2125 according to 'The Message - Progressive Muslims'
2125 - And We have made the Dwelling to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take from the situation of Abraham for communion. And We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael ?You shall purify My Dwelling for those who visit, and those who are devoted, and the kneeling, the prostrating.?
please consider this
2125 - And We have made meditation (bayt) a refuge (mathabatan) for man, and a way to appease the mind (amnan). And you should make out of Ibrahim's position (maqam) as one who has arrived home (mussallan). And We have assigned Ibrahim and Ismael to refine the meditation on Me (baytiya) for those wandering in mind (ta'ifeen) while in devotion ('akifeen), and respectfully (sujood) acknowledging (ruku'.
in 2124 consider 'bi-kalimatin' as 'logically.' the first part could read;
2124 Since Ibrahim has arrived at a conclusion about his Lord logically, therefore he has concluded them, ...
please spend some time to ponder. and ponder. and ask God for guidance. insha-Allah He will guide you. and please apply the suggested meaning for all the respective words used in al-Qur'an, insha-Allah, a comprehension will be given. just ponder. and ponder. and ask the Lord.
without prejudice, please.
peace
joe -
Peace be upon you Alen,
Always respectfully.
To brother God Within
The Exalted God AllPowerful, The Most Just, does not need us, our prayers nor prostrations or our following or not following His Law.
God exists, regardless of some movements on this tiny little planet, which He can make go away in a single word"Be" and it happens, it's gone.Yes I agree that The God does not need you or I ....but God USES you and I ......IF we can make our vehicles worthy of God's full presence. Remember we were created to SERVE the God. As above so below....our eyes serve us so that we can have an outer visual experience, we dont need our eyes, but when we have them they do a great service to us. Or better yet, we can create an idea in our minds, lets say a business plan. We dont NEED that idea, but it would be nice if that IDEA matured into a profitable business. Or like a piece of land, we dont need ....etc
God knows that there will be some one here and there that will step up to the plate and purify thier vehicles as we haved been guided to do. So there is not an image of a worried God. God is ultimate Peace...and so are we.
God AllPowerful wants us to obey Him.
We were created to serve God....to purify our beings so that God can manifest through you....we are God TOOLS, God works through the purified (divine)man and woman.
If we obey God, we are rewarded with Paradise, if not, we are punished with Hell.
metaphorically, yes
You won't hurt God by disobeying Him nor will you help Him by obeying Him
I do not disagree, but that type of wording makes one see God as some "HE" out there that has the capability of being hurt. God is not any THING.
He does not need help, me, you, this planet and He existed prior to the birth of the Milky Way and even the universe.
Correct, we agree again.
God creates what He wants and makes things dead too, whatever He wants.
Glory be to God.Absolutely!
What about the questions I asked in my prior post? Would you like to discuss them with me?
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Peace be upon you bubbles,
My belief is that God wants us to "prostrate" ourselves both physically and mentally so that we can show our obedience to God and strengthen our relationship with Him. Perhaps Salat is a form of meditation or maybe its a set way to ensure that we remember God throughout the day and exert ourselves in the form of bowing, prostrating, reciting Quran and reflecting on its meaning to show our love for the creator and to humble ourselves. Salat shouldn't just be a set of physical movements, but should also be a time for remembrance of God and spiritual growth that should hopefully reflect in ones character.
prostrating to God physically is called exercise! ;D Working out, eating the foods that were designed for our particular bodies, drinking water, etc. One cannot physically bow down to that which has no form. God is closer that the jugular vein...how can one bow to that which is WITHIN? !
Do you see where this leads?
With that said..I am not against physical bowing if it helps you personally to nourish your humbleness at God's Knowledge and Power. I will use that method also from time to time if the situation becomes that severe..but it is firmly rooted in the understanding that God cannot literally be bowed to.
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Peace be upon you Joe,
Looking foward to the rest!!
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peace )
Peace be upon you,
The God does not shy from similitudes. In 2008, are people still following the idea that GOD is some old man in the sky that must be literally bowed and prostrated to? And what do those postures do for your character? Wouldnt it be better to just to submit to the laws of the created universe?
I havent read this entire thread, but has the question arose about how one can enter the gate prostrating?
Also the believers prostrate upon hearing the word of God...does that mean when I am crossing the expressway and I hear the word of God, I must get on the ground? Wouldnt it be more effective to adjust your character to what you hear? Can you not see the wisdom of that simiitude of "prostration" meaning taking the information and using it?
Have the millions of people who physically prostrate changed the character of thier group? Or is it the group who "mentally prostrates" that has more success?
you make really good points there, gw.
i agree that it would be more effective to adjust our character, i don't think the physical part matters that much, i mean we are not our bodies (in a way), we are souls in these bodies that eventually we will lose and all that's left will be our souls, that's the part we should focus oni remember when i bowed and prostrated physically, but i was ignoring the rest of quran, like i wasn't good to my parents, my mom would ask me to do something and i'd be too lazy to do it, then i started thinking, about the part in quran where god tells us to be good to parents, to help them out, after all my mom did sacrifice a lot for me, and it felt better and more right to be good to her, and i think that's more following the quran and bowing and prostrating to God then moving physically up and down, what do you think?
also, i would like to ask, how (by doing what) does one submit to the laws of the created universe?, how does one prostrate mentaly?
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salaam khurram
appreciate if you could provide the verse. please.
peace.
joesalaam khurram
appreciate if you could provide the verse. please.
peace.
joeONE instance of this is
al-Isra' (Children of Israel, The Israelites) 17107
17107
Transliteration Qul aminoo bihi aw la tu/minoo inna allatheena ootoo alAAilma min qablihi itha yutla AAalayhim yakhirroona lil-athqani sujjadan
Literal Say "Believe with it or do not believe, that (E) those who were given/brought to the knowledge, from before it, if (it) is being read/recited on them, they fall down to the chins/beards prostrating." -
peace khurram,
I assume you are linking 17107 with "salat", by its proximity to 17110 where "salat" is used?
This is a fairly weak link. It is possible this is an idiomatic expression, meaning they submit their whole self (i.e. to the chin), or if taken literally, it can mean to lower the head and thus the chin to the chest in recognition/acknowledgement/sujud. However, the strongest argument against this being literal is the logic of it, as there is no way one should physically fall to the ground when The Quran is recited upon them, as that would be highly impractical, and possibly nonsensical.
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Peace.
Then perhaps I would be nonsensical since when I heard the quran and the message of the quran alone via a video by Rashad Khalifa I feel down on my chin and prostrated as I said, "I submit to the Lord of the worlds". So i guess that is nonsense to others, but a life changing moment for some.
Glory Be To Our God.
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GBTOG, I would not consider doing it once to be nonsensical, but the verse discusses to do this when it is recited, i.e. every time.
Unless you can prove it discusses only once or for the first time. Please bring evidence for such a view if this is your view. If not, let's stick with what I actually said.
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Peace.
I agree this in fact occured on one occasion in the initial time I accepted. Afterwards, i heard the quran and wondered how I would perform such an act in places where I am in public.
When I hear the quran at the Mosque, my eyes fill with tears, but I feel that I can hold myself from prostrating due to being in line with the others, but the urge to prostrate is strong, just like I can not fight back the tears effectively everytime. So, in that instance I had to simply put my head down, as you stated with my chin to my chest.So, I am not sure if the initial physical prostration was prompted by my previous knowledge of the quran and the idea that this was an action I was supposed to perform based on my acknowledgement, but at the time it occurred it felt like the right thing to do. As a symbolic gesture of my appreciation for the knowledge and mercy that was bestowed upon me.
I think the truth lies somewhere between a physical and mental prostration or both. I do not see any prohibition on doing physical prostrations, do you?
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Peace.
Based on reading some articles and being able to verify some of that information. I have conlcuded the following
Salat can be an oath/bond which does not exclude a physical prostration, but encompasses a more broader meaning of hearing and obeying the commands.
This concept of prostration just like wudu can be both physical and mental. Without each other the other seems pointless.For example
Quran says to wash one's face, hands to elbows, head, and feet. This is literal and mental. Literally clean those areas, due to a physical prostration which includes all those body parts. Second, a mental cleaning of the face, heands, head, and feet. I.E.. Make pure your eyes what you look at, your lips what you say, your ears what you hear, your feet where you walk, your head what you think., etc.
So, it doesnt have to be one or the other, but they can be both at the same time.
The oath/bond is to hear and obey God.
If he says read Quran in the dawn, you should uphold your oath/bond that you aggreed to when you submitted to God and uphold that command to read quran in the morning.
Just like if he told you to prostrate during the sun's setting then you should do such.whatever he commands you to do at a timed decree you are to uphold the oath/bond and do what he asks.
If that includes reading or prostrating. Just liek the wudu, prostration can be physical in the timed decree he states and mental in the times when you are not under a timed decree, hence- upholding the bond/oath of not liying, stealing, taking other gods, etc.Correct me if I am wrong.
Glory Be To OUr God
