Common problems associated with the "salat" issue

Joe_Betik

salaam

verse 2125 according to 'The Message - Progressive Muslims'

2125 - And We have made the Dwelling to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take from the situation of Abraham for communion. And We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael ?You shall purify My Dwelling for those who visit, and those who are devoted, and the kneeling, the prostrating.?

please consider this

2125 - And We have made meditation (bayt) a refuge (mathabatan) for man, and a way to appease the mind (amnan). And you should make out of Ibrahim's position (maqam) as one who has arrived home (mussallan). And We have assigned Ibrahim and Ismael to refine the meditation on Me (baytiya) for those wandering in mind (ta'ifeen) while in devotion ('akifeen), and respectfully (sujood) acknowledging (ruku&#039.

in 2124 consider 'bi-kalimatin' as 'logically.' the first part could read;

2124 Since Ibrahim has arrived at a conclusion about his Lord logically, therefore he has concluded them, ...

please spend some time to ponder. and ponder. and ask God for guidance. insha-Allah He will guide you. and please apply the suggested meaning for all the respective words used in al-Qur'an, insha-Allah, a comprehension will be given. just ponder. and ponder. and ask the Lord.

without prejudice, please.

peace
joe

God_Within

Peace be upon you Alen,

Always respectfully.

To brother God Within
The Exalted God AllPowerful, The Most Just, does not need us, our prayers nor prostrations or our following or not following His Law.
God exists, regardless of some movements on this tiny little planet, which He can make go away in a single word"Be" and it happens, it's gone.

Yes I agree that The God does not need you or I ....but God USES you and I ......IF we can make our vehicles worthy of God's full presence. Remember we were created to SERVE the God. As above so below....our eyes serve us so that we can have an outer visual experience, we dont need our eyes, but when we have them they do a great service to us. Or better yet, we can create an idea in our minds, lets say a business plan. We dont NEED that idea, but it would be nice if that IDEA matured into a profitable business. Or like a piece of land, we dont need ....etc

God knows that there will be some one here and there that will step up to the plate and purify thier vehicles as we haved been guided to do. So there is not an image of a worried God. God is ultimate Peace...and so are we.

God AllPowerful wants us to obey Him.

We were created to serve God....to purify our beings so that God can manifest through you....we are God TOOLS, God works through the purified (divine)man and woman.

If we obey God, we are rewarded with Paradise, if not, we are punished with Hell.

metaphorically, yes

You won't hurt God by disobeying Him nor will you help Him by obeying Him

I do not disagree, but that type of wording makes one see God as some "HE" out there that has the capability of being hurt. God is not any THING.

He does not need help, me, you, this planet and He existed prior to the birth of the Milky Way and even the universe.

Correct, we agree again.

God creates what He wants and makes things dead too, whatever He wants.
Glory be to God.

Absolutely!

What about the questions I asked in my prior post? Would you like to discuss them with me?

God_Within

Peace be upon you bubbles,

My belief is that God wants us to "prostrate" ourselves both physically and mentally so that we can show our obedience to God and strengthen our relationship with Him. Perhaps Salat is a form of meditation or maybe its a set way to ensure that we remember God throughout the day and exert ourselves in the form of bowing, prostrating, reciting Quran and reflecting on its meaning to show our love for the creator and to humble ourselves. Salat shouldn't just be a set of physical movements, but should also be a time for remembrance of God and spiritual growth that should hopefully reflect in ones character.

prostrating to God physically is called exercise! ;D Working out, eating the foods that were designed for our particular bodies, drinking water, etc. One cannot physically bow down to that which has no form. God is closer that the jugular vein...how can one bow to that which is WITHIN? !

Do you see where this leads?

With that said..I am not against physical bowing if it helps you personally to nourish your humbleness at God's Knowledge and Power. I will use that method also from time to time if the situation becomes that severe..but it is firmly rooted in the understanding that God cannot literally be bowed to.

God_Within

Peace be upon you Joe,

Looking foward to the rest!!

khurram

peace.

at at least two instances in the Reading, I notice mention of people performing salaa / sujud with their chins touching their floor.

so is there not some physical ritual aspect of salaa?

Please help.

Joe_Betik

salaam khurram

appreciate if you could provide the verse. please.

peace.
joe

nerspi

peace )

Peace be upon you,

The God does not shy from similitudes. In 2008, are people still following the idea that GOD is some old man in the sky that must be literally bowed and prostrated to? And what do those postures do for your character? Wouldnt it be better to just to submit to the laws of the created universe?

I havent read this entire thread, but has the question arose about how one can enter the gate prostrating?

Also the believers prostrate upon hearing the word of God...does that mean when I am crossing the expressway and I hear the word of God, I must get on the ground? Wouldnt it be more effective to adjust your character to what you hear? Can you not see the wisdom of that simiitude of "prostration" meaning taking the information and using it?

Have the millions of people who physically prostrate changed the character of thier group? Or is it the group who "mentally prostrates" that has more success?

you make really good points there, gw.
i agree that it would be more effective to adjust our character, i don't think the physical part matters that much, i mean we are not our bodies (in a way), we are souls in these bodies that eventually we will lose and all that's left will be our souls, that's the part we should focus on

i remember when i bowed and prostrated physically, but i was ignoring the rest of quran, like i wasn't good to my parents, my mom would ask me to do something and i'd be too lazy to do it, then i started thinking, about the part in quran where god tells us to be good to parents, to help them out, after all my mom did sacrifice a lot for me, and it felt better and more right to be good to her, and i think that's more following the quran and bowing and prostrating to God then moving physically up and down, what do you think?

also, i would like to ask, how (by doing what) does one submit to the laws of the created universe?, how does one prostrate mentaly?

khurram

salaam khurram

appreciate if you could provide the verse. please.

peace.
joe

salaam khurram

appreciate if you could provide the verse. please.

peace.
joe

ONE instance of this is

al-Isra' (Children of Israel, The Israelites) 17107

17107

Transliteration Qul aminoo bihi aw la tu/minoo inna allatheena ootoo alAAilma min qablihi itha yutla AAalayhim yakhirroona lil-athqani sujjadan
Literal Say "Believe with it or do not believe, that (E) those who were given/brought to the knowledge, from before it, if (it) is being read/recited on them, they fall down to the chins/beards prostrating."

Wakas

peace khurram,

I assume you are linking 17107 with "salat", by its proximity to 17110 where "salat" is used?

This is a fairly weak link. It is possible this is an idiomatic expression, meaning they submit their whole self (i.e. to the chin), or if taken literally, it can mean to lower the head and thus the chin to the chest in recognition/acknowledgement/sujud. However, the strongest argument against this being literal is the logic of it, as there is no way one should physically fall to the ground when The Quran is recited upon them, as that would be highly impractical, and possibly nonsensical.

GloryBeToOurGod

Peace.

Then perhaps I would be nonsensical since when I heard the quran and the message of the quran alone via a video by Rashad Khalifa I feel down on my chin and prostrated as I said, "I submit to the Lord of the worlds". So i guess that is nonsense to others, but a life changing moment for some.

Glory Be To Our God.

Wakas

GBTOG, I would not consider doing it once to be nonsensical, but the verse discusses to do this when it is recited, i.e. every time.

Unless you can prove it discusses only once or for the first time. Please bring evidence for such a view if this is your view. If not, let's stick with what I actually said.

GloryBeToOurGod

Peace.

I agree this in fact occured on one occasion in the initial time I accepted. Afterwards, i heard the quran and wondered how I would perform such an act in places where I am in public.
When I hear the quran at the Mosque, my eyes fill with tears, but I feel that I can hold myself from prostrating due to being in line with the others, but the urge to prostrate is strong, just like I can not fight back the tears effectively everytime. So, in that instance I had to simply put my head down, as you stated with my chin to my chest.

So, I am not sure if the initial physical prostration was prompted by my previous knowledge of the quran and the idea that this was an action I was supposed to perform based on my acknowledgement, but at the time it occurred it felt like the right thing to do. As a symbolic gesture of my appreciation for the knowledge and mercy that was bestowed upon me.

I think the truth lies somewhere between a physical and mental prostration or both. I do not see any prohibition on doing physical prostrations, do you?

Wakas

peace,

I do not see any prohibition on doing physical prostrations, do you?

I am not aware of one, like I am not aware of a prohibition doing the robot dance.

GloryBeToOurGod

Peace.

Based on reading some articles and being able to verify some of that information. I have conlcuded the following

Salat can be an oath/bond which does not exclude a physical prostration, but encompasses a more broader meaning of hearing and obeying the commands.
This concept of prostration just like wudu can be both physical and mental. Without each other the other seems pointless.

For example

Quran says to wash one's face, hands to elbows, head, and feet. This is literal and mental. Literally clean those areas, due to a physical prostration which includes all those body parts. Second, a mental cleaning of the face, heands, head, and feet. I.E.. Make pure your eyes what you look at, your lips what you say, your ears what you hear, your feet where you walk, your head what you think., etc.

So, it doesnt have to be one or the other, but they can be both at the same time.

The oath/bond is to hear and obey God.

If he says read Quran in the dawn, you should uphold your oath/bond that you aggreed to when you submitted to God and uphold that command to read quran in the morning.
Just like if he told you to prostrate during the sun's setting then you should do such.

whatever he commands you to do at a timed decree you are to uphold the oath/bond and do what he asks.
If that includes reading or prostrating. Just liek the wudu, prostration can be physical in the timed decree he states and mental in the times when you are not under a timed decree, hence- upholding the bond/oath of not liying, stealing, taking other gods, etc.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Glory Be To OUr God

khurram

peace khurram,

I assume you are linking 17107 with "salat", by its proximity to 17110 where "salat" is used?

This is a fairly weak link. It is possible this is an idiomatic expression, meaning they submit their whole self (i.e. to the chin), or if taken literally, it can mean to lower the head and thus the chin to the chest in recognition/acknowledgement/sujud. However, the strongest argument against this being literal is the logic of it, as there is no way one should physically fall to the ground when The Quran is recited upon them, as that would be highly impractical, and possibly nonsensical.

Peace.
I am not relating this to Salaa actually.

I am referring to the act of sujud.

Sujud has been allowed as an act that can be physical where one prostrates such that the chin touches the floor.

Regards.
Khurram

Wakas

peace khurram,

By quoting 17107 directly after saying this

at at least two instances in the Reading, I notice mention of people performing salaa / sujud with their chins touching their floor.

so is there not some physical ritual aspect of salaa?

It clearly implies you are linking "salaa" with "sujud". To then say you are not relating them, is very unusual to me.

Anyways, let's say you're not relating them, so we can get back on point...

Sujud has been allowed as an act that can be physical where one prostrates such that the chin touches the floor.

This implies you take 17107 literally, if so, do you prostrate to the chin whenever you hear Al Quran (AQ) being recited?

Secondly, there is zero evidence of "sujud" used in a physical sense in AQ. The only possibility is this one, but as I said the practical implications of it being physical are significantly problematic. If we couple this with the FACT that "sujud" clearly does not mean a physical prostration in these signs (124, 4154, 25, and the example in which AQ equates the result of "sujud" with "hearing and obeying", I think the conclusion is apparent for all to see. I cant recall the specific verse at the moment. Background reading
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7801.msg13197#msg13197
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7428.msg7617#msg7617

peace GBTOG,

I agree with the gist of what you are saying. I'm sure you have probably read my article on "salat", so you know my view.

AlFajr

Peace all,
I have been doing some research and come accross some interesting verses.

Set 1

339
The angels called to him whilst he was standing, communing, in the temple enclosure ?God gives you good tidings of John, authenticating the word from God, and a master, and steadfast, and a prophet from the upright.?

3343
He is the One who communes over you, along with His angels, to lead you out of darkness into the light. And He is ever Merciful towards the believers.

8712
He will enter the great Fire.

The above bolded are all the same word.
So Salat may imply some kind of "connection".

Set 2

283
And We took the covenant of the Children of Israel ?You shall not serve except God, and regard your parents, and regard the relatives, and orphans, and needy, and say kind things to the people, and uphold the communion, and contribute towards betterment.? But then you turned away, except a few of you; you were objecting.

512
God has taken the covenant of the Children of Israel and raised from them twelve representatives, and God said ?I am with you if you uphold the communion, and contribute towards betterment, and believe in My messengers, and support them, and give God a loan of righteousness; then I will cancel your sins and admit you into estates with rivers flowing beneath.? Whoever rejects after this from you, then he has strayed from the path.

514
And from those who have said ?We are Nazarenes,? We have taken their covenant and they have forgotten much of what they were reminded of; so We planted between them animosity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection; and God will inform them of what they had done.

Jesus
1931
?And He made me blessed wherever I was, and He charged me with the communion and towards betterment as long as I am alive.?

The Jews and Christians also had a covenant. Part of the Jews Covenant was also to uphold the Salat . Jesus was also charged with the Salat.
Salat is also part of the Covenant for believers in the Quran.

57
And recall God?s blessings over you and His covenant that He has bound you with, for which you have said ?We hear and obey,? and be aware of God; for God knows what is inside the chests.

Set 3

443
O you who believe, do not approach the communion while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.

4101
And if you go forth in the land, then there is no harm that you shorten from the communion, if you fear that the disbelievers will try you. The disbelievers are to you a clear enemy.

4102
And if you are with them and you hold the communion for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet communed come and commune with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.

4103
So, when you are done making the communion, then remember God while standing, or sitting, or on your sides. So, when you are relieved, then uphold the communion. Indeed, the communion for the believers becomes a timed schedule.

4142
The hypocrites seek to deceive God, while He is deceiving them; and if they stand to make the communion, they do so lazily, only to show the people; they do not remember God except very little.

56
O you who believe, if you rise to hold the communion, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you cannot not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to place any hardship on you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative.

558
And if you call to the communion, they take it as fun and games. That is because they are a people who do not understand.

591
The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the communion. Will you be deterred?

The above verses signify Salat is something formal. It is something that people can "not take/perform seriously".

Set 4

7170
As for those who adhere to the Scripture, and they uphold the communion; We will not waste the reward of the righteous.

95
So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and uphold the communion, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

911
If they repent, and they uphold the communion, and they contribute towards betterment, then they are your brothers in the system. We explain the revelations for a people who know.

918
Rather, the temples of God are maintained by he who believes in God and the Last Day, and he upholds the communion, and he contributes towards betterment, and he does not fear except God. It is these that will be of the guided ones.

954
And what prevented what they would spend from being accepted from them except that they rejected God and His messenger, and they do not attend the communion except lazily, and they do not spend except unwillingly.

232
Those who are humble when making their communion.

7023
Who are steadfast to their communion.

6162
Say ?My communion, and my rites, and my life, and my death, are all to God the Lord of the worlds.?

239
And those who maintain their communions.

People who believe and adhere to the Quran should do the Salat. People who disbelieve can prove their allegiance by doing Salat. Not doing the Salat can have implications in the hereafter.

Set 5

1087
And We inspired to Moses and his brother ?Let your people leave their homes in Egypt, and let these homes be your focal point, and hold the communion. And give good news to the believers.?

11114
And you shall hold the communion at the two edges of the day, during the near parts of the night. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember.

1437
?Our Lord, I have resided part of my progeny in an uncultivated valley near your Sacred Dwelling. My Lord, so that they may uphold the communion. So let the hearts of the people incline towards them and give provisions to them of the fruits that they may give thanks.?

1440
?My Lord, let me uphold the communion, and also from my progeny. Our Lord, accept my prayer.?

1778
You shall hold the communion at the setting of the sun until the darkness of the night; and the Qur?an at dawn; the Qur?an at dawn is witnessed.
1779
And from the night you shall reflect upon it additionally for yourself, perhaps your Lord would grant you to a high rank.

2173
And We made them leaders who guide by Our command, and We inspired them to do good work and uphold the communion and contribute towards betterment, and they were in service to Us.

2241
Those whom if We allow them authority in the land, they uphold the communion, and they contribute towards betterment, and deter from evil. And to God is the conclusion of all matters.

1959
Then generations came after them who lost the communion, and followed desires. They will find their consequences.

239
And those who maintain their communions.

Salat is something to be established/maintained. The believers with authority establish it. It can be "lost" by later generations.

Set 6

2437
Men who are not distracted by trade or sale from the remembrance of God and holding the communion, and contributing towards betterment. They fear a Day when the hearts and sight will be overturned.

4142
The hypocrites seek to deceive God, while He is deceiving them; and if they stand to make the communion, they do so lazily, only to show the people; they do not remember God except very little.

954
And what prevented what they would spend from being accepted from them except that they rejected God and His messenger, and they do not attend the communion except lazily, and they do not spend except unwillingly.

1074
So woe to those who commune,
1075
But to their communion they are absent minded.

It is something that requires "effort" as one can be too lazy or too distracted to do it.

Set 7

2945
Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and hold the communion, for the communion prohibits evil and vice; but certainly the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do.

3117
?O my son, hold the communion and advocate righteousness and forbid evil, and bear with patience whatever befalls you. These are the most honorable traits.?

3518
And none can carry the load of another, and even if it calls on another to bear part of its load, no other can carry any part of it, even if they were related. You will only be able to warn those who fear their Lord while unseen, and they uphold the communion. And whoever contributes, is contributing for himself. And to God is the final destiny.

4238
And those who have responded to their Lord, and they uphold the communion, and their affairs are conducted by mutual consultation among themselves, and from Our provisions to them they give.

7020
When adversity touches him he is miserable.
7021
And when good touches him he is stingy.
7022
Except for those who commune.

The Salat is something that distinguished the righteous people and makes them more susceptible to reformation and good conduct.

Set 8

6210
Then, once the communion is complete, you shall disperse through the land and seek God's provisions, and remember God frequently that you may succeed.

2458
O you who believe, let those who are committed to you by oath, and those who have not yet attained puberty, request your permission regarding three times before the dawn communion, and when you put off your attire from the noon time, and after the evening communion. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

629
O you who believe, if the communion is called to on the day of assembly, then you shall hasten towards the remembrance of God, and cease all selling. This is better for you, if you only knew.

The Salat is something that occurs at a distinct time.

Set 9

20132
And instruct your family with the communion, and be patient for it. We do not ask you for provision, for We provide for you. And the good end is for the righteous.

1955
And he used to instruct his family with the communion and towards betterment, and his Lord was pleased with him.

245
And seek help through patience, and through the communion. It is a difficult thing, but not so for the humble.

2153
O you who believe, seek help through patience and through the communion, God is with the patient ones.

1187
They said ?O Shu?ayb, does your communion order you that we leave what our fathers served, or that we do not do with our money as we please? You are the compassionate, the sane!?

The Salat can affect the believers' behavior (increase their patience) as well as those around them.

Set 10

9103
Take from their money a charity to purify them and develop them with it, and commune over them; for your communion is a tranquility for them; and God is Hearer, Knowledgeable.

999
And from the Nomads are those who believe in God and the Last Day, and he looks upon what he spends to make him closer to God, and the communions of the messenger. It indeed makes them closer. God will admit them in His mercy; God is Forgiving, Merciful.

The Salat is valuable and a source of tranquility.

Set 11

17110
Say ?Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in making your communion, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.

835
And their communion at the Dwelling was nothing but noise and aversion. Taste the retribution for what you have rejected.

2238
Maintain the communions; and a balanced communion; and stand dutiful for God.

The Salat is something that can be taken to the extreme (noise etc.).

Set 12

232
Those who are humble when making their communion.

7023
Who are steadfast to their communion.

20132
And instruct your family with the communion, and be patient for it. We do not ask you for provision, for We provide for you. And the good end is for the righteous.

692
And this is a Scripture which We have sent down, blessed, authenticating what is present with him, and that you may warn the capital of the towns and those around it. And those who believe in the Hereafter believe in it, and they are dedicated to their communion.

The Salat needs to be maintained in a patient/humble/dedicated way.

Set 13

7531
For he did not believe nor commune.
7532
But he denied and turned away.

969
Have you seen the one who deters,
9610
A servant from communing?
9619
So do not obey him, prostrate and come near.

A Salat draws one closer to God and Truth.

Set 14

4103
So, when you are done making the communion, then remember God while standing, or sitting, or on your sides. So, when you are relieved, then uphold the communion. Indeed, the communion for the believers becomes a timed schedule.

The Remembrance of God can occur even after the communion

Set 15

1181
They said ?O Lot, we are your Lord?s messengers; they will not be able to harm you, so travel with your family during the cover of the night and let not any of you look back except for your wife, she will be afflicted with what they will be afflicted. Their appointed time will be the morning. Is the morning not near??

4102
And if you are with them and you hold the communion for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet communed come and commune with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution

The above 2 bolded bits are both the same word . YSsLWA

It implies some form of "contact".

I haven't come to a conclusion yet but to me it appears to be a visible action that only offers benefits to those with the right attitude/mentality.

khurram

Secondly, there is zero evidence of "sujud" used in a physical sense in AQ. The only possibility is this one, but as I said the practical implications of it being physical are significantly problematic. If we couple this with the FACT that "sujud" clearly does not mean a physical prostration in these signs (124, 4154, 25, and the example in which AQ equates the result of "sujud" with "hearing and obeying", I think the conclusion is apparent for all to see. I cant recall the specific verse at the moment. Background reading
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7801.msg13197#msg13197
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7428.msg7617#msg7617

Peace Wakas.

Thanks for the references.
What is more enlightening in the background reading is that even the mention of Qibla does not relate to Salaa.

Overall, I do not perform salaa the way sunnis do, but I was questioning whether there is a physical aspect of sujud and ruku.
Thanks for your reply on this.

GloryBeToOurGod

Peace.

aa I have read your post and I find it interesting.

The following verses you indicated

2458
O you who believe, let those who are committed to you by oath, and those who have not yet attained puberty, request your permission regarding three times before the dawn communion, and when you put off your attire from the noon time, and after the evening communion. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.

Look in this verse where it says put off your attire from the noon time. Then it later says God thus clarifies the revelations for you.
If the salat al wusta or "middle prayer" if you want to call it a prayer. Then the middle prayer is not really a prayer. God clearly indicates the dawn and the evening communion according to this translation or dawn and evening "salat". Thus, clarifying that the reference to middle prayer or middle salat. indicates that there is not in fact a middle "prayer. But it would make more sense to say the salat is a bond/oath and the central or most important of those oaths to be upheld.

Now the verses you put

95
So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and uphold the communion, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.

911
If they repent, and they uphold the communion, and they contribute towards betterment, then they are your brothers in the system. We explain the revelations for a people who know.

Just looking at these verses out of context would make one to think that the people mentioned here are former believers, but if you look at the whole of the chapter 9, you can clearly see they are referring to those who broke the treaty. So the repent would refer to the breaking of that treaty. 95 clearly defines these people as "those who have set up partners".

Also, you mentioned a verse about I beelive John receiving news while he was in "communion". The following verse or near verse says what? He indicated to his pepole they should glorify their Lord Morning and evening.

Thus strengthening for me that the "salat" is 2 times a day. Also, there are many many verses in which the "morning and evening" are mentioned. Including the dwellers of hell getting nasty food I believe in the morning and evening. Perhaps as an exact recompose for their lack of "salat" morning and evening.

To GOD prostrates everyone in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and so do their shadows in the mornings and the evenings.

Therefore, be patient in the face of their utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, as well as at both ends of the day, that you may be happy.

They glorify night and day, without ever tiring

Therefore, you shall glorify GOD when you retire at night, and when you rise in the morning.

You shall glorify Him day and night.

We committed the mountains in his service, glorifying with him night and day.

Therefore, be patient in the face of their utterances, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise, and before sunset.
You shall steadfastly persevere in carrying out your Lord's command - you are in our eyes - and glorify and praise your Lord when you get up.

Also during the night glorify Him, and at dawn as the stars fade away.

You shall glorify the name of your Lord, the Great.

Therefore, you shall glorify the name of your Lord, Most Great.

During the night, fall prostrate before Him, and glorify Him many a long night.

You shall glorify and praise your Lord, and implore Him for forgiveness. He is the Redeemer.

At dawn, they prayed for forgiveness.

Also during the night glorify Him, and at dawn as the stars fade away.

We showered them with rocks. Only Lot's family was saved at dawn.

By the dawn.

Peaceful it is until the advent of the dawn.

They are steadfast, truthful, submitting, charitable, and meditators at dawn.

So Zakariya came out to his people from him chamber He told them by signs to celebrate God's praises in the morning and in the evening.

Joe_Betik

salaam,

please read without prejudice. this is just a personal comprehension. and ponder on verse 15.

087 The Most High

In status, God is the Compassionately Gracious

Immerse yourself in the status of your (s) Lord, He is the Most High.
He is the one who created, therefore He created in harmony.
And He is the one who determined, therefore He determined in guiding.
And He is the one who made it public, the guardianship.
Therefore He made it ecstaticly joyful, the ripening of deep thoughts.
So, We shall let you (s) ponder, but then do not be oblivious.
It is only what He wills. Verily He is aware of the manifest, and what He keeps as a secret.
And We will make it easy for you to follow.
Therefore, you remind, if the reminder is beneficial.
He will remember, whoever is in fear.
But, he will avoid it, the one who finds it burdensome.
He is the one who is roasting in the great fire.
For that reason, he does not die therein, and he is not ashamed.
He had already prospered, anyone who clears his mind.
And he keeps in mind the status of his Lord, therefore, he establishes the relationship.
No, you (pl.) prefer the life of this world, rather.
While the life of the Hereafter is better, and more permanent.
Verily this is in the initial journals.
It was the journals of Ibrahim, and Musa too.

peace

joe