Why dont muslims observe the Hajj?
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peace Layth, all,
The above is as clear as day for the physical shaving of the head.
Your response disappoints me.
It would seem your evidence is to translate the verse with "shave" in it, then say it is as clear as day it means "shave"! This is not evidence by anyone's standard.
Can you clarify as to why the evidence I presented is incorrect? Please be specific.
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Dear Wakas,
The translation I have used for the word shave is a literal rendering of the word as well as a rendering that fits the context of an exception exisiting for those who are ill or have an affliction from doing so.
Your argument neither uses the literal translation of the words nor does it take the discription of the illness and affliction from doing so...Yet, you ask me to provide the evidence and support for my statement!
My evidence is presented by virtue of quoting of the verses in question. Wherease your argument requires intricate changes to the very meaning of words in the verse - which I find completly wrong.
We will agree to disagree.
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peace Layth,
Thanks for your reply. I asked you for evidence because I already presented some. This is how discussion to weigh up evidence works.
Whilst I agree that according to the Classical Arabic dictionaries "shave" seems to be the most common meaning BUT that is not the only meaning. See the PRL entry
= Ha-Lam-Qaf = peel, strip, remove, shave, annoy, unlucky, destroy or cut off entirely, coat of mail, turn or drew a circle, cancel the pay/stipend/allowance of one, halo, it was/became high, become little in quantity and went away, ripening, sharp, quick, swift, agile, active, a high mountain rising above what surrounds it and without vegetable produce, ring, razor, sharp (said of a sword or man).
As you can clearly see, my translation of "relieve" is very similar to "remove" / "cancel" / "become little in quantity ans went away". Also, upon checking Lane again, it also lists "forsake" under the root HLQ.
Thus your statement that my argument requires changing the meaning of words does not give the full story. It is true that I never explicitly stated where I got "relieve" from in my links but I assumed you would have realised this having access to Classical Arabic dictionaries.
Now lets move onto the context argument...
As stated in my referenced links, the context of "relieve" fits. The only weakness I can see in my argument is that "head" (Ra-Alif-Siin) is used to mean a physical head most of the other occurrences (2196, 2196, 2279, 56, 7150, 1236, 1241, 1443, 1751, 194, 2094, 2165, 2219, 3212, 3765, 4448, 4827, 635). A possibility is that HLQ means "raise" as briefly discussed by myself and HK in the link. This was my initial understanding.
So, let's say it means "shave the head", here are some questions
What is the purpose of this head shaving?
What about bald men? Is this what "ailment of the head" refers to in your opinion?
If shaving of the head is for some sort of recognition factor then why in 4827 is it called for when entering "al masjid al haram", which would mean whether entering it or not you would still shave your head, thus it is unlikely for differentiation reasons. Unless one applies guesswork and says the head shaving in 4827 was a one off due to the victory.
When one is a victor in battle, they usually do not shave their head. The only possibility I can suggest for this is some sort of symbolic humility/submissiveness.Other alternatives
HLQ in both occurrences do not have to have the same meaning as they are different verb forms.
In 2196 it could mean "do not cancel your principle/capital" which would fit the context of offering. -
Peace, Wakas, all
Some verses are governing. and some are similar...
These are governing verses... and clear...
I would like to see a verse better than it then in guidance so I can follow it,,, So bring your translation of that same verse and lets see which is better...
peace
"You shall make it clear to the people and not conceal it"
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peace AW, all,
These are governing verses... and clear...
If you think they are clear / governing verses, that is up to you, but I prefer evidence based discussion over subjective opinion.
Just like someone might say 434 is clear and it means one can beat their wife. That is worthless as one would require them to say "it is clear because XYZ" where XYZ is actual Quranic evidence or logic etc not simply their opinion on what they think is clear or not.
We will see once Layth replies.
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peace,
434 As for those women from whom you fear desertion,then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them.
Who said beat them?
I asked you to bring a like verse from God if you truthful...
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peace AW,
It seems you have misunderstood my point. I will clarify.
If someone (anyone) says I think this is a clear (or as you term "governing" verse then this to me is worthless unless there is only one possible interpretation of the verse, e.g. "God is one", i.e. there is no other way to interpret a statement like that.
However, in the case we are discussing, there is at the very least unanswered questions, and alternatives that need to be weighed up. So for you to say it is clear/governing without providing Quranic evidence or logic as to why, then your statement is worthless in an evidence based discussion.
434 was an example. "beat" is the traditional view that some think is "clear", hence my use of this example.
I asked you to bring a like verse from God if you truthful...
I already said to you the way you word your questions is unclear, and asked you to be clearer, so if you can clarify what you mean by the above, then I will. I already referenced the usage of the roots/words in question and provided translations, hence not being sure what you are referring to.
Please note, if one wants to engage in discussion offering subjective opinion as their only evidence then feel free, but not with me.
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Peace,
Here is my evidence
2196 And complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then make what is affordable of donation, and do not shave your heads until the donation reaches its destination; but whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a rite. But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family is not present at the Sacred Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.
( Now will you bring me a verse that you think is better than this one... e.g. using a word other than " do not shave your heads' ect... ?)
The words " Do not " and the " regulations " in 2196 is what makes that verse governing... So it is a governing verse. It is a verse that God commands you to do and not to do something. And that is your "Quranic evidence."
Im not here to discuss. And I can and will study it... But im hear for an answer. Not to study. Im worn out on study.
And the Quran says if they dont bring you a Scripture from God that is better than the one I have, then they only follow there desires..ect.
So, what im askin you is
How do you think 2196 should be?
What is your interpretation of 2196?
What words would you use for 2196?
Bring 2196 for all to see... Bring a verse that is better than the one I have in guidance so I may follow it...
Peace,
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Be aware of God,
no you didnt.
You are following 4827,
4827 is a "simlar" verse.
It appears to me that you are using 4827 to frustrate 2196 and confuse... And we believe in 2196 and 4827... ( e.g. the shaving of the head, ect...)
I didnt ask you to bring me 4827, nor a web site, I asked for 2196...
that way we can weigh the alternatives up. ( e.g. compare the two translations/ alternatives ).
So type in your version of verse 2196... The whole verse...in other words bring a better translation of verse 2196 than this one...
Peace,
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Thank you for the advice on being aware of God. My advice is to be aware of reply 7 (I have highlighted the part you want)
peace,
Typing in "shave" in the search function for example brings up some past threads, one of which is
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8807.msg49208#msg49208Read in conjunction with
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9022.msg48647#msg48647The evidence is overwhelming.
A little hint it's the part above in bold and larger font size.
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peace,
o.k. thanks
il come back to this later, i got stuff to do right now.
2196 And complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then make what is affordable of donation, and do not shave your heads until the donation reaches its destination; but whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a rite. But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family is not present at the Sacred Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.
And complete the conference/symposium and the visit for God but if you are prevented (from completing it) then give what is easy of the offering and do not relieve your head (of this duty) until the offering reaches its permitted/lawful place and whoever is among you sick or with ailment of the head then redeem by abstinence or charity or observance but if safe/able then whoever enjoys in the visit to the conference/symposium then give what is easy of the offering and whoever couldn't find (a suitable offering) then an abstinence three days during the conference/symposium and seven when you return, that is ten complete, and that is for those whose people are not present/near the institute of acknowledging the restriction, and be conscious of The God and know that The God is severe in punishment.
And take the debate and the promotion for The God. Then if in need then what is easy from the guidance and don't cut off your principle until attaining the guidance what is made lawful. Then whoever that is amongst you unfit or with him disturbances from his principle then compensate from abstaining or being truthful or sacrifices. Then when secure then whoever maintains with the promotion towards the debate then what is easy from the guidance. Then those who did not find it, abstain three days in the debate and seven when you return. Those are ten as being complete. That is for those who had no members particpate in the restricted acts of compliance. And be aware of The God and know for The God is severe in retribution.
And complete the debate and the promotion for The God. Then if in need then get what is easy from the guidance and don't overlook your basic until attaining what is made lawful from the guidance. Then whoever that is amongst you unfit or with him disturbances from his basic then compensate from abstaining or charity or sacrifices. Then when secure then whoever maintains with the promotion towards the debate then get what is easy from the guidance. Then those who did not find it, abstain three days in the debate and seven when you return. Those are ten as being complete. That is for those who had no (family) members participate in the restricted acts of compliance. And be aware of The God and know for The God is severe in the retribution. (2196)
transliteration + literal translation side by side
Wa (and) atimmoo (complete) al hajja (the HJJ) wa (and) alAAuMRata (the 3MR) lil lahi (for God) fa-in (but if) ohsirtum (you prevented/confined) fama (then what) istaYSaRa (is easy) mina (from/of) alHaDYi (the offering/guidance) wala (and do not) taHLiQoo (cancel/relieve/high/sharp/active) ruoosakum (your head/principal) hatta (until) yablugha (reaches) alHaDYu (the offering/guidance) maHiLLahu (permitted/lawful place) faman (and whoever) kana (is) minkum (among you) MaReeDan (sick/ill) aw (or) bihi (with) athan (ailment) min (from/of) ra/sihi (head) fafidyatun (then redeem/exchange/ransom) min (from/of) SiYaMin (abstinence) aw (or) SaDaQatin (charity) aw (or) NuSuKin (observance) fa-itha (but if) amintum (safe/secure) faman (then whoever) taMaTaAAa (enjoys) bi (with/in) alAAumrati (the 3MR) ila (to) alhajji (the conference/symposium) fama (then what) istaYSaRa (is easy) mina (from/of) alhadyi (the offering/guidance) faman (and whoever) lam (not) yajid (find) fasiyamu (then abstain) thalathati (three) ayyamin (days) fee (in/on/during) alhajji (the HJJ) wa (and) sabAAatin (seven) itha (when) RaJaAAtum (you return) tilka (that) AAasharatun (is ten) kamilatun (complete) thalika (that) liman (for those) lam yakun (is not) ahluhu (his people) HaDiRee (present/near) almasjidi (the institute of acknowledging) alharami (the restriction) wa (and) ittaqoo (conscious) Allaha (The God) wa (and) iAAlamoo (know) anna (that) Allaha (The God) shadeedu (severe) al (the) AAiqabi (punishment)literal translation
And complete the conference/symposium and the visit for God but if you are prevented then what is easy from the offering/guidance and do not cancel/relieve/high/sharp/active your head/principal until the offering/guidance reaches its permitted/lawful place and whoever is among you sick or with ailment of their head then redeem/exchange/ransom from abstinence or charity or observance but if secure/able then whoever enjoys in the visit to the conference/symposium then what is easy of the offering/guidance and whoever couldn't find then abstain three days during the conference/symposium and seven when you return that is ten complete, that for those whose people are not present/near the institute of acknowledging the restriction, and be conscious of The God and know that The God is severe in punishment.Peace,
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This is what i think so far,
those who chose " debate "
there will be no fighting/ debate/ argument/ basless arguments ect... in the pilgramage.
And whoever inclines towards ill action in it we will let them taste a sever retribution...
Say" Do you debate us regarding God? He is our Lord and your Lord. There is no argument between us and you. God will gather us all and judge between us in what we dispute..."
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And complete the conference/symposium and the visit for God but if you are prevented then what is easy from the offering/guidance and do not cancel/relieve/high/sharp/active your head/principal until the offering/guidance reaches its permitted/lawful place and whoever is among you sick or with ailment of their head then redeem/exchange/ransom from abstinence or charity or observance but if secure/able then whoever enjoys in the visit to the conference/symposium then what is easy of the offering/guidance and whoever couldn't find then abstain three days during the conference/symposium and seven when you return that is ten complete, that for those whose people are not present/near the institute of acknowledging the restriction, and be conscious of The God and know that The God is severe in punishment.
( I wouldnt use the word "principal" instead of "head"... ) "head" is mentioned in both places..."head/principal" is not...
