Why dont muslims observe the Hajj?
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Of course it could mean shaving the head. It could also mean bopping your head from side to side and waving your hands in the air like you just dont care etc.
What I mean by the above comment is it could mean many things and it is a matter of weighing up the evidence and determining what is most likely. We cannot just pick and choose whatever meaning is theoretically possible and we definitely should not use our preconceived beliefs as a starting point then try to justify them even if no evidence exists or evidence is actually against them. This is not how the truth is determined.
Quite simply, assess how you arrived at the "shaving head" understanding, list the evidence and present it here. I have asked Layth to do the same.
Once done, this will allows us to determine the truth more accurately.
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Why are people going on about it being physical or not? Who said there was no physical element? Please link me to the specific article, maybe I've missed something.
Nearly everything we do has a physical element, because we use our body to do stuff.
I was questioning if it was literal because the term "sacred temple" is commonly used in christian writings to refer to the human body.
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Of course it could mean shaving the head.
O.K. so you admitted that it could mean shave the head. So what if this was it ( what it is most likely to mean) and /or one of Gods symbols and the people rejected it. For all this time, my question still remains, Why dont muslims observe the Hajj?
Why not we just do all of what you mentioned Why dont we not shave our heads untill we fullfile our duty and bop our heads for God and lift up our hands in the air in prayer?
Even with this being a mistranslation for all this time ( Generations ) the only knowlege that was really given of that verse is " Dont shave heads..ect... And with this being the only knowledge, Muslims still dint and dont observe Hajj.
The Quran clearly states that if one cannot make the visit to send a donation. And do not shave your heads till it reaches its destination. So why do muslims shave their heads when they have not completed the visit or sent a donation?
And were is this donation suppose to go? I would like to know. And why dont Muslims know the answer?
I dont see much efforts to even make hajj. Who said that it was only obligated for those who can afford it? I believ it is obligated on us all, rich or poor. God is owed by mankind to make the pilgrage. And whosoever rejects ,then God is the rich, the Praiseworthy.
God has gave us a Focal Point. Set urself towards the Sacred temple. And werever you go out, you shall set urselves towards it. And werever u may be set urselves towards it.
To the Sacred Temple is my focus.
And those who set up partners not go approach the Sacred temple after this year of theirs!
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peace AW,
The way you word your questions are unclear and unusual to me. Please try and be clearer.
Why dont muslims observe the Hajj?
Do you mean why dont Traditional Muslims observe the Quranic Hajj? (what hajj are you referring to?)
Even with this being a mistranslation for all this time ( Generations )
I dont know if it has been a mistranslation for so long, I haven't studied this aspect.
So why do muslims shave their heads when they have not completed the visit or sent a donation?
There is no shaving head according to The Quran, but for sake of argument, let's say there is, the most likely reason is they do not follow The Quran.
And were is this donation suppose to go? I would like to know. And why dont Muslims know the answer?
The donation goes to the authority associated with running the hajj/conference. Most Traditional Muslims have very little idea what The Quran says thus asking them for answers is probably not going to be fruitful.
You seem to be confusing the practice of Traditional Muslims related to hajj and what The Quran says about hajj. The two are different.
I repeat, there is no shaving head. Try the search function for past discussions on hajj.
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peace, alright ...
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Peace,
Of course I do. Do you have evidence to the contrary, or, must we resort to metephoric meanings?
Please bring forth this evidence for all to see.
And as for mine, here is some of it, already stated on this thread. I quote myself
Typing in "shave" in the search function for example brings up some past threads, one of which is
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8807.msg49208#msg49208Read in conjunction with
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9022.msg48647#msg48647 -
If one cannot make the visit then send a donation. And do not shave your heads till it reaches its destination.
52 O you who believe, do not violate the symbols of God, nor the restricted month, nor the donations, nor what is regulated, nor the safety made by the Sacred Dwelling; for they are seeking a bounty from their Lord and a blessing.
2232 Thus, and whoever honors the symbols of God, then it is from the piety of the hearts.
God is owed by mankind to make the pilgrage. And whosoever rejects ,then God is the rich, the Praiseworthy.
Thats all I know...
I am a clear warner.
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Peace,
Please bring forth this evidence for all to see.
2196 And complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then make what is affordable of donation, and do not shave your heads until the donation reaches its destination; but whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a rite. But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family is not present at the Sacred Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.
The above is as clear as day for the physical shaving of the head.
I have read your thread. It is an incorrect attempt to force a distorted meaning.
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peace Layth, all,
The above is as clear as day for the physical shaving of the head.
Your response disappoints me.
It would seem your evidence is to translate the verse with "shave" in it, then say it is as clear as day it means "shave"! This is not evidence by anyone's standard.
Can you clarify as to why the evidence I presented is incorrect? Please be specific.
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Dear Wakas,
The translation I have used for the word shave is a literal rendering of the word as well as a rendering that fits the context of an exception exisiting for those who are ill or have an affliction from doing so.
Your argument neither uses the literal translation of the words nor does it take the discription of the illness and affliction from doing so...Yet, you ask me to provide the evidence and support for my statement!
My evidence is presented by virtue of quoting of the verses in question. Wherease your argument requires intricate changes to the very meaning of words in the verse - which I find completly wrong.
We will agree to disagree.
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peace Layth,
Thanks for your reply. I asked you for evidence because I already presented some. This is how discussion to weigh up evidence works.
Whilst I agree that according to the Classical Arabic dictionaries "shave" seems to be the most common meaning BUT that is not the only meaning. See the PRL entry
= Ha-Lam-Qaf = peel, strip, remove, shave, annoy, unlucky, destroy or cut off entirely, coat of mail, turn or drew a circle, cancel the pay/stipend/allowance of one, halo, it was/became high, become little in quantity and went away, ripening, sharp, quick, swift, agile, active, a high mountain rising above what surrounds it and without vegetable produce, ring, razor, sharp (said of a sword or man).
As you can clearly see, my translation of "relieve" is very similar to "remove" / "cancel" / "become little in quantity ans went away". Also, upon checking Lane again, it also lists "forsake" under the root HLQ.
Thus your statement that my argument requires changing the meaning of words does not give the full story. It is true that I never explicitly stated where I got "relieve" from in my links but I assumed you would have realised this having access to Classical Arabic dictionaries.
Now lets move onto the context argument...
As stated in my referenced links, the context of "relieve" fits. The only weakness I can see in my argument is that "head" (Ra-Alif-Siin) is used to mean a physical head most of the other occurrences (2196, 2196, 2279, 56, 7150, 1236, 1241, 1443, 1751, 194, 2094, 2165, 2219, 3212, 3765, 4448, 4827, 635). A possibility is that HLQ means "raise" as briefly discussed by myself and HK in the link. This was my initial understanding.
So, let's say it means "shave the head", here are some questions
What is the purpose of this head shaving?
What about bald men? Is this what "ailment of the head" refers to in your opinion?
If shaving of the head is for some sort of recognition factor then why in 4827 is it called for when entering "al masjid al haram", which would mean whether entering it or not you would still shave your head, thus it is unlikely for differentiation reasons. Unless one applies guesswork and says the head shaving in 4827 was a one off due to the victory.
When one is a victor in battle, they usually do not shave their head. The only possibility I can suggest for this is some sort of symbolic humility/submissiveness.Other alternatives
HLQ in both occurrences do not have to have the same meaning as they are different verb forms.
In 2196 it could mean "do not cancel your principle/capital" which would fit the context of offering. -
Peace, Wakas, all
Some verses are governing. and some are similar...
These are governing verses... and clear...
I would like to see a verse better than it then in guidance so I can follow it,,, So bring your translation of that same verse and lets see which is better...
peace
"You shall make it clear to the people and not conceal it"
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peace AW, all,
These are governing verses... and clear...
If you think they are clear / governing verses, that is up to you, but I prefer evidence based discussion over subjective opinion.
Just like someone might say 434 is clear and it means one can beat their wife. That is worthless as one would require them to say "it is clear because XYZ" where XYZ is actual Quranic evidence or logic etc not simply their opinion on what they think is clear or not.
We will see once Layth replies.
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peace,
434 As for those women from whom you fear desertion,then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them.
Who said beat them?
I asked you to bring a like verse from God if you truthful...
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peace AW,
It seems you have misunderstood my point. I will clarify.
If someone (anyone) says I think this is a clear (or as you term "governing" verse then this to me is worthless unless there is only one possible interpretation of the verse, e.g. "God is one", i.e. there is no other way to interpret a statement like that.
However, in the case we are discussing, there is at the very least unanswered questions, and alternatives that need to be weighed up. So for you to say it is clear/governing without providing Quranic evidence or logic as to why, then your statement is worthless in an evidence based discussion.
434 was an example. "beat" is the traditional view that some think is "clear", hence my use of this example.
I asked you to bring a like verse from God if you truthful...
I already said to you the way you word your questions is unclear, and asked you to be clearer, so if you can clarify what you mean by the above, then I will. I already referenced the usage of the roots/words in question and provided translations, hence not being sure what you are referring to.
Please note, if one wants to engage in discussion offering subjective opinion as their only evidence then feel free, but not with me.
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Peace,
Here is my evidence
2196 And complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then make what is affordable of donation, and do not shave your heads until the donation reaches its destination; but whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a rite. But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family is not present at the Sacred Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.
( Now will you bring me a verse that you think is better than this one... e.g. using a word other than " do not shave your heads' ect... ?)
The words " Do not " and the " regulations " in 2196 is what makes that verse governing... So it is a governing verse. It is a verse that God commands you to do and not to do something. And that is your "Quranic evidence."
Im not here to discuss. And I can and will study it... But im hear for an answer. Not to study. Im worn out on study.
And the Quran says if they dont bring you a Scripture from God that is better than the one I have, then they only follow there desires..ect.
So, what im askin you is
How do you think 2196 should be?
What is your interpretation of 2196?
What words would you use for 2196?
Bring 2196 for all to see... Bring a verse that is better than the one I have in guidance so I may follow it...
Peace,
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Be aware of God,
no you didnt.
You are following 4827,
4827 is a "simlar" verse.
It appears to me that you are using 4827 to frustrate 2196 and confuse... And we believe in 2196 and 4827... ( e.g. the shaving of the head, ect...)
I didnt ask you to bring me 4827, nor a web site, I asked for 2196...
that way we can weigh the alternatives up. ( e.g. compare the two translations/ alternatives ).
So type in your version of verse 2196... The whole verse...in other words bring a better translation of verse 2196 than this one...
Peace,
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Thank you for the advice on being aware of God. My advice is to be aware of reply 7 (I have highlighted the part you want)
peace,
Typing in "shave" in the search function for example brings up some past threads, one of which is
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8807.msg49208#msg49208Read in conjunction with
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9022.msg48647#msg48647The evidence is overwhelming.
A little hint it's the part above in bold and larger font size.
